HSU VTF15H Donation thread for Data-Bass Testing! - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

All bets are off when it comes to in-room measurements. In other words, the reason you are seeing fluctuations in output has nothing to do with the capability of the sub, but rather how the sub is interacting with the room. It just so happens that in Josh's room, you are seeing the results you are pointing out. However, it is ONLY relevant for his room, and his room only. In any other room, it will likely behave differently.

In order to understand the subs true capability, the room has to be removed. That is what Josh has done in his test via ground plane measurement...and why sub capability should only be judged with the room removed, as each room is different.

Ok thanks for that explanation...that answers my question. So basically in one room the XV15 can perform better then the VTF-15 and vice versa.... Interesting.
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post #212 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

All bets are off when it comes to in-room measurements. In other words, the reason you are seeing fluctuations in output has nothing to do with the capability of the sub, but rather how the sub is interacting with the room. It just so happens that in Josh's room, you are seeing the results you are pointing out. However, it is ONLY relevant for his room, and his room only. In any other room, it will likely behave differently.

In order to understand the subs true capability, the room has to be removed. That is what Josh has done in his test via ground plane measurement...and why sub capability should only be judged with the room removed, as each room is different.
So what ? then you can say out doors it measured this way or that way and when you get it in room now what? Seems to me if you where measuring outdoor subs it would hold true to some extent ( what are the known outdoor conditions that affect the test? I'm not trying to be funny but does humidity, wind or terrain etc.. have impact) As a part of other test yes but as the only, no way.
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post #213 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


Ok thanks for that explanation...that answers my question. So basically in one room the XV15 can perform better then the VTF-15 and vice versa.... Interesting.

 

Better is tough to quantify in this example; a slight difference in output? Yes.

 

However, the majority of the time a sub that performs better ground plane will perform better in-room compared to a sub that doesn't perform as well ground plane.

 

As many have said before, if they are close in performance, that difference becomes smaller in-room with 1 sub, but starts to get greater and greater as more subs are added. Whether or not you can tell a difference between the two similarly performing subs is largely dependent on the room, where it's positioned in the room, and the listener. Like I said, as more subs are added, the greater the difference will start to appear.



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post #214 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 06:34 PM
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The xv15 was tested in room last year when I first moved into my new home and the room arrangement has changed quite a bit since then. New furniture has been added plus a writers desk and things have been changed around. Combine this with small differences in calibration, orientation differences of the drivers and ports and the baseplate on the xv15 reducing the ground plane results by about a dB and you can see how there could be some differences. The differences being primarily at 50-63Hz in room leads me to believe it is mostly related to changes in the room arrangement since then.


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post #215 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


True but imo neither the XV15 or VTF-15 have the power and output to make use of that 10-12hz extension alone. In order to get that extension at a level where it will be noticed or felt in relation to the rest of the FR, its going to take multiple subs. I think you and many others have proved this by the simple fact you guys run 8-16 subs with thousands of watts to achieve those sub 12hz levels. MK, you are one of the few the specifically key in on subsonic bass, which is a frequency that resides in less then 10% all source content...not to mention alot of the latest movies are filtering out infrasonics. Also for us music lovers, we do look at the mid upper bass range as well.

So yes It would take 1.5 XV15's to equal a VTF-15 @ 12hz, but I would be willing to bet anybody 100.00 you could put both in room and not be able to tell a difference. Neither one simply has enough output down that low to make a difference. Now take 3-4 or each then yes you probably would feel more pressurization from the VTF-15 down at 12hz, but the XV15 will have more chest thumping mid bass slam.
So yes I agree its all about goals.

 

Whether or not you can tell a difference is highly room dependent. Take for example the below sweep:

 

Aug 2011 normal response vs 111db @ 10hz (no smoothing)

 

This is when I had dual A7S-450s. That is aprox. 110db at 12.5hz.

 

The A7S-450 was measured at 90db @12.5 hz. The VTF-15H measures 93.5@12.5hz.

 

In my room, 1 A7S-450 would have registered 104db @ 12.5hz, and 107.5db for a single VTF. That's pretty impressive for one sub. Add another VTF, and your close to reference @ 113.5db.

 

So, it is largely dependent on the room whether or not it is meaningful output.



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post #216 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 07:07 PM
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Yeah except the eD measured 110 dBs at 9 hz as well! The eD could not even make it to 10hz outside, in room does wonderful things!
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post #217 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 07:12 PM
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Yeah except the eD measured 110 dBs at 9 hz as well! The eD could not even make it to 10hz outside, in room does wonderful things!

 

For those following the ULF Score thread, 2 of those eD's were equivalent of 1.4 SI when I did that sweep.

 

I've got 8.2 equivalent SIs with my current setup. :D



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post #218 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Whether or not you can tell a difference is highly room dependent. Take for example the below sweep:

94138.jpg

This is when I had dual A7S-450s. That is aprox. 110db at 12.5hz.

The A7S-450 was measured at 90db @12.5 hz. The VTF-15H measures 93.5@12.5hz.

In my room, 1 A7S-450 would have registered 104db @ 12.5hz, and 107.5db for a single VTF. That's pretty impressive for one sub. Add another VTF, and your close to reference @ 113.5db.

So, it is largely dependent on the room whether or not it is meaningful output.

How do you know the VTF would measure 107.5db? I thought you just previously posted that 2 different subs can react differently in the same room and location. Meaning wha the A7s-450s did in your room does not mean the VTF will do the same?
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post #219 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 07:36 PM
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I don't know for sure of course. However like I also said, in most rooms it would most likely translate....certainly more than it wouldn't.

Also, josh explained that his room essentially changed between tests, so that most likely represents the difference in his test measurements.


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post #220 of 233 Old 09-16-2013, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I don't know for sure of course. However like I also said, in most rooms it would most likely translate....certainly more than it wouldn't.

Also, josh explained that his room essentially changed between tests, so that most likely represents the difference in his test measurements.

ahh ok...it sounds like you get some healthy room gain. So with your dual FV15HP's you are netting 118.5db at 12.5hz eek.gif
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post #221 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 08:17 AM
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Great review, by the way. Dr. Hsu and the crew engineered the crap out of this sub. It's been thoroughly vetted for years -- it came out almost 3 years ago -- and by most accounts remains a fine subwoofer by both those in and out of "the know". It's pretty impressive what Hsu did with the components they used, the design choices they made, and the price point they hit. Thank you Ricci for the effort and service you provide to this forum and others. Your work is really appreciated. Also, a big high-five to those that made this review happen. Looking forward to the next one.
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post #222 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Basshead81 I have seen you post the in room charts a couple of times.

Everyone should note that those apply to my room only. They cannot be used as an indicator of what anyone else can expect in a different room even in a ballpark type aspect. Despite what others may say. Distortion is greatly affected by the room and the placement of both the sub and listening position inside of it. The peaks, nulls and relative gain at each frequency have huge effects on distortion harmonics and their relative strength. Even differences in sub size and placement if the radiator elements on the enclosure can affect how the output is translated to the listening position. The room results are posted in an effort to show one example of how outdoor results can translate in room and also to illustrate just how much the room acoustics can completely change things. They can be compared between 2 subs but there are large differences in how the room affects even fairly similar designs like the vtf15 and XV15. Just don't assume those results indicate anything accurate regarding what to expect in your situation.

Also I wanted to note that the CEA-2010 results that I measured for 1port and 2port modes of the VTF15H were within less than a dB from HSU's posted results for both modes in every band from 16-80Hz except for 2 ports 16Hz which is off enough that it is likely a typo or error. Anyway that shows that HSU's results are correct if anyone had any doubts.

Sorry posting from the phone...

Please read this post by Ricci again. The bolded part was an eye opener for me a couple years ago. For example, say there is a large bump at 60hz at your listening position. It will give you low distortion at that frequency, but even if you EQ it down, that mode will still effect any distortion harmonics of lower frequencies which cannot be EQ'd down. And just the opposite will happen with any nulls. Distortion will rise at the null frequency, but the harmonics will also be attenuated. CEA tests, outdoors or in room, are max output at specific frequencies with limits at different harmonics. While room gain will be similar (not exactly the same) between different subs if placed at the same location, each sub has different distortion profiles and the effects of the room on the distortion of each sub will be different. So outdoor CEA vs in room, could be effected differently for different subs. And again still so much talk about just CEA numbers. Without also seeing the in room FR sweeps, we don't know how much of the burst output shown in the CEA numbers for each sub is usable with a flat frequency response. It feels like this is falling on deaf ears.

In room vs ground plane measurements are great, and can be very informative, if looked at correctly. IMO, some of the more interesting measurements were from Slartibartfast at Avtalk a couple years ago. He posted a comparison of FR sweeps, compression sweeps, THD and group delay measurements of a DD18 outdoors vs in room. Lots of good discussion about those. I don't have all the graphs anymore and they are no longer on avtalk, but here is the FR and THD graphs to illustrate what Ricci was saying. Look where the spikes in THD are and think how that relates to in room CEA numbers.



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post #223 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 08:53 AM
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Please read this post by Ricci again. The bolded part was an eye opener for me a couple years ago. For example, say there is a large bump at 60hz at your listening position. It will give you low distortion at that frequency, but even if you EQ it down, that mode will still effect any distortion harmonics of lower frequencies which cannot be EQ'd down. And just the opposite will happen with any nulls. Distortion will rise at the null frequency, but the harmonics will also be attenuated. CEA tests, outdoors or in room, are max output at specific frequencies with limits at different harmonics. While room gain will be similar (not exactly the same) between different subs if placed at the same location, each sub has different distortion profiles and the effects of the room on the distortion of each sub will be different. So outdoor CEA vs in room, could be effected differently for different subs. And again still so much talk about just CEA numbers. Without also seeing the in room FR sweeps, we don't know how much of the burst output shown in the CEA numbers for each sub is usable with a flat frequency response. It feels like this is falling on deaf ears.

In room vs ground plane measurements are great, and can be very informative, if looked at correctly. IMO, some of the more interesting measurements were from Slartibartfast at Avtalk a couple years ago. He posted a comparison of FR sweeps, compression sweeps, THD and group delay measurements of a DD18 outdoors vs in room. Lots of good discussion about those. I don't have all the graphs anymore and they are no longer on avtalk, but here is the FR and THD graphs to illustrate what Ricci was saying. Look where the spikes in THD are and think how that relates to in room CEA numbers.




I agree! This is exactly how I compare every sub system I have owned recently. I EQ flat and then take compression and THD graphs of each. This tells me what each system is really getting and what the limits are in my room at the LP.
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post #224 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like to offer a formal apology to those I may have offended. Sometimes I let my passion for my hobbies and interests get the best of me and it becomes more of a competition. That is my competitive nature thats been apart of my life growing up...especially being a multi-sport athlete most of my life. From here on out my posting style is going to change with threads like this. I know most of the subwoofers we discuss are very high quality, some are better then others. I will be the guy to step up and admit I do believe the HSU VTF-15 is a better sub as it should for its price point. I do appreciate everybodies help and advice since I joined this site!


Cheers,

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post #225 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 06:42 PM
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Basshead81, it takes a really big man to do what you did. Whether I feel you do or do not need to apologize to anyone is irrelevant. The fact that you did it speaks volumes to your character and I applaud you.

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post #226 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 06:48 PM
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+1. Cheer!
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post #227 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would like to offer a formal apology to those I may have offended. Sometimes I let my passion for my hobbies and interests get the best of me and it becomes more of a competition. That is my competitive nature thats been apart of my life growing up...especially being a multi-sport athlete most of my life. From here on out my posting style is going to change with threads like this. I know most of the subwoofers we discuss are very high quality, some are better then others. I will be the guy to step up and admit I do believe the HSU VTF-15 is a better sub as it should for its price point. I do appreciate everybodies help and advice since I joined this site!


Cheers,

Basshead81 smile.gif

I think it happens to everyone once in a while so I wouldn't sweat it too much Bass, and at the same time you've had a lot of good posts. Not to mention that you helped get the ball rolled on getting the VTF-15H tested by Josh.

The VTF-15H is a better sub but at the same time everything's relative, that doesn't really take anything away from what the XV15 has to offer either.
We should feel lucky to have some many great difference choices at almost any price point.
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post #228 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would like to offer a formal apology to those I may have offended. Sometimes I let my passion for my hobbies and interests get the best of me and it becomes more of a competition. That is my competitive nature thats been apart of my life growing up...especially being a multi-sport athlete most of my life. From here on out my posting style is going to change with threads like this. I know most of the subwoofers we discuss are very high quality, some are better then others. I will be the guy to step up and admit I do believe the HSU VTF-15 is a better sub as it should for its price point. I do appreciate everybodies help and advice since I joined this site!


Cheers,

Basshead81 smile.gif

+1

Very well spoken. The important thing is to enjoy this hobby.

A big hug.


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post #229 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 08:56 PM
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One thing about it we or most of us take this hobby very seriously and enjoy it immensely and at the same time learn things from each other.
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post #230 of 233 Old 09-17-2013, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would like to offer a formal apology to those I may have offended. Sometimes I let my passion for my hobbies and interests get the best of me and it becomes more of a competition. That is my competitive nature thats been apart of my life growing up...especially being a multi-sport athlete most of my life. From here on out my posting style is going to change with threads like this. I know most of the subwoofers we discuss are very high quality, some are better then others. I will be the guy to step up and admit I do believe the HSU VTF-15 is a better sub as it should for its price point. I do appreciate everybodies help and advice since I joined this site!


Cheers,

Basshead81 smile.gif

So much I could say here bass, but I’ll be short as not to embarrass you. Your passion and enthusiasm has been a joy along with your ability to put so much collective data together and bring it forth in the manner that you do or have. I simply find it a honor knowing you and greatly appreciate your participation on this forum. We all evolve and learn as we move along our bass journey. cool.gif

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post #231 of 233 Old 09-18-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I would like to offer a formal apology to those I may have offended. Sometimes I let my passion for my hobbies and interests get the best of me and it becomes more of a competition. That is my competitive nature thats been apart of my life growing up...especially being a multi-sport athlete most of my life. From here on out my posting style is going to change with threads like this. I know most of the subwoofers we discuss are very high quality, some are better then others. I will be the guy to step up and admit I do believe the HSU VTF-15 is a better sub as it should for its price point. I do appreciate everybodies help and advice since I joined this site!


Cheers,

Basshead81 smile.gif

i have not read all of your posts, but i for one have never felt offended in the slightest by anything you have siad. i have found it all very informative and good conversation. im no Shakespear myslef, so im sure i come off in a way thats not intended sometimes as well. its hard to write in a manner that gives everyone the same intended impression.

lets get back to bass, shall we?!!

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post #232 of 233 Old 09-18-2013, 10:41 AM
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Delete. thread confused me.


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post #233 of 233 Old 09-19-2013, 12:04 AM
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This was a great thread to read and very enlightning. Thanks to all who donated money and also Ricci at Data-Bass. Its so cool to see a bunch of dudes with the same love and passion get togther and make something like this happen.

Cheers to all!!

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