Thoughts and advice on Rythmik and PSA options (existing Empire owner) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-14-2013, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I've been researching my options for an upcoming sub purchase (hope to place order next week). I think I've narrowed it down to either Rythmik or PSA based on the many positive reviews here on the forum as well as the good customer support I have received so far directly from these vendors in soliciting advice. I could easily add HSU or SVS options to this list, but wanted to narrow down my options as much as possible before starting a thread. Also, when you factor in potential future upgrades, you could make an argument to save up some money to get a PSA Triax or Seaton SubM. While that is true and logical, it just won't work in my household. My wife can tolerate an annual $1,000 to $1,500 HT purchase, but a $2,500+ purchase is a non-starter.

The room is 16x20x10, but is mostly open on one side to the rest of the house. This is on the second floor and opens up to a loft/balcony/foyer area, so I don't have any illusions that I will be "pressurizing" this space. I am however looking for more output and my use is 95% HT (occasionally we will throw in a concert DVD, but no critical music listening). The room is a multi-purpose "family room", so there are some placement limitations I have to deal with. I can fit a larger sub in the front right corner of the room. Beyond that, I am limited to fitting subs under existing end tables. These are oversized end tables so they can accomodate subs up to 26x26x22. I currently have an Epik Empire located in the front right corner of the room. The Empire has good mid-bass impact, but seems to be lacking in the low end, at least in my room. I intend to initially move the Empire nearfield to one of the end tables to see if I can get it to play well with the new sub. If I can get the Empire to blend well with one of the new subs, that would be great. Having said that, I am going into this knowing that if the Empire does not play nicely, I will find a new home for it, and look to add a new Rythmik or PSA down the road. One more thing, I have a Denon 4311, so will be using Auyssey Sub EQ to try to mange the two subs. Both PSA and Rythmik were enthusiastic that Audyssey would be able to handle two different subs and make them play nicely together.

Here is my short list and thoughts on each option. I went in with a ~$1,500 budget, and all of these options are within +/- $200 of each other, so I do not consider price a deciding factor at this point.

1. PSA XV30f - this thing looks great on paper and is seemingly the best vlaue of the bunch. Although there is not a lot of feedback on the XV30f, I expect it to be very similar, if not identical to the XV30 which has a lot of positive feedback and reviews. I also like that if I were to need get rid of the Empire, I could replace it with one or two XV15's down the road which could be placed near field under the end tables. I think the combo of an XV30f up front (~12 ft from listening position) and two XV15's on either side (~3ft from lstening position), would be a good combo, and it should be easier to blend the XV15's with the XV30f (same driver, ported design). My hesitation with the XV30f is mostly cosmetics/aesthics. While the foot print will work in the up front position, the height will certianly bring attention to itself. My wife is usually pretty lenient when it comes to these things, but she is concerned with having something that looks like a small refrigerator in the front of the room. Also, I'm not crazy about the finish, but that is not a deal breaker. My last concern is that with all of the talk about using identical subs, I would be eliminating that as an upgrade path down the road. There is simply no way I could locate another XV30f or even an XV30 in the room. So I am left with non-identical subs (either XV30f + Empire or XV30f + XV15(s))

2. 2x PSA XV15s - following up on the last point, if having identical subs is ultimately the "best" route, then I could get two XV15's now and add a third one down the road. I would end up with three XV15's located throughout the room, which I assume would give me the smoothest response throughout the room, but I also think this would give me the least output. I am resistant to this approach, as I would really like to have at least one high output sub up front. PSA was encouraging that I would be able to blend an XV30f with either the Empire or the XV15's, so that would be my preference over the all XV15 option.

3. Rythmik FV15HP - this seems to be the safest in the Rythmik lineup from the standpoint of being a proven entity with a good track record, published numbers and lots of happy owners. It fits my space better and I prefer the finish over the PSA options. If it does not play well with the Empire, the Rythmik upgrade path is less clear. Given my placement restraints, I do not think I could squeeze another FV15 or FV15HP under an existing end table. If I want to stay with ported options, I would need to go down to the LV12R. Over time I could end up with the FV15HP + 2 LV12R's with the LV12R's being nearfield. If I want to stick with 15" drivers, however I would be looking at either an F15, F15HP, or E15. At that point, Rythmik starts to become significantly more expensive than PSA, and also have the same issue of blending a ported sub with sealed sub(s).

4. Rythmik F25 - this is another one that looks good on paper and is potentially the best match for the existing Empire. The enclosure is significantly shorter than the PSA XV30f and would basically sit at cabinet height (33"), which is a good thing, and prefer the finish over PSA. If I were able to buy a single sub, and not have to worry about future upgrades, then I think this would be my first choice. Rythmik seems to think that Audyssey can handle F25/Empire combo as they are both sealed 2x15 designs. My hesitations with the F25 is that there does not seem to be anyone using one yet. There are reviews out there on the older version which had a single 600W amp driving the two 15" drivers, but they were underwhelming for HT use. I think the consenus was that for HT use the FV15HP which had an upgraded driver was better than the F25. But the new F25 has two 400W amps driving the 15" woofers separately. I'm not sure how that changes the FV15HP vs F25 comparison for HT usage as there are no reviews out yet on the new F25, but it might be worth taking the chance.

To sum up my thoughts, if there is a good chance that I will be able to keep the Empire, then I think I would favor the Rythmik options and probably would take a chance on the F25 over the FV15HP. If trying to find a sub to complement/supplement the Empire is a fool's errand, then I think I would be better off with the PSA line up. Any thoughts, advice or experiences would be greatly appreciated. I would be particularly interested in 1) anyone who has used an Empire with another brand sub and how it worked out, and 2) anyone who has heard the newer Rythmik F25 (although I already posted in the dedicated Rythmik thread).

Thanks in advance for any feedback or advice.

Treads.
treads is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-14-2013, 01:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,367
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 1037
I have an Empire and in consideration of adding another sub to it I think it would match up better with the XS30 although it's nice they've added the XV30f in terms of footprint (and looks)...just my thought. Otherwise I've thought about an AIY dual opposed. At least until I can afford dual Submersive HPs....smile.gif

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is offline  
Old 06-14-2013, 02:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,136
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 440 Post(s)
Liked: 629
Normally for adding subs, you want the subs to match or at least a very similar performance profile. However, in the case of the Empire, there isn't another sub out there which is quite like it. I would use the Empire as a mid bass module like Hsu's MBM-12, and get another sub with has great deep bass. This being the case, I wouldn't get another sealed sub. I would go for the FV15HP, of the subs you listed it is the deepest tuned, and it will have the greatest output around its tuning point. You might think about using a high pass filter on the empire to keep it from stressing in the deeper frequencies that the FV15HP would handle with aplomb. You might consider low passing the deeper stuff to the FV15HP as well. The advantages of separating the bandwidths which the subs have to deal with is when the amplifiers are given a narrower band, they can devote more of their energy to that spectrum which raises headroom overall. Another advantage to this approach is the locations in most rooms for the best deep, mid, and upper bass are rarely the same, so place the subs where their strengths are more optimally used.
shadyJ is offline  
Old 06-14-2013, 03:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,567
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Liked: 155
The Empire is a good subwoofer and delivers nice mid-bass. Looking for a stronger low end sub may or may not give you what you are looking for. Due to the room it may not be able to be pressurized with your budget and room restrains. Going for under 20 Hz or around there performance may add little if it will not pressurized the area. since this area of the frequency band is felt more than heard. A better option would be a strong sub 25 Hz and above performance. Along these lines, a Rythmik or Chase sub may be a better choice. Also consider a couple of smaller sub can be strategicly placed and provide a more even bass response in the room which is an important consideration.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is offline  
Old 06-14-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Thanks for the replies so far.

Loveinthehd - I did look at the XS30 as probably the closest match to the Empire. The funny thing is, if they were still making Empires a few months ago, I would have probably just purchased one and been good for a year or so until upgraditis set in. When it became clear that the Empire was not going to be available anymore, the first sub I looked at was the XS30. But even at $1,149 shipped price, it is considerably more than the Empire would have been (especially factoring in the repeat customer discount). So I started looking at other subs in the $1,000 - $1,500 price range, which lead me to my new short list. I figure if I am not going to have identical subs, I should not necessarily tie myself to the Empire design. Also, I think the other subs provide a better path forward should I need to ditch the Empire down the road.

ShadyJ - I would love to get a setup like that to work, which would mean being able to keep the Empire and add a Rythmik. I stated in the Epik owners thread that I thought the Empire would make a great mid-bass module. The problem is, I've been told by several folks who are more knowledgeable on this subject than I am (that probably includes the majority of posters on AVS) that splitting the frequency band for subs is very hard to do satisfactorily. That does not mean it is not worth experimenting. After all I already own the Empire, so I might well invest a little effort in to making the most of it before moving forward. I have considered getting a set of in-line high pass filters, which are inexpensive enough, or even experimenting with a miniDSP to try to accomplish this.

derrickdj1 - I hear you, and as I said above, that seems to be the consensus opinion. That's why I have tried to factor in a "Plan B" in to the future upgrade path. I would still rather have a larger sub upfront with two smaller subs located nearfield (i.e. 1 XV30f + 2 XV15's or 1 F25 + 2 F15's) just because I don't want to be limited to three small (relative term) subs, if I could have 1 large and two small subs.

Thanks again for the help!
treads is offline  
Old 06-14-2013, 07:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,443
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1705
I thinkn your better off selling the empire and going with a different set of subs. I am going to suggest dual xv15's nearfield, then add a xv30f when the funds are available.
oneeyeblind likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 06-14-2013, 07:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,367
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 1037
Treads...let me know if you're in my area if you're going to dump the Empire...

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is offline  
Old 06-15-2013, 04:38 AM
Advanced Member
 
oneeyeblind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 774
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I thinkn your better off selling the empire and going with a different set of subs. I am going to suggest dual xv15's nearfield, then add a xv30f when the funds are available.

I agree sell the empire, I would be uneasy about mixing and matching with it. That and you can a get a new sub with a warranty and epiks resent history isn't promising.

As for you room you sound like you have a big room. And you defiantly want to get as much sub as you can. What have rythmik audio and PSA recommended to you?

All of you options seem good. I don't know if it will fit but their is a B stock XV 30 at PSA

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/outlet-center/products/xv30b

ShaunH
oneeyeblind is online now  
Old 06-15-2013, 04:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
oneeyeblind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 774
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Just a thought if you sell the empire, will you wife let you go for dual XVf 30's because that would be my choice. That would get you plenty of mid bass and a lot of low end.

ShaunH
oneeyeblind is online now  
Old 06-15-2013, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Loveinthehd - I am in SW Florida, so about as far away as possible. I did put a feeler out in the Epik owners thread to see if anyone in the area was interested in buying or selling an Empire, but got no hits.

Both Rythmik and PSA were encouraging that Audyssey SubEQ would be able to handle the Empire with one of their offerings. They were less confident that I would be able to set up the Empire as a mid-bass module.

No way I can fit 2 XV30f's in the room, the problem is there is no wall space, and the room is already filled with furniture.
treads is offline  
Old 06-15-2013, 02:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,367
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 1037
That Epik thread with all those expecting them to go belly up isn't doing your resale value any good these days.....otoh you could just wait for the new 18" Epik smile.gif

Currently I'm using a mixture of two lesser subs (not sealed but not exactly ported either, they have two passive radiators each) with the Epik and it helps my big space especially with music but not ideal for LFE but according to my Omnimic I'm still doing fine even sub 20Hz. Sounds pretty good but can only imagine what a couple big ported subs with lower extension capabilities might sound like with it.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Thanks to everyone for the feedback and advice, and thanks to PSA and Rythmik for all the emails. I went ahead and pulled the trigger today and ordered a sub. I'll let you know how it goes once I get everything up and running.
treads is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cowboys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 106
A sub?
Cowboys is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,367
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 1037
We're supposed to guess which sub got the nod?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 01:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 2,965
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Liked: 241
One thing that I'm puzzled about is the empire being used for mid bass. From everything I've read it can handle down into the teens with no problem. It can do more spl at the higher frequencies, but with audyssey, you should be able to eq reasonably flat down into the teens. Ricci shows 93db at 12.5Hz and 98db at 16Hz . Not the best out there, but exceptional for a mid bass module.
KidHorn is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Sorry about that, I ended up going with the Rythmik F25.

I really liked the PSA offerings, and think they represent the best bang for the buck out there (which is my typical m.o.), but I could not fit the XV30 and the XV30f while it would fit, was just too tall that I think it would draw too much attention to itself. If I had a dedicated theater room, as opposed to a converted family room, I think I would have went with PSA, but then again, if a had a dedicated theater room I would have apporached this whole decision differently.

That left me with Rythmik and the choice between the F25 and the FV15HP. I was leaning toward the FV15HP at first because its ported design is probably more appropriate for my large open room, but ulitmately went with the F25 because 1) it gives me the best chance of blending well with the Empire (both have 2 15" drivers in a sealed enclosure) and 2) if the Empire does not work out, I thnik the F25 gives me a better potential upgrade path. Given my unique placement limitations, I would not be able to add a second FV15HP, and in fact would have to drop down to LV12R (12" driver 300W amp) if I were to add a second or third sub down the road. Whereas, with the F25, there are several sealed options that meet my space requirements (F15, F15HP, E15, D15). So if the Empire does not work out, I can try to get rid of it and add one or two F15's nearfiled which use the same driver and slightly smaller amp (370W vs. 400W) as compared to the F25.

If all else fails, I can always add some bass shakers to the main listening couch to simulate to <20hz stuff smile.gif
treads is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

One thing that I'm puzzled about is the empire being used for mid bass. From everything I've read it can handle down into the teens with no problem. It can do more spl at the higher frequencies, but with audyssey, you should be able to eq reasonably flat down into the teens. Ricci shows 93db at 12.5Hz and 98db at 16Hz . Not the best out there, but exceptional for a mid bass module.

Firt off, know that I do not own an SPL meter, so I basically base my thoughts on feel and listening experience. When I first got the Empire it replaced an eD A5-350 with the 550W amp. One of the first things I noticed about the Empire was the excellent mid-bass. Again, I do not have any measurements to confirm this, but I distinctly remember watching the movie "Drive" and I almost jumped out of my seat during one of the gun fight scenes. I thought I could feel the gun shots in my chest, which is a sensation I never experienced with the A5-350.

Where I was less impressed with the Empire was in some of the more tradtional shake your seat type bass. I use a test disk (available here on AVS) with several bass heavy scenes from WOTW, U571, FOTP, etc. and thought the Empire was less impressive creating that seat shaking feel. That may be entirely due to the size of my large open room, and the current location of the sub. I am hoping that adding a second sub (albeit from a different mfg) and moving the Empire nearfield will add to explosiveness, while maintaining tight midbass. I will not even begin to try to understand what Audyssey does, but my plan is to hook up both subs and see what XT32 and SubEQ can do for me.
treads is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 02:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,367
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 1037
Quote:
Originally Posted by treads View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Where I was less impressed with the Empire was in some of the more tradtional shake your seat type bass. I use a test disk (available here on AVS) with several bass heavy scenes from WOTW, U571, FOTP, etc. and thought the Empire was less impressive creating that seat shaking feel. That may be entirely due to the size of my large open room, and the current location of the sub. I am hoping that adding a second sub (albeit from a different mfg) and moving the Empire nearfield will add to explosiveness, while maintaining tight midbass. I will not even begin to try to understand what Audyssey does, but my plan is to hook up both subs and see what XT32 and SubEQ can do for me.

Well, if you really want to "see" what XT32 and SubEQ do you'll have to measure since Audyssey doesn't share eq settings with the user, let alone let you tweak them. You can do so fairly easily and relatively cheaply with a USB mic and some software like REW.

I started with the Empire as being my first good sub, so not sure what I may be missing down low. My room is also open somewhat (can close off parts but a stairwell can't be) and also pretty large (neighborhood of 4500 cuft), and adding subs, even though less capable, made a definite difference. I'm not nearfield to any of them, but still feel plenty of rumbling at the seat level...although probably not as much as if I had a sealed room or several Empires...(or Submersives, Captivators, etc).

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:47 PM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by treads View Post

Sorry about that, I ended up going with the Rythmik F25.

You asked me to stop by, read your thread and add anything I might. Looks like it's too late as you already pulled the trigger. So here's my add to your thread regarding your choice in the F25.........SWEET!

I (and of course everybody else here) will look forward to your first impression comments regarding the F25.

Nice choice.

-
oneeyeblind likes this.
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 6,594
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1242 Post(s)
Liked: 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You asked me to stop by, read your thread and add anything I might. Looks like it's too late as you already pulled the trigger. So here's my add to your thread regarding your choice in the F25.........SWEET!

I (and of course everybody else here) will look forward to your first impression comments regarding the F25.

Nice choice.

-

+1
jbrown15 is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Thanks BeeMan, I had to make the purchase as I have been spending way too much time researching subs and too little time working lately. Your comments in the other thread and one last phone call to Rythmik were enough to finally push me over the edge!
treads is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:55 PM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
...biggrin.gif
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,443
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1705
Ah man I am jealous...the F25 was the sub I initially wanted 3mo ago. However they were not shipping at that time. Let us know how you like it!!
basshead81 is offline  
Old 06-18-2013, 11:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 2,965
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Liked: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by treads View Post

Firt off, know that I do not own an SPL meter, so I basically base my thoughts on feel and listening experience. When I first got the Empire it replaced an eD A5-350 with the 550W amp. One of the first things I noticed about the Empire was the excellent mid-bass. Again, I do not have any measurements to confirm this, but I distinctly remember watching the movie "Drive" and I almost jumped out of my seat during one of the gun fight scenes. I thought I could feel the gun shots in my chest, which is a sensation I never experienced with the A5-350.

Where I was less impressed with the Empire was in some of the more tradtional shake your seat type bass. I use a test disk (available here on AVS) with several bass heavy scenes from WOTW, U571, FOTP, etc. and thought the Empire was less impressive creating that seat shaking feel. That may be entirely due to the size of my large open room, and the current location of the sub. I am hoping that adding a second sub (albeit from a different mfg) and moving the Empire nearfield will add to explosiveness, while maintaining tight midbass. I will not even begin to try to understand what Audyssey does, but my plan is to hook up both subs and see what XT32 and SubEQ can do for me.

You're right that without eq the empire gives out a lot more spl at higher frequencies than lower. Audyssey will do it's best to create a flat curve, so with the empire, in most situations, it will boost the lower frequencies relative to the higher frequencies. There are better subs than the empire for the lower frequencies, like the one you just bought, but the empire can deliver at all audible frequencies.
KidHorn is offline  
Old 06-18-2013, 09:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 6,443
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 1705
Im sure you know this but boosting lower frequencies reduces headroom.
oneeyeblind likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 07-17-2013, 02:33 PM
Senior Member
 
bkeeler10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Utah
Posts: 489
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Treads, we really need a review of your F25. As you said, there's not much out there on it . . .
oneeyeblind likes this.

bkeeler10 is offline  
Old 08-30-2013, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
treads's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
First Impressions, finally!

Sorry to be so late in posting. I have been away from home most of the summer, so I had little chance to set up and listen to the new F25. It was actually delivered to my office while I was away and sat there for almost a month before I was able to get it home. I did initially hook it up over one weekend at home, but was not able to actually put it through its paces. I still have not done a full calibration as I am waiting on a new amp, so I will need to go through the full Audessey set up at that point. I did run the Audyssey quick set up with 3 measurement points and have now had the chance to run through a few demo dvd's, so I can at least give my first impressions.

1) Fit, finish, etc. - The sub is definitely solid and well built, and I like the finish. I would have preferred a matte black finish to match the other speakers in my set up, but the black oak finish of the F25 is very subtle and does not really bring attention to itself. The sub itself is much bigger than I had pictuired in my mind by simply holding up a tape measure to the space that I was intending to locate at. It does fit however, and after the initial shock, seems to blend in and do not notice it any more than when the empire sat in the same spot.

2) Blending w/ Empire - as mentioned at the beginning of this thread, my goal was to hopefully get a sub that would allow me to keep my existing Empire in service. Both Rythmik and PSA advised that they thought this would be possible with Audessey XT32 and Sub EQ. I relocated the Empire nearfield, underneath an oversized endtable at one end of the main listening position couch. I have to say, that to my untrained ear, Audyssey certainly seems to be doing its job. Keep in mind that I did not do the full Audessey set up yet, and only used three measurement positions to generate an EQ. I was basically looking for two things in my initial listening tests, 1) was overall sub perfermance improved with the dual sub setup, and 2) would locating the Empire nearfield make the bass localized to the empire. First, there was definite improvement, which I will discuss more below. Second, the bass was not localized or directional. At one point, I had to put my hand on the Empire driver to confirm it was functioning, and of course it was. So overall happy with the blending between the two subs, and do not feel an immediate need to replace the Empire. Having said that, and knowing myself, I will likely eventually switch out the Empire with one or two sealed 15" Rythmiks. I need to save up some funds for that and need to find a suitable home for the Empire first.

3) Overall sub performance - I am very happy with the improved sub performance. The best way I can describe the difference in performance is that I was able to significantly reduce main listening volume, while still having better LFE. With single Empire located in the front of the room, I would typically have to raise the volume to -10 to -15 db from reference to get any real tactile sensation of LFE. Even at those levels, the low end LFE seemed lacking compared to the excellent mid-bass. Raising the MV above -10 db did increase the LFE, but the overall listening level was just not comfortable. Even at -10 to -15 db, everything else was equally loud, which did not always agree with the wife and kids sleeping patterns, and could be fatiguing to my ears. Anything over -25db and the LFE would basically disappear. This is after I trimmed up the sub channel through Audesssey. I had previously experimented with raising the level directly on the Empire after Audessey calibration, which helped some, but seemed to muddy the bass in LFE heavy scenes. Now with the F25+Empire set up, I can listen to the same material at -25db with great LFE and appropriate levels for dialogue, etc. Cranking the system up to -15db shakes the entire house, but does not sound muddy or otherwise sloppy. It still has a tight, articulate sound to it. I have not gone past -10db, and don't really see the need to. My primary goal in adding the second sub, was to improve the tactile LFE feel in movies with deep bass tracks. My test DVD's include scenes from WOTW, Master and Commander, U571, etc., and those scenes really come alive with this setup. So again, I am overall very happy with the addition of the F25.

4) Customer service - One quick note on Rythmik customer service. As I mentioned above, the F25 was delivered while I was away. When I initially received tracking confirmation from UPS, it had a signed by name that I did not recognize. I called my office, and the office manager said they did not receive any large packages, so I became concerned and immediately contacted Rythmik. They were very professional in helping me track it down, and it was Rythmik that determined it actually was deliviered to my office. Apparently UPS delivered it to a side entrance and the employee who signed for it did not think to mention it to the office manager (that is another story entirely). I felt a little foolish for raising the concern with Rythmik, when the package was in my office all along, but the people at Rythmik completely understood and were very gracious about it.

I'm not sure how helpful the above review will be in that I am not able to directly compare the F25 to any other sub (i.e. the FV15HP, or one of the PSA subs), but I can say that I am very happy with the purchase and think the F25 represents a great value for a well built sub from a top notch vendor.
treads is offline  
Old 08-31-2013, 12:52 AM
Senior Member
 
femi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Smyrna, GA
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Good review treads.
femi is online now  
Old 08-31-2013, 09:43 AM
 
BeeMan458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Magalia, CA
Posts: 8,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by treads View Post

Now with the F25+Empire set up, I can listen to the same material at -25db with great LFE and appropriate levels for dialogue, etc. Cranking the system up to -15db shakes the entire house, but does not sound muddy or otherwise sloppy. It still has a tight, articulate sound to it. I have not gone past -10db, and don't really see the need to. My primary goal in adding the second sub, was to improve the tactile LFE feel in movies with deep bass tracks. My test DVD's include scenes from WOTW, Master and Commander, U571, etc., and those scenes really come alive with this setup.



Eddie Money: "Think I'm In Love"

...biggrin.gif

-
BeeMan458 is offline  
Old 09-01-2013, 03:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
doublewing11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Timber Country!
Posts: 3,879
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by treads View Post

First Impressions, finally!

Sorry to be so late in posting. I have been away from home most of the summer, so I had little chance to set up and listen to the new F25. It was actually delivered to my office while I was away and sat there for almost a month before I was able to get it home. I did initially hook it up over one weekend at home, but was not able to actually put it through its paces. I still have not done a full calibration as I am waiting on a new amp, so I will need to go through the full Audessey set up at that point. I did run the Audyssey quick set up with 3 measurement points and have now had the chance to run through a few demo dvd's, so I can at least give my first impressions.

1) Fit, finish, etc. - The sub is definitely solid and well built, and I like the finish. I would have preferred a matte black finish to match the other speakers in my set up, but the black oak finish of the F25 is very subtle and does not really bring attention to itself. The sub itself is much bigger than I had pictuired in my mind by simply holding up a tape measure to the space that I was intending to locate at. It does fit however, and after the initial shock, seems to blend in and do not notice it any more than when the empire sat in the same spot.

2) Blending w/ Empire - as mentioned at the beginning of this thread, my goal was to hopefully get a sub that would allow me to keep my existing Empire in service. Both Rythmik and PSA advised that they thought this would be possible with Audessey XT32 and Sub EQ. I relocated the Empire nearfield, underneath an oversized endtable at one end of the main listening position couch. I have to say, that to my untrained ear, Audyssey certainly seems to be doing its job. Keep in mind that I did not do the full Audessey set up yet, and only used three measurement positions to generate an EQ. I was basically looking for two things in my initial listening tests, 1) was overall sub perfermance improved with the dual sub setup, and 2) would locating the Empire nearfield make the bass localized to the empire. First, there was definite improvement, which I will discuss more below. Second, the bass was not localized or directional. At one point, I had to put my hand on the Empire driver to confirm it was functioning, and of course it was. So overall happy with the blending between the two subs, and do not feel an immediate need to replace the Empire. Having said that, and knowing myself, I will likely eventually switch out the Empire with one or two sealed 15" Rythmiks. I need to save up some funds for that and need to find a suitable home for the Empire first.

3) Overall sub performance - I am very happy with the improved sub performance. The best way I can describe the difference in performance is that I was able to significantly reduce main listening volume, while still having better LFE. With single Empire located in the front of the room, I would typically have to raise the volume to -10 to -15 db from reference to get any real tactile sensation of LFE. Even at those levels, the low end LFE seemed lacking compared to the excellent mid-bass. Raising the MV above -10 db did increase the LFE, but the overall listening level was just not comfortable. Even at -10 to -15 db, everything else was equally loud, which did not always agree with the wife and kids sleeping patterns, and could be fatiguing to my ears. Anything over -25db and the LFE would basically disappear. This is after I trimmed up the sub channel through Audesssey. I had previously experimented with raising the level directly on the Empire after Audessey calibration, which helped some, but seemed to muddy the bass in LFE heavy scenes. Now with the F25+Empire set up, I can listen to the same material at -25db with great LFE and appropriate levels for dialogue, etc. Cranking the system up to -15db shakes the entire house, but does not sound muddy or otherwise sloppy. It still has a tight, articulate sound to it. I have not gone past -10db, and don't really see the need to. My primary goal in adding the second sub, was to improve the tactile LFE feel in movies with deep bass tracks. My test DVD's include scenes from WOTW, Master and Commander, U571, etc., and those scenes really come alive with this setup. So again, I am overall very happy with the addition of the F25.

4) Customer service - One quick note on Rythmik customer service. As I mentioned above, the F25 was delivered while I was away. When I initially received tracking confirmation from UPS, it had a signed by name that I did not recognize. I called my office, and the office manager said they did not receive any large packages, so I became concerned and immediately contacted Rythmik. They were very professional in helping me track it down, and it was Rythmik that determined it actually was deliviered to my office. Apparently UPS delivered it to a side entrance and the employee who signed for it did not think to mention it to the office manager (that is another story entirely). I felt a little foolish for raising the concern with Rythmik, when the package was in my office all along, but the people at Rythmik completely understood and were very gracious about it.

I'm not sure how helpful the above review will be in that I am not able to directly compare the F25 to any other sub (i.e. the FV15HP, or one of the PSA subs), but I can say that I am very happy with the purchase and think the F25 represents a great value for a well built sub from a top notch vendor.

Interesting.........

I'm thinking of using either two F25's or two F15's for smoothing behind second row seating............................
doublewing11 is offline  
 

Tags
Fv15hp Subwoofer
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off