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post #1 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I gotta ask as some of you guys are posting graphs to 0Hz content. What's the reality of the whole bass reproduction issue?

Yes, I get that it's about smoothing room response and the smile factor. But how low is low when the Wood Chuck is chucking wood?

If one has a system that reproduces flat to 15Hz, do they need to go flat to 10Hz? If one has a system that's flat to 10Hz, do they need to set their sonic plumbing to dig into the 5Hz range? In my opinion, graphs showing content to 0Hz, leaves one with a false sense of reality.

Currently, our system is flat to 20Hz and has a very usable 18Hz. It won't do bass at reference levels but with the MCV to +/-0dB, a clean 108dB is realistic. Upon the time we have the monies for an upgrade, how low does one realistically set their sights? As per usual, budgets are limited and this needs to be taken into consideration. For an upgrade over what we currently have, as a main base subwoofer box, I'm looking at a PSA, XV30f, the Rythmik, FV15HP or the Rythmik, F25. Each of these choices will be accompanied by a single satellite driver box like a PSA, XV15 or a Rythmik, E15.

(personally, I prefer the extension of sealed over the loud of vented)

(personally, for many reasons, I prefer front firing over down firing)

(the room can't handle two XV30f's or two of the Rythmik choices. Decor and the WAF limits how crazy I can get in my thinking)

Pretty much, due to the above, we're limited to two boxes. Boo-hoo me. tongue.gif

My guess, this type of combination should get us down to 12Hz to 14Hz. How low does one need to go in their thinking? Please consider the above choices regarding suggestions as a pair of Triax, or 18" subwoofers would be out of the question.

Are people's expectations too high?

Are my expectations too low?

Do the above choices meet the esoteric middle ground?

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post #2 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 10:03 AM
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Beeman - this hobby can be a bottomless pit. Lots of $$$ into it for what, 5hz, 10hz, 18 hz? If it sounds OK to you, stop and enjoy.
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post #3 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Beeman - this hobby can be a bottomless pit. Lots of $$$ into it for what, 5hz, 10hz, 18 hz? If it sounds OK to you, stop and enjoy.

Thanks for the reply. I'm okay with an upgrade. But what's realistic vs a waste of time?

With this upgrade, the question I need an answer to is: "How low does one need to go?"

If what the listed choices are capable of, are sufficient, then I'll stop looking but I don't want to make a choice, put an order in and then find out I short changed myself, all because I didn't consider some esoteric piece of information.

The only thing keeping us from putting an order in is waiting for the inevitable shift in the 401(k) as the rules are, principal is never touched.

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post #4 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 10:30 AM
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Tom V. and I had this conversation a few times via emails because I too am curious what sub 10hz extension would be like. He told me that the amount of source content that delivers sub 15hz is very small...while the preesurization effect below 10hz is pretty cool, unless you sit and replay certain sections of sub 15hz source content repeatedly, its not going to occur very often.
I think a flat response from 15hz on up is about all a average enthusiast needs to get accurate sound reproduction for movies and music.
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post #5 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I think a flat response from 15hz on up is about all a average enthusiast needs to get accurate sound reproduction for movies and music.

Thanks as I'm looking at graphs over on the "The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts" and of course these guys make it out as if one isn't getting 0Hz, they're missing out on the whole movie experience.

I'm not knocking the thread but threads of this these type give one a skewed vision regarding needed subwoofer output. Hence the genesis of the question: "How low does one need to go?," as they consider an upgrade.

If, as you suggest, 12Hz to 14Hz is a reasonable expectation, then the listed choices will do fine.

I'm hoping the thread will generate conversation surrounding the need to go low and realistic expectations regarding going low.
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post #6 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 11:26 AM
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The problem is this is subjective. What you need is not what others need. I need to reproduce as much as the disc has to offer at reference. The reason for it is because I know I am missing nothing. Do a thread like this with chopping off some upper frequencies and see the audiophiles cry blasphemy. The bandwidth for movies has been measured, it is up to you to decide what you want. If you watch carefully everyone says a certain frequency is OK and it happens to be what their sub can do! That is just their preference or what someone can afford. Again, unless one experiences all sorts of different reference level setups how would you know? I say experience as much as you can and be happy!
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post #7 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The problem is this is subjective. What you need is not what others need. I need to reproduce as much as the disc has to offer at reference. The reason for it is because I know I am missing nothing. Do a thread like this with chopping off some upper frequencies and see the audiophiles cry blasphemy. The bandwidth for movies has been measured, it is up to you to decide what you want. If you watch carefully everyone says a certain frequency is OK and it happens to be what their sub can do! That is just their preference or what someone can afford. Again, unless one experiences all sorts of different reference level setups how would you know? I say experience as much as you can and be happy!

Well if this is some what in reply to my post then there is a few things I want to touch up on. Fwiw I can afford more sub, actually I was talking to Tom about exchanging the xv15's for dual xs30's. He is the one that said anything below 15hz is diminishing returns because there is not that much source content below that. So why would he tell me that when he had the chance to upsell me? Now from what I understand there is a percentage of source out there that drops below 15hz, but when you average it, its a small percentage. Chopping off the upper frequencies is a apple to oranges comparison since about 99% of all sources uses those frequencies. So point being even if you can afford more is it really worth it?

Its no different than horsepower...some guys like to have 1000hp street cars because it sounds cool and its bragging rights...when in reality 500hp will get the job done because its almost impossible to get traction on the street with more power. Were back to the diminishing returns thing again.
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post #8 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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In my way of thinking, it's not about 99% of content being above 15Hz or fiscal laws surrounding diminishing returns. My thinking? Does one miss the 7Hz content when it does come along? Does one lose the "WOW!" factor by not being able to include the <12Hz content? How much of the "WOW!" factor does one lose if one can only do flat to a solid 15Hz?

When a 7Hz effect is played, does one go "now that's what I'm talking about!?" Or do they go; "that was a waste of money?"

When one is ready to step up and play, three points have come across loud and clear as in the end, ultimately, it's about the "WOW!" factor, the "Smile" factor and getting as much of both as one can afford to make happen.

This thread is not about me and what I think but instead is about you and what you think.

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post #9 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In my way of thinking, it's not about 99% of content being above 15Hz or fiscal laws surrounding diminishing returns. My thinking, does one miss the 7Hz content when it does come along? Does one lose the "WOW!" factor by not being able to include the <12Hz content? How much of the "WOW!" factor does one lose if one can only do flat to a solid 15Hz?

When one is ready to step up and play, three points have come across loud and clear, it's about the "WOW!" factor and the "Smile" factor and getting as much of both as one can afford to make happen.

Thats a good question...I guess one would only know by first hand experience.
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post #10 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Thats a good question...I guess one would only know by first hand experience.

Which is why I posed the question as forums of this kind have a boatload of experience in which to insightfully answer this type of question.

Realistically speaking, in my opinion, this is an easy answer to someone who's been there.

Does one miss 7Hz content? My question is not: Is 7Hz content, worth the price?

An example, one has a <7Hz subwoofer system. A fire burns their system down and the insurance company will only reimburse them for a 15Hz system. Will they miss the 7Hz system or is it all a sham?

As a comparison, I've done a lot of comparative analysis and yes, I would miss the benefit of my headphone system. Yes, I can articulate why. Yes, the depth and expansion of a quality system, makes a difference. Up to and beyond our system, I'm not qualified to say. But what I can say, our system is worth the price and I wouldn't hesitate to let a demanding person listen to our headphone system. And being open minded, if they have any complaints, they can buy the better equipment necessary to equal their expectations. I'm easy like that. rolleyes.gif

(and yes, ya gotta love the veracity of insurance marketing)

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post #11 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In my way of thinking, it's not about 99% of content being above 15Hz or fiscal laws surrounding diminishing returns. My thinking? Does one miss the 7Hz content when it does come along? Does one lose the "WOW!" factor by not being able to include the <12Hz content? How much of the "WOW!" factor does one lose if one can only do flat to a solid 15Hz?

When a 7Hz effect is played, does one go "now that's what I'm talking about!?" Or do they go; "that was a waste of money?"

When one is ready to step up and play, three points have come across loud and clear as in the end, ultimately, it's about the "WOW!" factor, the "Smile" factor and getting as much of both as one can afford to make happen.

This thread is not about me and what I think but instead is about you and what you think.

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IMO....

My Submersive HP's will dig to 7 Hz. I've never measured their total output at 7 Hz, but with 3 SubM HP's, the total output ought to be sufficient to be "useful." It is VERY rare that any content in the 7 -10 Hz range comes along. However, when it does, it is STARTLING. eek.gif You FEEL it without hearing it. It makes you sit up and take notice. It really adds something unique to the movie watching experience. It often adds a sense of dread or foreboding. Or, sometimes it adds a tactile sensation that is associated with some massive on-screen action. And contrary to what some have said, I've never noticed infrasonic content when it wasn't supposed to be there. It ALWAYS correlates to the action.

It is definitely not inexpensive to get to 7 Hz or below. However, if you really want it, it's certainly doable, and if you do it, it's definitely worthwhile.

The other major benefit of having strong infrasonic capability is that a system that can do 7 - 10 Hz at useable output can do 20 Hz and up without breaking a sweat. 20 Hz at 115 dB with no distortion is a beautiful thing. smile.gif

Having said all that, I think it's possible to simulate this experience with good subwoofers and bass tactile actuators. Set the actuators up so they only reproduce the deepest stuff, the infrasonic stuff, and they can work every bit as well as for the infrasonic tactile sensation as can high output, infrasonic-capable subwoofers. The "high value" budget-conscious system would consist of capable subs, (20 Hz @ Reference-level + 3 dB of headroom), with infrasonic capable tactile actuators.

I use Crowson Tactile Actuators driven by a Buttkicker BKA1000 amp:
https://www.crowsontech.com/
http://www.thebuttkicker.com/bka1000-n.php

IMO....

Craig

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post #12 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

However, if you really want it, it's certainly doable, and if you do it, it's definitely worthwhile.

Thanks for the reply. biggrin.gif
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post #13 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 04:43 PM
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I think this falls into the old standard saying, "If you have to ask you will not get it"

I get the impression you are talking about movies.and not pipe organ music. My thought, until reading the forums, was a goal of a home theater was re-create the movie experience at home. I find it interesting that there is usable content below about 20hz, because I thought THX certification was somewhere in the 20-30hz range. Do sound engineers spend time fiddling with infrasonic frequencies? How do they do that without being able to hear it?

BTW, Craig's response makes me really want to experience infrasonic frequencies. Just by knowing it is out there would make me want to go after it if the funds allowed. The impression I get is if you can go for it, then go for it. Otherwise you will always question your system. I have yet to read a post where a guy says, "You know I have these 3 Submersives and I really regret it. Wish I had just got a RDW-12".
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post #14 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 04:44 PM
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My modest twin 10" Velodynes are audible down to 23 Hz but still make the room rattle & buzz down to 20 Hz (where my test disc ends).

These structure noises are not avoidable nor fixable & are quite annoying to me & the wife. They really don't add to the movie experience...

TAM
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post #15 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the replies as yes, I'm posting about movie sound tracks and fortunately, our room doesn't suffer from rattles and buzzing.
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post #16 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 06:10 PM
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You are indeed lucky.

I have inaccessible furnace ducting inside the walls & a metal gas fireplace that both like to sing at certain low freqs....

TAM
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post #17 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have inaccessible furnace ducting inside the walls & a metal gas fireplace that both like to sing at certain low freqs....

We have a pair of closets and a fireplace that likes to dance when doing EQ frequency sweeps but other than that, during normal playback, we're good. Sorry to read your above regarding your room's condition as that does put the ky-bosh on Home Theater fun.
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post #18 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 07:24 PM
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Cutting off the lows is not any different than cutting off the highs. How much content in movies do you think are in the 15khz to 20khz range? If one really wants to talk about percentages than why have anything when most movies are just dialog so all we really need is a center channel. I mean even most action films are dialog so why Invest in the other 20% when you can get 80% for just one speaker! I know this is crazy talk but to me coming up with a so called frequency to say it is OK to cut off is absurd to me. Tom mentioned that 15hz is fine because of the percentage of info, well that is his opinion. May I ask why do you think he even considered making the Triax? It will certainly go much lower than 15hz with authority. For the people that want it all. Yes, we are the minority but that does no make it a bad thing. People like me purposely built our theaters to get the best possible response and experience and I have tried most designs and even shakers. It all comes down to once again ones own opinion. You can have Tom say 15hz, Seaton say 7hz, Bosso say 3hz, you say 20hz, me say get the point? Who is right? Everyone is different and do what they want because in the end this will always be preference.
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post #19 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 07:33 PM
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^ Good point!
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post #20 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So, how low does one need to go?

...confused.gif
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post #21 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

So, how low does one need to go?

...confused.gif

10hz smile.gif

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post #22 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Cutting off the lows is not any different than cutting off the highs. How much content in movies do you think are in the 15khz to 20khz range? If one really wants to talk about percentages than why have anything when most movies are just dialog so all we really need is a center channel. I mean even most action films are dialog so why Invest in the other 20% when you can get 80% for just one speaker! I know this is crazy talk but to me coming up with a so called frequency to say it is OK to cut off is absurd to me. Tom mentioned that 15hz is fine because of the percentage of info, well that is his opinion. May I ask why do you think he even considered making the Triax? It will certainly go much lower than 15hz with authority. For the people that want it all. Yes, we are the minority but that does no make it a bad thing. People like me purposely built our theaters to get the best possible response and experience and I have tried most designs and even shakers. It all comes down to once again ones own opinion. You can have Tom say 15hz, Seaton say 7hz, Bosso say 3hz, you say 20hz, me say get the point? Who is right? Everyone is different and do what they want because in the end this will always be preference.
Just to clarify, Mark Seaton doesn't "say" 7 Hz. He puts a 7 Hz high pass on the SubM because that is the safe lower limit for the sub. It works with the "soft-limiters" to ensure the drivers can reach over-excursion. I'm sure Mark would *theoretically* agree with Bosso that the ideal is everything on the disc, down to 3 Hz.

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post #23 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Having said all that, I think it's possible to simulate this experience with good subwoofers and bass tactile actuators. Set the actuators up so they only reproduce the deepest stuff, the infrasonic stuff, and they can work every bit as well as for the infrasonic tactile sensation as can high output, infrasonic-capable subwoofers. The "high value" budget-conscious system would consist of capable subs, (20 Hz @ Reference-level + 3 dB of headroom), with infrasonic capable tactile actuators.

That's me! Thanks, Craig, I'm enjoying it more, already.


Downloadable FREE demo discs:
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #24 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

My modest twin 10" Velodynes are audible down to 23 Hz but still make the room rattle & buzz down to 20 Hz (where my test disc ends).
 

You need better test material:

http://files.hsuresearch.com/downloads/

Find those rattles!


Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #25 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 08:21 PM
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Just trying to say who can say what frequency gets cut off. I know Mark never said 7hz as his stop or cutoff point. If content is on the disc and you cut it off it is no longer accurate. I mean there are many movies recently with high 30-50hz bass in it and people are going gaga for it calling it awesome. Theaters have been doing that for years and years, it is the low stuff that get the wow! How low? Well, many people in my theater think what I have now is my best and it just happens to get the most low stuff as well as the higher stuff, go figure. I say goes as low as you can. This also means getting equipment(bluray player and processor) to not rolloff down low as well. Of course IMHO.
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post #26 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

So, how low does one need to go?

...confused.gif

"need" is the operative word. To use your own quote ... "It's all about the Benjamins." The law of diminishing returns certainly applies to this question. It costs exponentially more to achieve each octave of extension. And there is fractionally less content that utilizes that deeper extension. So the answer to the question is: How much money, time and/or effort do you want to throw at getting deep infrasonic extension at high SPL?

Only YOU can answer that question for yourself. For me, I wasn't willing or financially able to do it until my kids where done with college. Now that my kids are independently wealthy, (yeah... RIGHT!), and they are in "grandkid production" mode, I can finally spend what I want to get the infrasonic response I've always craved.

Has it been worth it to me? Yes, absolutely. To answer a question you asked a few posts ago, if I had an insurance claim to replace my subs, and the insurance company would only replace the subs to the "sonic equivalent" of my subs, I would put out my own money to get the rest of the extension. But those are my "Benjamins", not yours. Only you can determine how to allocate your own Benjamins.

There are also some less expensive ways to get there... DIY is one; IB subs is another; using subs for the sonic bandwidth and transducers for the infrasonic is yet another. Still, those solutions have their own "costs" associated with them.

Craig

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post #27 of 88 Old 06-16-2013, 11:05 PM
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LBNL: I have a good idea where the rattles & buzzes are, but I can't get at them to fix them as my walls & ceilings are fully finished & I'm not going to perform surgery on them.

Besides my modest Velos probably won't rattle much below 20 Hz anyway & that's fine with me...

TAM
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post #28 of 88 Old 06-17-2013, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This is an existential question of how much of the subwoofer experience is the educated viewer going miss?

If one were to go to a buddy's home, all things equal, reference flat with all the popcorn and cold beer one can rationally eat/drink to watch a generic action movie, is a 7Hz system going be missed if listening in a venue only capable of 12Hz or 14Hz?

Maybe I should ask the question differently; how noticeable is this difference going be? Is it a real on the edge, you have to already be there to notice difference or is it an upfront, in your face, oh hell no, difference? Does one have to go into critical listening mode to notice the difference or is this a noticeable part of the fun ride that is sadly missed?

Budgets are such a terrible thing but they're also reality. Pretty much, I'm sure we'd all agree that 15Hz is easily doable. Even if on a budget, 12Hz is a reasonable expectation. If not doing DIY, 7Hz is starting to sound expensive. If you guys with the 3Hz and 7Hz systems were to go over to a buddy's house that was only capable of a flat, reference level 14Hz, how much would you miss your system?

How much of the WOW! factor does one lose in the case of standard action movies like "Hansel and Gretel" or "Unstoppable" as opposed to FOTP or WORW when going from 14Hz to 7Hz?

Just to be clear, this is not a question of is it worth it but instead this is a question of would the capability be missed?" And if it would be missed to what extent would it be missed and if it would be missed, what is the line where the experience is being harmed?

After I buy this system, I have some used camera bodies (Canon, 1D MkII and a 1Ds MkII), an image printer and some software to buy (and I'd like to do so before I die) so for me, this purchase will have to put this existential question to bed.

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post #29 of 88 Old 06-17-2013, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

This is an existential question of how much of the subwoofer experience is the educated viewer going miss?

You're missing the sound of one hand clapping? biggrin.gif


Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #30 of 88 Old 06-17-2013, 06:44 AM
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I think you need a roadtrip. Find someone with 7hz and sweet talk them into letting you watch a movie on it. Then go to a a 14hz system and watch the same movie.

Without that I don't think anyone can answer it for you. In photography you can see the images for yourselfand decide if you are a Canon guy or a Nikon guy without going to the printer .... unfortunately with audio you need to go to the source.
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