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post #1 of 16 Old 06-14-2013, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Guys

My SB13 arrived yesterday. Will be hooking up and testing over weekend.

I have a 17'w x 12' d x 8' h room. It's open to kitchen in two places at front and stairs at right side and has a brick fireplace on left. Rear wall is 70% windows and door. Seats are inches from rear wall and there are no room treatments as there's is actually very little wall space with all openings, doors and windows. Nevertheless, I'm sure the SB13 will be a vast improvment over my Prestige S10.

I read the user guide and it says if you have EQ in the AVR just use that. I have a Denon 4311CI with MultiXT32. I'm just wondering what all you existing owners ended up doing wrt PEQ / XT32 and if any of you tried the Room Compensation?

Regards

Mark
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post #2 of 16 Old 06-14-2013, 12:54 PM
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XT32 is a room correction software that will eq your sub as part of it's routine, I'd start with that. Do you have your own measurement gear if you are going to attempt to eq on your own?

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post #3 of 16 Old 06-14-2013, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_anderson_u View Post

Hi Guys

My SB13 arrived yesterday. Will be hooking up and testing over weekend.

I have a 17'w x 12' d x 8' h room. It's open to kitchen in two places at front and stairs at right side and has a brick fireplace on left. Rear wall is 70% windows and door. Seats are inches from rear wall and there are no room treatments as there's is actually very little wall space with all openings, doors and windows. Nevertheless, I'm sure the SB13 will be a vast improvment over my Prestige S10.

I read the user guide and it says if you have EQ in the AVR just use that. I have a Denon 4311CI with MultiXT32. I'm just wondering what all you existing owners ended up doing wrt PEQ / XT32 and if any of you tried the Room Compensation?

Regards

Mark
Many of us use Audyssey with excellent results, and XT32 is the best of the Audyssey iterations. It should do a good job for you. There is no "PEQ" in the 4311CI. There is only a "graphic EQ". A "PEQ" has adjustable center frequencies for each filter. The graphic EQ has fixed center frequencies of 63 Hz, 125, 250, 500, 1K, 2K, 4K, 8K and 16KHz.

More importantly, if you use Audyssey, the EQ is disabled, and if you use the EQ, Audyssey is disabled, so they are mutually exclusive. You would only want to use the EQ if you can specifically identify the problem frequencies and the problem frequencies exactly coincide with the fixed center frequencies in the filters. IOW, you would need measuring equipment to help identify what the issues are in the room and then the GREAT fortune to have them line up exactly with the filter frequencies. If you have that happen, then they're useful for correction; otherwise they're just a glorified set of tone controls.

Bottom line, just use Audyssey and it will do about 512x as good a job as the EQ, and it will do it automatically. If you have questions, there is a huge Audyssey thread that is quite active. The folks on there are very helpful. http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1 The first post has a Setup Guide and an FAQ, both of which should answer every question you might have.

Craig

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post #4 of 16 Old 06-14-2013, 01:08 PM
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Craig---Curious, does the 4311 not also provide for another set of eq frequencies for the sub itself? My Onkyo does (and they're not PEQ either)....but I just use Audyssey for the reasons you explain. Although I may some day consider doing more, Audyssey is so much easier smile.gif

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post #5 of 16 Old 06-14-2013, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

XT32 is a room correction software that will eq your sub as part of it's routine, I'd start with that. Do you have your own measurement gear if you are going to attempt to eq on your own?

Thanks. I have REW and calibrated Mic
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post #6 of 16 Old 06-14-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Craig---Curious, does the 4311 not also provide for another set of eq frequencies for the sub itself? My Onkyo does (and they're not PEQ either)....but I just use Audyssey for the reasons you explain. Although I may some day consider doing more, Audyssey is so much easier smile.gif
The 4311CI only EQ's the L/R channels. It has no separate EQ for the sub. It does have an adjustable LPF of LFE, but that's not an EQ; just a low pass filter that only affects the LFE channel. It also has adjustable crossovers for each channel, but again, those are not EQ filters.

The Onkyo only has a few preset center frequency filters for the subwoofer: “25Hz”, “40Hz”, “63Hz”, “100Hz”, or “160Hz”. Only 3 of these are useful if you have an 80 Hz crossover, and then they're not adjustable for center frequency or filter width. You can only adjust the magnitude at those exact filters and the 1/3 octave bandwidths. If your problems lie outside those ranges, (and they virtually always do), then the EQ filters are worthless.

I can think of no reason to use the EQ in the receiver instead of Audyssey. The EQ has far less precision, no adjustability and it only EQ's a very few bands in the frequency domain. Whereas Audyssey actually measures the in-room response, identifies the exact problem frequencies, and applies hundreds of filter taps in both the frequency AND time domains to correct the specific problems in YOUR room and system. Audyssey not only improves the magnitude response primarily, it also reduces ringing, which is probably a bigger detriment to sound quality than the primary peaks and nulls in the frequency response.

Here is a graph showing the in-room magnitude response without Audyssey:



Hers is the same room and system with Audyssey on:


(Click on the images to see a higher resolution version.)

Note the flattening of the magnitude response with a reduction of the peaks and valleys in the FR.

More importantly, note the small colorful graphs in the upper right corners. These are the time domain graphs. In the Pre-Audyssey graph, everywhere there is a peak in the frequency graph, there is a red and yellow "trail" in the time domain graph. These "trails" represent the ringing and overhang of the sound at those frequencies. In the post-Audyssey graph, those "trails" are completely obliterated. You simply can't do that with a graphic EQ.

The difference in the "sound" between these two graphs is huge. Where the first graph sounds indistinct and inarticulate, with bass notes smearing from one to the next, the second graph sounds articulate and precise with each bass note being distinct and recognizable from the next note. IMO, this is the biggest improvement Audyssey imparts; the bass definition improves dramatically. Some folks are so used to the smeared and muddy bass that they miss it when it gone. However, some quality listening time will show that the bass detail and articulation are much improved and the bass is in better balance to the rest of the sound. At least, that's what my experience tells me.

Stick with Audyssey, my friend! smile.gif

Craig

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post #7 of 16 Old 06-15-2013, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I may have confused things. I wasn't aware of any EQ in the AVR. I guess I meant should I set EQ in sub first and then run audessey or run audessey cal first and then set PEQ in sub if still needed
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post #8 of 16 Old 06-15-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_anderson_u View Post

I think I may have confused things. I wasn't aware of any EQ in the AVR. I guess I meant should I set EQ in sub first and then run audessey or run audessey cal first and then set PEQ in sub if still needed
Ahhh... OK, sorry, I misunderstood. In that case, the question is: Do you have any way to measure the response? If so, find the two worst peaks in your response and use the PEQ in the sub to cut them before you run Audyssey. I suggest you measure the response in multiple locations, similar to the locations you'll use for your Audyssey calibration. You'll need to play around with the center frequency, cut and Q values to optimize things, and you'll ant to look at multiple locations to ensure you aren't making the other locations worse with the EQ settings. Nonetheless, doing so before you run Audyssey will help Audyssey achieve a better result.

OTOH, if you don't have any way to measure your response, you're probably better off leaving the PEQ alone and just running Audyssey. Without measuring capability, you'd just be guessing about the settings, and you could definitely end up making things worse than better.

Craig

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post #9 of 16 Old 06-16-2013, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Ahhh... OK, sorry, I misunderstood. In that case, the question is: Do you have any way to measure the response? If so, find the two worst peaks in your response and use the PEQ in the sub to cut them before you run Audyssey. I suggest you measure the response in multiple locations, similar to the locations you'll use for your Audyssey calibration. You'll need to play around with the center frequency, cut and Q values to optimize things, and you'll ant to look at multiple locations to ensure you aren't making the other locations worse with the EQ settings. Nonetheless, doing so before you run Audyssey will help Audyssey achieve a better result.

OTOH, if you don't have any way to measure your response, you're probably better off leaving the PEQ alone and just running Audyssey. Without measuring capability, you'd just be guessing about the settings, and you could definitely end up making things worse than better.

Craig

Thanks Craig. have calibrated UMM-6 and REW for measuring will give it a shot
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post #10 of 16 Old 06-16-2013, 06:52 PM
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Hi,

Sorry to hijack your thread.

Hi Craig,

Hope you can give me some advise. Post a new thread but not reponse.

"HI,

I just got myself a UMIK -1 for room measurement.

I remember reading that I will have to move the sub around and find the location that give the flatest respone.

Since the sub is so heavey is it ok that I place the Sub at LP and move the mic around the possible sub locations instead of the SUB..

Will the result be the same.

Thanks
Marcus Gan
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post #11 of 16 Old 06-16-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Gan View Post


Since the sub is so heavey is it ok that I place the Sub at LP and move the mic around the possible sub locations instead of the SUB..

Will the result be the same.

Thanks
Marcus Gan

Yes.

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post #12 of 16 Old 06-16-2013, 08:10 PM
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HI Bass Addict,

Thanks

Marcus
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post #13 of 16 Old 06-16-2013, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Gan View Post

Hi,

Sorry to hijack your thread.

Hi Craig,

Hope you can give me some advise. Post a new thread but not reponse.

"HI,

I just got myself a UMIK -1 for room measurement.

I remember reading that I will have to move the sub around and find the location that give the flatest respone.

Since the sub is so heavey is it ok that I place the Sub at LP and move the mic around the possible sub locations instead of the SUB..

Will the result be the same.

Thanks
Marcus Gan
Hi Marcus,

Yes, this is commonly referred to as the "crawl method." Bass response is reciprocal. So If you place the sub at the listening position, and measure at the potential subwoofer placement, the response you measure will be the same at the LP if you place the sub in the spot where you measured. However, if you just place the sub on the floor at the LP, you wont be accounting for the height mode(s) with the sub on the floor. You would need to raise it to listening height to ensure that the results are exactly reciprocal.

Do a search for "Crawl Method of subwoofer placement" for more info. There are a number of articles and videos available that explain it.

Craig

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post #14 of 16 Old 06-16-2013, 09:06 PM
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Hi Craig,

Thanks, I will place the sub on the ground at LP, however when I do the measurement I will place the mic at listening ( hear height )at potential sub position.

Does that compromise on sub being place at ground level.

Thanks
Marcus
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post #15 of 16 Old 06-16-2013, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Gan View Post

Hi Craig,

Thanks, I will place the sub on the ground at LP, however when I do the measurement I will place the mic at listening ( hear height )at potential sub position.

Does that compromise on sub being place at ground level.

Thanks
Marcus
No, I would just place the mic at the point that would correlate to the "midpoint" or "acoustic center" of the sub. Then place the sub where you measured and see how well it reciprocates.

Craig

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post #16 of 16 Old 06-17-2013, 12:12 AM
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Hi Craig,

Thanks, I think I will just raise the SUB to ear level for optimal result.


Cheers
Marcus
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