JL F113 Advice &/or Alternatives - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 06-13-2013, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking for advice on alternatives/competitors to the JL F113 sub. I was really impressed by how well this sub blended for music in 2.1 and how it also performed in 5.1 for movies. My only reservation is cost. I really liked this sub, but at about $4k, I don't want to spend that if there is something better at that price point or equal at a lower price.

Intended use is 65% movie 35% music. I'd really like something that performs great with music.
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post #2 of 31 Old 06-13-2013, 02:21 PM
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Look at the Seaton Sound Submersive HP.

And here are some photos.

If you want something bigger with more power there are other options as well.
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post #3 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 11:27 AM
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The SVS SB13-Ultra could match the f113. There are very good professional reviews out there.

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post #4 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 12:02 PM
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I would take a look at the new Triax from PSA.
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/triax

It's at a great price while the pre-order pricing is in effect and for $200 more its also available in some really nice veneer finishes.
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post #5 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lablatz View Post

Looking for advice on alternatives/competitors to the JL F113 sub. I was really impressed by how well this sub blended for music in 2.1 and how it also performed in 5.1 for movies. My only reservation is cost. I really liked this sub, but at about $4k, I don't want to spend that if there is something better at that price point or equal at a lower price.

Intended use is 65% movie 35% music. I'd really like something that performs great with music.

Are you paying full price 4k? If so the suggestions made already are both very good. You can get a hell of a lot of sub for 4k.

at $3,299 to $3,499 Pre order price until early july is $2,799 textured black and $2,999 with veneer options.

Power Sound Audio Triax


At 2,5k ish

The Seaton Submersive HP

Those are the options I would look at you will get more output and get a quality sound as well that should equal the fathom.

Again it comes down to budget and how big of a sub you can fit / will tolerate in your house.


Some other options, you can choice just one instead of two if cost is a big issue.

Two SVS SB ultra 13's at $3198

Two Power Sound Audio XS30's at $2,183.10-$2,449.00

Two HSU ULS-15's at $2149-$2499

Two Rythmik audio F25's at $2798

ShaunH
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post #6 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 01:00 PM
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Just to be clear I'm not dissing on the fathom. Its a great sub but it also is size (very small) and WAF focused (very pretty). And if you can get past the size of the other subs many offering choices in veneers which might make it okay for WAF.

Also if you watching a lot movies you need a sub that play loud. Which will push you to either two of the lower prices options or one big sub (Triax, Submersive ecete)

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post #7 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 01:20 PM
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As great as a the JL F113 is, a SubM HP and Triax sub be able to blow it out of the water as far as output goes.

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post #8 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 03:22 PM
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Funk 18.0 or the 18.1 if you want lower cost. Bonus is they are crazy beautiful, so the wife should be happy.
Just a thought.

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post #9 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 03:29 PM
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What's the warranty on the Funk subs?

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post #10 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manwithnocape View Post

Funk 18.0 or the 18.1 if you want lower cost. Bonus is they are crazy beautiful, so the wife should be happy.
Just a thought.

Something the op should be aware of Funk Audio is in Canada so that might be an issue for some.

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post #11 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 03:35 PM
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A pair of Rythmik F15HP's would be a much better investment. If you are only interested in one sub then the PSA Triax for 2799.00 would be killer.
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post #12 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

A pair of Rythmik F15HP's would be a much better investment. If you are only interested in one sub then the PSA Triax for 2799.00 would be killer.

Woops thanks for reminding me basshead. I forgot the Triax pre order price is actually $2,799 or $2,999 with veneer. Until the first set of them ship in I think early July. I've edited my earlier post.

That would probably be my choice for one sub in that price range. Even at its regular price.

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post #13 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manwithnocape View Post

Funk 18.0 or the 18.1 if you want lower cost. Bonus is they are crazy beautiful, so the wife should be happy.
Just a thought.

+1 on this, go for the 18.0. Extremely high sound quality, tons of output, drop dead gorgeous. The platonic ideal of subwoofers, a perfect balance of everything.
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post #14 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Something the op should be aware of Funk Audio is in Canada so that might be an issue for some.

We ship mostly to the US, and international, so much so that for most products it costs the same to ship in Canada as it does to the US(we get great international shipping rates), and to the US there are no customs/duties as everything is made in Canada.

Our warranty is 2 years.

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Funk Audio
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post #15 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky Waves View Post

We ship mostly to the US, and international, so much so that for most products it costs the same to ship in Canada as it does to the US(we get great international shipping rates), and to the US there are no customs/duties as everything is made in Canada.

Our warranty is 2 years.

Just trying to point that out. Some people don't want to buy from outside their home country.

Also thanks for posting. I must have missed the warranty length...... i really have to start paying attention to the warranty on audio gear.

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post #16 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lablatz View Post

Looking for advice on alternatives/competitors to the JL F113 sub. I was really impressed by how well this sub blended for music in 2.1 and how it also performed in 5.1 for movies. My only reservation is cost. I really liked this sub, but at about $4k, I don't want to spend that if there is something better at that price point or equal at a lower price.

Intended use is 65% movie 35% music. I'd really like something that performs great with music.
A few years ago, I upgraded from a pair of JL F112's to a pair of Submersives. At the time, I posted the following. (Of course, I had F112's and you are considering F113's. Nonetheless, the F113's are only about 3 dB louder and have 1 Hz deeper extension, so keep that in mind as you read my comparison.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Ok, my JL F112's are sold, so now I feel like I can make some observations about the differences between the Submersives and the F112's. (I was refraining because I had the F112's advertised on this forum, and I didn't want to make any remarks that a potential buyer might find "disparaging" about the F112's. In fact I have nothing at all "bad" to say about the F112's. I have had a thoroughly enjoyable ownership experience with those subs). Nonetheless, I have moved on to the Submersives.

First off, if you saw the pic I posted earlier, the Submersives are quite bit bigger than the JL's. I'll re-post the pic here for convenience:



The JL's were the best subs I had ever heard for music. I have quite a few SACD's and DVD-A's with some excellent bass recordings. I also have quite a few concert DVD's, HD-DVD's and BluRays. The JL's made the bass on those recordings sound more like *music* than anything else I've ever heard. I was actually very reluctant to sell them because I was afraid I would never be able to duplicate that sound quality.

However, their performance for Home Theater left something to be desired. I have a THX Ultra2 speaker system, (Atlantic Technology 8200e's, 3 of the L/R's up front behind an Acoustically Transparent screen, with SR's for surrounds). They are driven by an Earthquake Cinenova amp, (325 wpc into 8 ohms, 650 wpc into 4-ohms). The speakers and amps were definitely capable of full Reference Level... but the JL subs were holding them back. On scenes with really deep VLF effects, I couldn't get much above -15 to -12 before the subs would hit the "limiters", (and the limiters on the JL's are really obnoxious, with their "clacking" sound).

In my room, the dual JL's could hit about 100 dB before the limiters kicked in, unless the content had bass below about 30 Hz. Then the max output dropped as the frequency dropped. Some of the VLF bass spectaculars, like Pulse, Cloverfield, M&C, WotW, Ironman etc., were not playable unless the MV was kept below -15.

I recently went to a friends' house to check out his theater. He's an AVS member, and he has a Klipsch THX Ultra2 speaker system with 4 Klipsch THX Ultra2 subs driven by a pair of the 1 kilowatt amps. His system is in a large, but fully sealed room. His system is easily capable of full RL at the seats, with headroom. I was floored by the sound, especially the bass. Right then and there, I decided I needed a subwoofer upgrade.

Enter the Submersives. Where the JL's were two 12" drivers in very small, sealed boxes, the Submersives are four 15" drivers in much larger sealed boxes. The JL drivers (probably) have more excursion (xMax) than the Seaton drivers. However the total air movement capability of four 15" drivers overwhelms the capability of two 12" drivers. Where the JL subs were moving like crazy to attempt to produce output, the four Seaton drivers are loafing along, barely breaking a sweat, producing the same, (and much more), output.

The resultant sound is...


...well, let's just say that the Submersives do everything the JL's did in terms of sound quality for music, (in fact, they provide the same sound quality at significantly higher SPL's), while at the same time, providing the massive output and extension I desired for Home Theater. Reference Level is now a piece of cake for my system, even with the bass spectacular's! In fact the system sounds like it has plenty of headroom left, even with the deepest LF soundtracks.

These Submersives are the best upgrade I have implemented in my system since I went with 3 identical front speakers behind an Acoustically Transparent screen. I have lost *nothing* in terms of sound quality and I have gained massive output capability and VLF extension.

Mark Seaton, I couldn't be happier. Your subs have definitely taken my system to the next level. The whole system plays back louder, cleaner and "better" with your subs than it ever did with the dual JL F112's*.

*Having said all that, I don't want, in any way, to disparage the JL subs. I think, for what they are, (small, sealed, well built and executed subs), they have no peer. They simply have limitations. I wanted to go beyond those limitations, and the Submersives allowed me to do so.


Craig

Good luck and enjoy the journey. smile.gif

Craig
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post #17 of 31 Old 06-15-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manwithnocape View Post

Funk 18.0 or the 18.1 if you want lower cost. Bonus is they are crazy beautiful, so the wife should be happy.
Just a thought.

Just one quick note, a Funk 18.0 won't be saving you any money at $3234 plus an extra $150 in you want it with a grill. That is if you were saying that it was cheaper then a SubM HP or Triax.

But they are very nice looking subs.
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post #18 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 01:11 PM
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Ken Kresiel DXD12012 wink.gif just wonderful sounding reference bass regardless of source playing , if your intent is accurate bass, low distortion and can disappear for music and track and place bass at all speakers in your set as though the had there own dedicated sub ( i've never heard any sub do this and is mind blowing ) you really need to hear what Ken's new sub can do!
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post #19 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ken Kresiel DXD12012 wink.gif just wonderful sounding reference bass regardless of source playing , if your intent is accurate bass, low distortion and can disappear for music and track and place bass at all speakers in your set as though the had there own dedicated sub ( i've never heard any sub do this and is mind blowing ) you really need to hear what Ken's new sub can do!

Ken Kresiel makes great subs no doubt. But sense the OP watches a good amount of a movies. The kresiel subs don't make as much sense. There are other options that are more suited to movies and still have good musicality.

Also at the price of the KK sub you can get a veneered Triax on pre order price or a submerisve in veneer. Both would beat the KK sub. More surface area, more displacement, bigger drivers, more amplifier power and so on.

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post #20 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 02:11 PM
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Ken Kresiel makes great subs no doubt. But sense the OP watches a good amount of a movies. The kresiel subs don't make as much sense. There are other options that are more suited to movies and still have good musicality.

I don't think you understand my post , I mentioned how the DXD12012 has the ability to pan with all speakers and place bass all around you with kick and depth and do it with accurate placement of effects within the sound field like nothing I've ever heard before from at this time one sub not two and here on these comments Am referring to movies! If you get a chance to hear one don't pass it up, you'll be amazed and perplexed . I won't even get into the fact its a clear upgrade path as all one needs to do is keep stacking until four high !

It more than makes since wink.gif
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post #22 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 05:15 PM
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I don't think you understand my post , I mentioned how the DXD12012 has the ability to pan with all speakers and place bass all around you with kick and depth and do it with accurate placement of effects within the sound field like nothing I've ever heard before from at this time one sub not two and here on these comments Am referring to movies! If you get a chance to hear one don't pass it up, you'll be amazed and perplexed . I won't even get into the fact its a clear upgrade path as all one needs to do is keep stacking until four high !

It more than makes since wink.gif

Trust me I understand you comment. The KK (DXD12012) sub sounds a lot like the Fathom line from JL audio. Small or reasonable size, great musicality, and good for moives. All in all one of the better mainstream (Non ID) subwoofers.

But as I said the OP can do much better, in terms of output, better movie soundtrack reproduction and lack of output compression. I would argue that Craig John's post made the post I'm trying to. You can't heat Physics and you can do better for you money that the JL or the KK (DXD12012). In that a larger sub will work less, have less distortion have more output. In other words more sub for you money.

Also the OP doesn't need to buy two subs. I mentioned the Power Sound Audio Triax. And others mentioned the Seaston Sumbmersive HP as well.

Here is a link if you haven't seen the Triax yet.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/prism/products/triax

It has more cone area, more driver displacement, more power (wattage), and is more likely meet the OP needs or at least get him the beast bang for the bunk. As others have mentioned the Submersive HP is also another good choice for the money.

And for the money where talking about (JL audio fathom F!13's go for $3,900-$4,000) retail. That is a lot of options out there.

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post #23 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 05:17 PM
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Also to the Op I hope you come back and tell us how your search is going. As you can see you have a lot of good options for your money. And if you wanted to go with a lower budget you also still have a lot of options.

Are you looking to spend 4k or do you want to go less? You weren't as clear on you budget.

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post #24 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I don't think you understand my post , I mentioned how the DXD12012 has the ability to pan with all speakers and place bass all around you with kick and depth and do it with accurate placement of effects within the sound field like nothing I've ever heard before from at this time one sub not two and here on these comments Am referring to movies! If you get a chance to hear one don't pass it up, you'll be amazed and perplexed . I won't even get into the fact its a clear upgrade path as all one needs to do is keep stacking until four high !

It more than makes since wink.gif
Your comments seem more like an endorsement of optimal subwoofer integration than about any property specific to the KK sub. ANY good sub that is properly integrated with the speakers and the room can do what you're describing. OTOH, ANY sub that is not properly integrated will be lacking in "kick and depth", (whatever depth is vis-a-vis a subwoofer???), or "placement of effects within the sound field" or "bass all around you."

Craig
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post #25 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 09:28 PM
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+1 on the funk audio 18.0

IMG_20130409_205205.jpg

Or make that +2?

IMG_20130409_205123.jpg
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post #26 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Trust me I understand you comment. The KK (DXD12012) sub sounds a lot like the Fathom line from JL audio. Small or reasonable size, great musicality, and good for moives. All in all one of the better mainstream (Non ID) subwoofers.

But as I said the OP can do much better, in terms of output, better movie soundtrack reproduction and lack of output compression. I would argue that Craig John's post made the post I'm trying to. You can't heat Physics and you can do better for you money that the JL or the KK (DXD12012). In that a larger sub will work less, have less distortion have more output. In other words more sub for you money.

Also the OP doesn't need to buy two subs. I mentioned the Power Sound Audio Triax. And others mentioned the Seaston Sumbmersive HP as well.

Here is a link if you haven't seen the Triax yet.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/prism/products/triax

It has more cone area, more driver displacement, more power (wattage), and is more likely meet the OP needs or at least get him the beast bang for the bunk. As others have mentioned the Submersive HP is also another good choice for the money.

And for the money where talking about (JL audio fathom F!13's go for $3,900-$4,000) retail. That is a lot of options out there.

Have you even heard the Triax ? as I thought it wasn't in the hands of end users yet! as for compression I haven't heard it compress. and lastly this isn't a JL or Seaton sub or the best sub for the money, its just an outstanding sub which I'm sure you never heard but seem to want to offer a lot of advice on, I saw the post and gave my opinion that's all!
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post #27 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Your comments seem more like an endorsement of optimal subwoofer integration than about any property specific to the KK sub. ANY good sub that is properly integrated with the speakers and the room can do what you're describing. OTOH, ANY sub that is not properly integrated will be lacking in "kick and depth", (whatever depth is vis-a-vis a subwoofer???), or "placement of effects within the sound field" or "bass all around you."

Craig

With all do respect, its not an endorsement and not just any sub, I'm just a simple end user here posting my findings and putting it into the best words I know how to, I leave the measurements to those who are better qualified to do so and I can say it measured very impressively. Keep in mind this is a single DXD12012 properly integrated and perhaps mid bass and good low extension down to 10hz may be better words than kick and depth and if what I posted above sounds odd ! well that's the point and didn't take 2-5 subs to do it and its corner loaded. And if you guys seem so interested about Ken's new sub maybe you should do some research on the more technical stuff and try to get a listen. smile.gif

Sorry it's not a Rythmik, Seaton ,SVS or Powersound sub all of which I admire and have never heard, but I did get it off the internet and its one of the few signed by Ken wink.gif
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post #28 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Have you even heard the Triax ? as I thought it wasn't in the hands of end users yet! as for compression I haven't heard it compress. and lastly this isn't a JL or Seaton sub or the best sub for the money, its just an outstanding sub which I'm sure you never heard but seem to want to offer a lot of advice on, I saw the post and gave my opinion that's all!

To be clear I wasn't try to provoke or be rude. And I I'm glad you posted your opinion that's what this forum is for. It just for what the OP is looking at price wise he needs to get the most sub he can. All subs compared are expensive and the OP should know all his options.

Of course we haven't heard the Triax, yet. But as I mentioned there are certain claims we can make from both an output and general ability from specs and simple physics and alignment of a sub woofer. Further No I haven't heard the KK sub but I don't need to to quantify its output ability. As said I'm sure its a good sub. But the OP is looking for something better than or at least as good the JL audio fathoms . I've heard subs in the same class such as the velodyne DD series as well as others more focused on output and as well as musicality such as the Klipsch TX ultra 2 system which I was able to push to the subwoofers limits (one 2 subs not 4 like Craig john heard.)

Also we have objective data for both the JL audio fathom and the KK sub

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/sub-zone-subwoofer-testing/63537-kreisel-dxd12012.html#axzz2JE5r2pqL

There not comparable directly but we can argue for the sake of fairness that there both in the same league more or less.

Again I'm not saying their not a hell of a sub. And the OP can choice or not choice whatever option he wants but he should know he can do better.

ShaunH
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post #29 of 31 Old 06-16-2013, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

To be clear I wasn't try to provoke or be rude. And I I'm glad you posted your opinion that's what this forum is for. It just for what the OP is looking at price wise he needs to get the most sub he can. All subs compared are expensive and the OP should know all his options.

Of course we haven't heard the Triax, yet. But as I mentioned there are certain claims we can make from both an output and general ability from specs and simple physics and alignment of a sub woofer. Further No I haven't heard the KK sub but I don't need to to quantify its output ability. As said I'm sure its a good sub. But the OP is looking for something better than or at least as good the JL audio fathoms . I've heard subs in the same class such as the velodyne DD series as well as others more focused on output and as well as musicality such as the Klipsch TX ultra 2 system which I was able to push to the subwoofers limits (one 2 subs not 4 like Craig john heard.)

Also we have objective data for both the JL audio fathom and the KK sub

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/sub-zone-subwoofer-testing/63537-kreisel-dxd12012.html#axzz2JE5r2pqL

There not comparable directly but we can argue for the sake of fairness that there both in the same league more or less.

Again I'm not saying their not a hell of a sub. And the OP can choice or not choice whatever option he wants but he should know he can do better.

I've read those and many more ( I did my home work before dropping the cash) and understand where your coming from, but if this where a crank it up contest or mine is the loudest ( outside) then dIY and options galore are available. but get it home and its another story and as I mentioned the DXD12012 is designed to be corner loaded(2-6 inches in fact from the wall) and one can add 4-6db to those numbers without the ills of being that tight in a corner. The DXD is with in the OP budget and in my opinion worth his consideration wink.gif
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post #30 of 31 Old 06-17-2013, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I've read those and many more ( I did my home work before dropping the cash) and understand where your coming from, but if this where a crank it up contest or mine is the loudest ( outside) then dIY and options galore are available. but get it home and its another story and as I mentioned the DXD12012 is designed to be corner loaded(2-6 inches in fact from the wall) and one can add 4-6db to those numbers without the ills of being that tight in a corner. The DXD is with in the OP budget and in my opinion worth his consideration wink.gif
I don't doubt the KK sub is a worthy contender and it's great that you enjoy yours. It sounds like you have your KK sub very well integrated in your system, and I congratulate you on that, especially if you accomplished it without measurements. Do you use any Room Correction?

Nonetheless, you made it sound like your sub had some "magical" properties that other subs don't have. All I'm pointing out is that what you're hearing is the effect of good system integration and not some magical properties of your specific subwoofer.

Corner loading of a subwoofer does yield increased output, and it can be as much as 6+ db. However, that increased output is caused by maximal excitation of all the room modes. If your room has a fairly even distribution of modes, then you'll see the extra output with fairly flat frequency response. However, many rooms don't have even distribution of modes. They're usually bunched around certain frequencies, at the expense of others. In those rooms, corner loading will yield boomy, one-note bass due to the maximal excitation of the unevenly distributed room modes. There is nothing "magical" about the KK sub that can overcome this phenomenon.

Again, I congratulate you on the excellent integration of your sub into your room and system. I just caution not to attribute to something it's not; some magical properties of your specific sub.

Craig
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