Help pairing B&W 600 series with a subwoofer - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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My home theater equipment is on the first floor of my ranch. The house has laminate flooring (with large area rugs) and an *open floor plan*. From what I've read here and elsewhere, these two things make for terrible acoustics, but it's simply something I cannot change and have no desire to build a dedicated HT room in the basement.

I have recently purchased a pair of B&W 683 and HTM61. I have yet to purchase a subwoofer and surround speakers. I plan to use a Denon 2309ci in the immediate future, but will likely need to upgrade this soon because of a faulty HDMI port.

The area where my HT equipment sits has 2 exterior walls, a half wall, a large area of open space and then an interior wall behind it. Here is a picture with some basic measurements. Note, the large couch has a half wall behind it separating it from the stairway.

http://i.imgur.com/ZehIoSa.jpg

It's hard to depict in a 2D drawing, but the first floor has a large space without interior walls. The image below shows an overlay of open air space. This includes a stairway and basically 4 rooms (living, breakfast, kitchen and dining).

http://i.imgur.com/QvGF9qq.jpg

I fear that I'll have to purchase a subwoofer to pressurize the area in red. If so, I imagine my current hopes of a modest subwoofer budget are unrealistic. Can anyone shed some guidance on how to choose a subwoofer that will give me a balance of good performance for movies without rattling my dishes out of my kitchen cabinets. smile.gif

I'll also follow up with questions about my surround speakers in the appropriate forum.
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post #2 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 01:24 PM
 
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If so, I imagine my current hopes of a modest subwoofer budget are unrealistic.

First things first....set a budget and then triple it. I didn't see a budget posted. What is your budget?

How high are your ceiling so one can determine cu ft.

Expectations aside, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them you're willing to throw at this issue.

Multiple subs are better than a single subwoofer.

Expect to have trouble getting your subwoofer system to play and get along well with your room's acoustics.

A large open space such as yours is best served using vented subs.

20Hz is the minimum standard to shoot for. <15Hz is better than >20Hz.

Repeating myself, in the end, it's all about the number of Benjamins one is willing to throw into their budget.

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post #3 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I just chatted with someone at SVS. They recommended several models but seemed to think 2 vented subs would suit me best. Their price range is $1-1.5k depending on which set I select. I'd say that's the upper end of what I'm willing to pay.

9ft ceilings. Sorry about leaving that out. smile.gif
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post #4 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by techstl View Post

I just chatted with someone at SVS. They recommended several models but seemed to think 2 vented subs would suit me best. Their price range is $1-1.5k depending on which set I select. I'd say that's the upper end of what I'm willing to pay.

9ft ceilings. Sorry about leaving that out. smile.gif

Might I ask what they suggested?

EDIT> It sounds like you might want to look elsewhere but still plan on spending that kind of $$.

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post #5 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I would feel better if they commented on their recommendation. I'm concerned that they may have asked questions which I haven't answered here. And thus, the recommendation that they gave me might not be applicable to someone else matching the criteria I provided in the first post. If you were to visit their site and sort all of their subwoofers by price, you'd get a good idea of the recommendations they made. If you're considering their subs, I suggest trying to chat with them on their website. They were very responsive and helpful. biggrin.gif

Could you explain why you think another solution is better in this price range? After all, that's the point of this thread! smile.gif
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post #6 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 03:19 PM
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I would feel better if they commented on their recommendation. I'm concerned that they may have asked questions which I haven't answered here. And thus, the recommendation that they gave me might not be applicable to someone else matching the criteria I provided in the first post. If you were to visit their site and sort all of their subwoofers by price, you'd get a good idea of the recommendations they made. If you're considering their subs, I suggest trying to chat with them on their website. They were very responsive and helpful. biggrin.gif

Could you explain why you think another solution is better in this price range? After all, that's the point of this thread! smile.gif

Oh I think you might have me wrong. I have had 13 of their SW offerings and really respect their subs and SVS as a company. It just seemed like you had a lot of space to fill is all, and I was possibly thinking of the most bang for your buck SW wise. I generally try to recommend SVS as a option as often as I can. If you would like to stay with looking at SVS options, I’m totally good with that. smile.gif

EDIT>I’m most comfortable talking SVS.

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post #7 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 03:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techstl View Post

I just chatted with someone at SVS. They recommended several models but seemed to think 2 vented subs would suit me best. Their price range is $1-1.5k depending on which set I select. I'd say that's the upper end of what I'm willing to pay.

9ft ceilings. Sorry about leaving that out. smile.gif

Okay, based on your above and your posted images, may I recommend three Rythmik, LV12R's.; $1,700.00. Three vented subs are more than capable of filling your large space with subwoofer based sound because at >20Hz, they have great output capability. Due to how a room responds to a subwoofer's output and room smoothing issues, three subs are better than two. And three of these subwoofers are more than capable of giving you great bass at <20Hz.

If you went with SVS, I'd recommend two PC12-NSD's for depth of extension and overall output.

One would also find happiness in a pair of PSA, XV15's, $1,518.00.

Personally, of the above three recommendations, being that I'm a three subwoofer kinda guy, based on your quasi stated budget and posted room size, without hesitation or doubt, I would pick the three LV12R subwoofer solution. As to the other two choices, in my opinion they're a coin toss as either of the choices would bring a smile to your face.

If one is willing, they can buy two of the above choices and if not satisfied, later add a third matching subwoofer.

One additional point, after one throws their allotted Benjamins at the problem, it becomes all about the smile factor. Everything else becomes a detail regarding how one gets to the smile factor.

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post #8 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 03:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techstl View Post

I just chatted with someone at SVS. They recommended several models but seemed to think 2 vented subs would suit me best. Their price range is $1-1.5k depending on which set I select. I'd say that's the upper end of what I'm willing to pay.

9ft ceilings. Sorry about leaving that out. smile.gif

Okay, based on your above and your posted images, may I recommend three Rythmik, LV12R's.; $1,700.00. Three vented subs are more than capable of filling your large space with subwoofer based sound because at >20Hz, they have great output capability. Due to how a room responds to a subwoofer's output and room smoothing issues, three subs are better than two. And three of these subwoofers are more than capable of giving you great bass at <20Hz.

If you went with SVS, I'd recommend two PC12-NSD's for depth of extension and overall output.

One would also find happiness in a pair of PSA, XV15's, $1,518.00.

Personally, of the above three recommendations, being that I'm a three subwoofer kinda guy, based on your quasi stated budget and posted room size, without hesitation or doubt, I would pick the three LV12R subwoofer solution. As to the other two choices, in my opinion they're a coin toss as either of the choices would bring a smile to your face.

If one is willing, they can buy two of the above choices and if not satisfied, later add a third matching subwoofer.

One additional point, after one throws their allotted Benjamins at the problem, it becomes all about the smile factor. Everything else becomes a detail regarding how one gets to the smile factor.
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post #10 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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It figures that the first guy that gives me a recommendation has stretched the budget even further. biggrin.gif Will this require a receiver that provides 3 sub preamps? Or would I need anything other than quality RCA cables to install them?

I get the feeling that the consensus around here is to get the best you can afford. In my other hobbies, that tends to mean, you shop for things in your budget and then you find something "you gotta have" that stretches your budget. I've never heard 3 Rythmik subs.. perhaps if I did.. they have the "gotta have it" mojo. If we're comparing apples to apples, it looks like the SVS PB-1000 is more comparable the Rythmik subs both in price and in my rather rudimentary comparison of the frequency response graphs. So, if I gotta have 3, why? If I gotta have Rythmik, why? biggrin.gif

The purpose of this post is not necessarily to learn what subs fit in/near my budget, but rather learn what features/specs of a sub should matter most for me. For example, if more subs equates to a better experience, why not buy (5) Klipsch RW-12D. biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 04:03 PM
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I would suggest going with the PB-12+ and then adding a second latter if you so do desire. One will fill a lot of space!

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb12-plus





12+

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post #12 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 04:11 PM
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If we're comparing apples to apples, it looks like the SVS PB-1000 is more comparable the Rythmik subs both in price and in my rather rudimentary comparison of the frequency response graphs.


I’m afraid it won’t.. 10” as apposed to a 12” driver and enclosure size.

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post #13 of 18 Old 06-27-2013, 04:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by techstl View Post

It figures that the first guy that gives me a recommendation has stretched the budget even further. biggrin.gif

We're very flexible like that.

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Will this require a receiver that provides 3 sub preamps? Or would I need anything other than quality RCA cables to install them?

Nothing that quality "Y" adapters won't fix.

Quote:
I get the feeling that the consensus around here is to get the best you can afford.

I think it's more along the lines of us being "stuck" with what fits into our budget but yes, always get the best you can, even if it means buying one today and a second one two or three months down the road. I like to characterize subwoofers as a journey and not a destination.

I see that steve nn suggested buying a PB12 Plus now and a second one later. That works. It never hurts to half-step and hee-ha your way through the process as in this case, with time and more purchases, things get nothing but better.

Quote:
I've never heard 3 Rythmik subs.. perhaps if I did.. they have the "gotta have it" mojo. If we're comparing apples to apples, it looks like the SVS PB-1000 is more comparable the Rythmik subs both in price and in my rather rudimentary comparison of the frequency response graphs. So, if I gotta have 3, why? If I gotta have Rythmik, why? biggrin.gif

My personal experience, it takes three subwoofers to bring a room to life. The SVS, PB-1000 is not comparable to a Rythmik, LV12R. The Rythmik has direct servo. Go to their web site and read. The direct servo adds to the articulation experience and the LV12R digs deeper than the PB-1000.

Quote:
The purpose of this post is not necessarily to learn what subs fit in/near my budget, but rather learn what features/specs of a sub should matter most for me. For example, if more subs equates to a better experience, why not buy (5) Klipsch RW-12D. biggrin.gif

In a nutshell, overall output and depth of extension with limited distortion and plenty of headroom at high output being an important consideration is the why. In your example, one cannot make five Klipsch, RW-12d's dig as deep as you can get three LV12R's to go, no matter how much one jumps up and down

Three subs will lift the left side of a graph (in the same way, two won't) once the output is EQ'd flat which makes the lower octaves usable by adding energy into the lower octaves.

Now you're getting into methods of measuring and EQ'g your room.

One way to creep up on the whole subwoofer thing is to buy a single decent subwoofer at <$800.00. Acquire room measuring capability. Acquire and learn to use EQ appliances. Now that's done, add a second subwoofer and then a third subwoofer. Doing it this way, I'm sure my above will have much more meaning.

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post #14 of 18 Old 06-28-2013, 05:31 AM
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Here is a great review of the Rythmik LV12R that might interest you if you decide on going a dif direction? http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/67309-rythmik-lv12r-subwoofer-review.html

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post #15 of 18 Old 06-28-2013, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Holy cow.. I just did a Google image search for the PB12-Plus.. and there is no way I could justify putting 2 of those in my living room. eek.gif That sucker is huuge! "That's what she said." RIP Office.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/TheFactor_photos/DSC01336.jpg
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post #16 of 18 Old 06-28-2013, 10:16 AM
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Holy cow.. I just did a Google image search for the PB12-Plus.. and there is no way I could justify putting 2 of those in my living room. eek.gif That sucker is huuge! "That's what she said." RIP Office.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/TheFactor_photos/DSC01336.jpg

I posted a pic for you on the last page but I Guess it didn't relay the size very well. I’m tempted to post a few prior DIY builds that I have done and then see if you still feel it’s that big? I’ll spare you though. One thing to remember, the smaller you go with retaining the same type of performance, the more expensive. In reality you only need so much though.. well, unless you make it a habit of hanging around here. rolleyes.gifsmile.gif

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post #17 of 18 Old 07-01-2013, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I've decided on the PC12-NSD. I don't really have the space for 3 subs, so I'm going to start with one PC12-NSD and hope I won't have to grow beyond 2. biggrin.gif
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post #18 of 18 Old 07-01-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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PC12-NSD ordered.
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