HSU VTF15H Donation thread for Data-Bass Testing! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 09:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,468
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Well I finally had a chance to read thru all the data on the VTF-15. when you look at the max burst numbers, yes the VTF has the advantage, but when you look at the In -Room numbers combined with THD, its a even playing field. Probably would not have even mentioned it if Saints had not thrown gasoline on the fire. smile.gif

If you look at the burst numbers, the VTF15h has a modest advantage, but if you look at the compression magnitude and long term output, the VTF15h has a pretty serious advantage which would benefit anything with continuous bass.
Nor Cal *23 likes this.
shadyJ is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 09:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Well I finally had a chance to read thru all the data on the VTF-15. when you look at the max burst numbers, yes the VTF has the advantage, but when you look at the In -Room numbers combined with THD, its a even playing field. Probably would not have even mentioned it if Saints had not thrown gasoline on the fire. smile.gif

And the XV15 costs less! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
jbrown15 is offline  
post #183 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 10:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,090
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Basshead81 I have seen you post the in room charts a couple of times.

Everyone should note that those apply to my room only. They cannot be used as an indicator of what anyone else can expect in a different room even in a ballpark type aspect. Despite what others may say. Distortion is greatly affected by the room and the placement of both the sub and listening position inside of it. The peaks, nulls and relative gain at each frequency have huge effects on distortion harmonics and their relative strength. Even differences in sub size and placement if the radiator elements on the enclosure can affect how the output is translated to the listening position. The room results are posted in an effort to show one example of how outdoor results can translate in room and also to illustrate just how much the room acoustics can completely change things. They can be compared between 2 subs but there are large differences in how the room affects even fairly similar designs like the vtf15 and XV15. Just don't assume those results indicate anything accurate regarding what to expect in your situation.

Also I wanted to note that the CEA-2010 results that I measured for 1port and 2port modes of the VTF15H were within less than a dB from HSU's posted results for both modes in every band from 16-80Hz except for 2 ports 16Hz which is off enough that it is likely a typo or error. Anyway that shows that HSU's results are correct if anyone had any doubts.

Sorry posting from the phone...
Ricci is offline  
post #184 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,783
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Basshead81 I have seen you post the in room charts a couple of times.

Everyone should note that those apply to my room only. They cannot be used as an indicator of what anyone else can expect in a different room even in a ballpark type aspect. Despite what others may say. Distortion is greatly affected by the room and the placement of both the sub and listening position inside of it. The peaks, nulls and relative gain at each frequency have huge effects on distortion harmonics and their relative strength. Even differences in sub size and placement if the radiator elements on the enclosure can affect how the output is translated to the listening position. The room results are posted in an effort to show one example of how outdoor results can translate in room and also to illustrate just how much the room acoustics can completely change things. They can be compared between 2 subs but there are large differences in how the room affects even fairly similar designs like the vtf15 and XV15. Just don't assume those results indicate anything accurate regarding what to expect in your situation.

Also I wanted to note that the CEA-2010 results that I measured for 1port and 2port modes of the VTF15H were within less than a dB from HSU's posted results for both modes in every band from 16-80Hz except for 2 ports 16Hz which is off enough that it is likely a typo or error. Anyway that shows that HSU's results are correct if anyone had any doubts.

Sorry posting from the phone...

So in your opinion how do the 2 subs stack up against each other? I understand that these numbers apply to your room, but you tested both subs in your room, so I thought it was a fare comparison? Going off of your room repsonse the XV15 appears to be right on par with the VTF-15, but with a slight advantage in the 40-80hz region. Am I off base with this?
basshead81 is offline  
post #185 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 10:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Cowboys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 106
^^
I don't think it's fair to put him in this situation to say which sub has the edge.
SaviorMachine likes this.
Cowboys is offline  
post #186 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 10:49 AM
Senior Member
 
ironhead1230's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Lol it wins by a very slim margin that you would never hear. However I am glad you are happy with the results. Now head on over to my other thread and place your vote for the next sub to test. wink.gif

So you've made multiple posts in this thread about the performance of the VTF15h, but hadn't looked at all of the data? Not sure what to think about that. And now you're still just looking at the CEA numbers. Ricci includes the other measurements for a reason. Look at the max output sweep, compression sweeps, THD graphs, etc. The VTF15h does have a larger advantage in some of those tests. Will that translate to an noticeable difference in real work use? I haven't heard either sub so I don't know for sure, but IMO it is a possibility. (Depending on the person, room, content, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I just wanted to post these graphs for those who dont read all the charts on data-bass.com. These are the In-Room numbers and you can see the VTF-15 has more output in 1 port on the low end but its filled with high order harmonic distortion...the kind thats clearly audible(4th-9th). 2 port mode has the cleanest output and will probably be what mode most folks run without sacrificing output. In 1 port the sub would need to be turned down a few db to produce clean output. Anything more than 10% thd from 4th - 9th order harmonics is audible. I am not posting this to further this debate, its to help some folks understand How to read these charts. When you carefully analyze this data its pretty clear the XV15 is even with the VTF-15 in 16-30hz, and has more output in the 40-80hz. So imo niether wins, its more a draw. Both have there pros and cons, its up to the end user to decide which is better for them.

I don't think you understand the full significance of the CEA tests either. First, what level of distortion is audible is largely dependent on the content being produced. Sure there is a threshold for sine waves or burst tests, but in real world use, that same level of distortion is not always audible. Many times it will be masked by other frequencies. Also, if you actually look at the CEA limits for each fundamental (http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/appnote_007.pdf) you would know that the 4th and 5th harmonics are limited to 10%, 6th, 7th and 8th limited to 3.2% and the 9th and above are limited to 1%. So even though the VTF15H is limited at some frequencies by the 9th harmonic, that harmonic is still only 1%. The VTF15H has lower total THD at all frequencies for the in room CEA numbers but the THD harmonics of each sub are different, so which sub would "sound" worse at those levels? I'm not sure, but it is not as simple as your're saying. Second, you cannot use CEA numbers alone to determine the performance of a sub or what mode will work best. There was a recent discussion about how Ricci's CEA numbers at higher frequencies for DIY systems are not relevant for the average person. He is using an extremely powerful amp to achieve those numbers and the amount of voltage used at the higher frequencies would destroy the drivers at lower frequencies. So if you want a flat FR, the DIY systems are voltage limited at the lower frequencies and in real world use, the driver limits at the higher frequencies are never reached. A similar thing needs to be applied to commercial subs as well.

Look at the outdoor CEA numbers for the XV15. It has 14db more output at 50hz than 20hz. So as you keep pointing out, it has an advantage over a lot of other subs in its class around 50hz. Now look at the compression sweeps. There is very little compression at the 105db sweep, compression increases at 110db and the limiters are engaging at 115db. Its similar with the THD graphs. THD is below 20% for most of the range on the 105db sweep, increases significantly at 110db and would be off the charts at 115db. So, IMO you would want to keep the level below what produced the 110db sweep. For now, look at the 105db sweep. The output at 50hz is only 4.5db higher than 20hz. What happened to the 14db difference? To produce that higher output at 50hz in the CEA test, the sub had to be pushed to a level that would be past its limits at lower frequencies. So if you don't use manual EQ to put a hump in your response at 50hz, the output advantage around that frequency is not used in real world content. This is one of the reasons CEA averages can be misleading and why you need to look at more than just CEA numbers.

What about the VTF15h? In 1 port mode, the VTF15h has about 7db more output in the CEA tests at 50hz than at 20hz. Josh says that the 115db sweep produced audible artifacts showing the amp and driver were past their limits, so look at the 110db sweep. With that sweep, there is 6db more output at 20hz than 50hz. Almost the same as the CEA tests. This means that most of the burst output from the CEA tests is usable in real world content with a flat FR. At the 110db sweep it also has lower THD than the XV15 did at its 105db sweep, especially at higher frequencies.

Again I'm not saying all of these differences will definitely make an audible difference for everyone in real world use, but IMO, there are differences in the measurements that show the VTF15H is a better performer and could justify the higher cost over the XV15 for some people.
ironhead1230 is offline  
post #187 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,783
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1377
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

So you've made multiple posts in this thread about the performance of the VTF15h, but hadn't looked at all of the data? Not sure what to think about that. And now you're still just looking at the CEA numbers. Ricci includes the other measurements for a reason. Look at the max output sweep, compression sweeps, THD graphs, etc. The VTF15h does have a larger advantage in some of those tests. Will that translate to an noticeable difference in real work use? I haven't heard either sub so I don't know for sure, but IMO it is a possibility. (Depending on the person, room, content, etc.)
I don't think you understand the full significance of the CEA tests either. First, what level of distortion is audible is largely dependent on the content being produced. Sure there is a threshold for sine waves or burst tests, but in real world use, that same level of distortion is not always audible. Many times it will be masked by other frequencies. Also, if you actually look at the CEA limits for each fundamental (http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/appnote_007.pdf) you would know that the 4th and 5th harmonics are limited to 10%, 6th, 7th and 8th limited to 3.2% and the 9th and above are limited to 1%. So even though the VTF15H is limited at some frequencies by the 9th harmonic, that harmonic is still only 1%. The VTF15H has lower total THD at all frequencies for the in room CEA numbers but the THD harmonics of each sub are different, so which sub would "sound" worse at those levels? I'm not sure, but it is not as simple as your're saying. Second, you cannot use CEA numbers alone to determine the performance of a sub or what mode will work best. There was a recent discussion about how Ricci's CEA numbers at higher frequencies for DIY systems are not relevant for the average person. He is using an extremely powerful amp to achieve those numbers and the amount of voltage used at the higher frequencies would destroy the drivers at lower frequencies. So if you want a flat FR, the DIY systems are voltage limited at the lower frequencies and in real world use, the driver limits at the higher frequencies are never reached. A similar thing needs to be applied to commercial subs as well.

Look at the outdoor CEA numbers for the XV15. It has 14db more output at 50hz than 20hz. So as you keep pointing out, it has an advantage over a lot of other subs in its class around 50hz. Now look at the compression sweeps. There is very little compression at the 105db sweep, compression increases at 110db and the limiters are engaging at 115db. Its similar with the THD graphs. THD is below 20% for most of the range on the 105db sweep, increases significantly at 110db and would be off the charts at 115db. So, IMO you would want to keep the level below what produced the 110db sweep. For now, look at the 105db sweep. The output at 50hz is only 4.5db higher than 20hz. What happened to the 14db difference? To produce that higher output at 50hz in the CEA test, the sub had to be pushed to a level that would be past its limits at lower frequencies. So if you don't use manual EQ to put a hump in your response at 50hz, the output advantage around that frequency is not used in real world content. This is one of the reasons CEA averages can be misleading and why you need to look at more than just CEA numbers.

What about the VTF15h? In 1 port mode, the VTF15h has about 7db more output in the CEA tests at 50hz than at 20hz. Josh says that the 115db sweep produced audible artifacts showing the amp and driver were past their limits, so look at the 110db sweep. With that sweep, there is 6db more output at 20hz than 50hz. Almost the same as the CEA tests. This means that most of the burst output from the CEA tests is usable in real world content with a flat FR. At the 110db sweep it also has lower THD than the XV15 did at its 105db sweep, especially at higher frequencies.

Again I'm not saying all of these differences will definitely make an audible difference for everyone in real world use, but IMO, there are differences in the measurements that show the VTF15H is a better performer and could justify the higher cost over the XV15 for some people.

I looked at all the data besides the in-room graphs...excuse me for not reading thru everything before posting. I understand all of what you posted. I was just pointing out going off of Ricci's In Room measurements the XV15 looks to be more evenly matched.
basshead81 is offline  
post #188 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 02:26 PM
Member
 
Inspector 24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
The in-room debate is interesting. In Room I just can't get the suggested 2PO EQ=2 Q=.3 to sound good to my ear. So throw me in the oddball pile. tongue.gif

Down
RTiA9 - CSiA6 - FXiA6
Dual HSU VTF-15H
HCA-3500 - HCA-2003A - Marantz SR7005
Sim2 D60 - Dragonfly 106" Panasonic 500

Up
LSi9 LSiC RX-V3000 Panasonic 220
Inspector 24 is offline  
post #189 of 233 Old 09-15-2013, 08:05 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 421
When a sub has 3-5 dBs more output at a certain frequency that means it will take 1.5 half of the other sub to match that output. That is pretty big of a difference. The HSU is a lower tuned sub in one port mode and extends deeper by 1.5 half subs. To me it depends on what someone wants as a goal. Lower extension, HSU, cheaper, PSA. You always pay more for lower extension and even more for more power and lower extension. The price differences are justified between the PSA, HSU, and Rhytmik. If one does not care about in room 10hz then save the money and get the PSA. The other two will get you in room 10hz output and different SPL's with different prices. If you want more SPL's at 20hz than you get the chase or even more a Cap. Goals!
dominguez1 likes this.
MKtheater is offline  
post #190 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,783
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

When a sub has 3-5 dBs more output at a certain frequency that means it will take 1.5 half of the other sub to match that output. That is pretty big of a difference. The HSU is a lower tuned sub in one port mode and extends deeper by 1.5 half subs. To me it depends on what someone wants as a goal. Lower extension, HSU, cheaper, PSA. You always pay more for lower extension and even more for more power and lower extension. The price differences are justified between the PSA, HSU, and Rhytmik. If one does not care about in room 10hz then save the money and get the PSA. The other two will get you in room 10hz output and different SPL's with different prices. If you want more SPL's at 20hz than you get the chase or even more a Cap. Goals!

True but imo neither the XV15 or VTF-15 have the power and output to make use of that 10-12hz extension alone. In order to get that extension at a level where it will be noticed or felt in relation to the rest of the FR, its going to take multiple subs. I think you and many others have proved this by the simple fact you guys run 8-16 subs with thousands of watts to achieve those sub 12hz levels. MK, you are one of the few the specifically key in on subsonic bass, which is a frequency that resides in less then 10% all source content...not to mention alot of the latest movies are filtering out infrasonics. Also for us music lovers, we do look at the mid upper bass range as well.

So yes It would take 1.5 XV15's to equal a VTF-15 @ 12hz, but I would be willing to bet anybody 100.00 you could put both in room and not be able to tell a difference. Neither one simply has enough output down that low to make a difference. Now take 3-4 or each then yes you probably would feel more pressurization from the VTF-15 down at 12hz, but the XV15 will have more chest thumping mid bass slam.
So yes I agree its all about goals.
basshead81 is offline  
post #191 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 12:29 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Don't get me wrong, one of any sub would not be enough unless your room is a closet. I am assuming enough clean headroom at said frequency. You are new here and I have been thru many designs including the massive midbass for music subs and massive excursion for low bass subs. People always say one is better than the other for their purposes but if one wants a system one can do both and the other just midbass. I have had over 140 dBs plus from dual subs before within the midbass region and love the full bandwidth so I am biased.
MKtheater is offline  
post #192 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 12:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
looking at the chart I don't see where the XV will run away with chest thumping mid bass over the VTF unless I am missing something it usually takes more than 1db difference for 99% of us to notice a change.
oztech is offline  
post #193 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 12:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
Cvetan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Don't get me wrong, one of any sub would not be enough unless your room is a closet.

Ha! I can think of a few subs, where one could possibly be enough... JTR, Seaton, Triax? wink.gif Might not be enough for your tastes, but Im sure they'd satisfy most.
Cvetan1 is offline  
post #194 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 12:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Looking at the long term graphs the Hsu wins everywhere and by more than 3-4 dBs at most frequencies.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=100&mset=110
Nor Cal *23 likes this.
MKtheater is offline  
post #195 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 12:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Again it depends on goals. I want as much on the disc at reference as possible and doing it clean with no compression. So the problem becomes at the low end so all one has to do is add more until it is reached. Just takes money. Of course if one does not care about the low end they save big time. The only way I could achieve that is getting 19 liters of displacement in my room with a sealed design. I would need multiples of those companies. A single CapS2 gets 14.4 liters and the closest but I would need to add a CapS1 as well.
MKtheater is offline  
post #196 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 01:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
Saints's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 24
School is in session!

Life is hard, be harder.
Saints is offline  
post #197 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 03:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JimWilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Somewhere in New Joisey
Posts: 4,543
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

Ha! I can think of a few subs, where one could possibly be enough... JTR, Seaton, Triax? wink.gif Might not be enough for your tastes, but Im sure they'd satisfy most.

The only way MK's insatiable thirst for bass could be satisfied with a single sub would be if it was using one of these drivers. tongue.gif

Everyone's needs -- wants actually -- are going to be different. There are a few people on this forum that I think go into overkill mode, and I would not want to have the system they do, but that doesn't mean a whole lot of anything really. My requirements are far more modest then some of the "advanced" members, yet mine exceed those of others by a long shot. It all depends upon what you're looking to achieve, and how much $$ you have to spend of course.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
JimWilson is online now  
post #198 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,783
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1377
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Looking at the long term graphs the Hsu wins everywhere and by more than 3-4 dBs at most frequencies.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=100&mset=110

When you look at Ricci's in room charts, why does the XV15 come within .5db from 16-31hz and have a 3db average advantage in the 40-80hz region? Does some of this difference have anything to do with the mic not being placed in the same relation to the driver during open ground plane testing? Ricci said the numbers could be off 1-2db and possibly more in the 80hz range if I am not mistaken. I guess what I would like to know what is causing the performance gain in Josh's room with the XV15?
basshead81 is offline  
post #199 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 04:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 792
^^^^^ If both subs were tested in Josh's room why would it even matter?

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
jbrown15 is offline  
post #200 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 5,783
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 1377
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

^^^^^ If both subs were tested in Josh's room why would it even matter?

I am trying to understand why the XV15 has a 3db average advantage in the 40-80hz range In room thats not there according to the open ground plane numbers? How did the XV15 make this up by merely placing it In Room? Is it design or are we seeing the difference on how the mic was placed in relation to the driver during cea2010 testing? Make sense??
basshead81 is offline  
post #201 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 159

All bets are off when it comes to in-room measurements. In other words, the reason you are seeing fluctuations in output has nothing to do with the capability of the sub, but rather how the sub is interacting with the room. It just so happens that in Josh's room, you are seeing the results you are pointing out. However, it is ONLY relevant for his room, and his room only. In any other room, it will likely behave differently.

 

In order to understand the subs true capability, the room has to be removed. That is what Josh has done in his test via ground plane measurement...and why sub capability should only be judged with the room removed, as each room is different.

dominguez1 is online now  
post #202 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I am trying to understand why the XV15 has a 3db average advantage in the 40-80hz range In room thats not there according to the open ground plane numbers? How did the XV15 make this up by merely placing it In Room? Is it design or are we seeing the difference on how the mic was placed in relation to the driver during cea2010 testing? Make sense??

Yeah sorry Bass, what I meant is if they would both tested in Josh's room what difference does it make, I would think that the XV15 simply have better in room response then the VTF15-H at that frequency range.

No?

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
jbrown15 is offline  
post #203 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 159
dominguez1 is online now  
post #204 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

All bets are off when it comes to in-room measurements. In other words, the reason you are seeing fluctuations in output has nothing to do with the capability of the sub, but rather how the sub is interacting with the room. It just so happens that in Josh's room, you are seeing the results you are pointing out. However, it is ONLY relevant for his room, and his room only. In any other room, it will likely behave differently.

In order to understand the subs true capability, the room has to be removed. That is what Josh has done in his test via ground plane measurement...and why sub capability should only be judged with the room removed, as each room is different.

Yes but if does subs were tested in the same room has is it not relavent?

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
jbrown15 is offline  
post #205 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Could one sub pick up more room gain then another sub even if there were both placed in the same room and the same spot?

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
jbrown15 is offline  
post #206 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 159

It is relevant to Josh's room. Josh could use this data to make a buying decision for his room.

 

However, your room, bass's room, my room, will behave entirely differently. We can't say "Josh's room behaved this way with the XV15 vs the VTF, therefore my room will behave the same way".

dominguez1 is online now  
post #207 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Could one sub pick up more room gain then another sub even if there were both placed in the same room and the same spot?

 

Yes. Look at the various GTG's where they placed them in the same spot in each room and measured. Each sub had different responses, dependent on the characteristics of each sub.

dominguez1 is online now  
post #208 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Yes. Look at the various GTG's where they placed them in the same spot in each room and measured. Each sub had different responses, dependent on the characteristics of each sub.

Yeah I get that..lol
It's not like I don't know anything about subs.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
jbrown15 is offline  
post #209 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 05:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 421
It means in Josh's room the difference would be extension as I said before using one sub. Distortions are too high for either to be used in room at those levels. Well, for me anyways where my limit is 10% THD as things start sounding bad above that.
MKtheater is offline  
post #210 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 06:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jbrown15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 5,400
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 468 Post(s)
Liked: 792
^^^^^okay gotcha.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
jbrown15 is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Hsu Vtf 15h Subwoofer

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off