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post #361 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 01:45 PM
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the graph looks better with the phase set 0.
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post #362 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Indeed, but when you look at using EQ the peaks and dips are much smaller with the phase at 45.

I plugged a lot of these into the auto eq function of REW and with the 0 phase setting graphs the peaks are so high and dip so low that the EQ can't flatten things out. It pulls the dip down with it.

However with phase at 45* it's very easy to get a flat response via EQ.

This possibly is the reason for the low max output.

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post #363 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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It will be interesting with the Triax... my wife might end up with a craft table in the middle of her art room!

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post #364 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

It will be interesting with the Triax... my wife might end up with a craft table in the middle of her art room!
If we ever get it.

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post #365 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joshjp View Post

If we ever get it.

Ya ... Im not even on the first list. Im expecting at least october.

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post #366 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Ya ... Im not even on the first list. Im expecting at least october.
Wow are you for real?

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post #367 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 08:46 PM
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Hey,
The trims being at their maximums is not good for proper calibration meaning they maybe off from proper levels. I was not talking about max levels. One can reach max levels in many ways. His loud to you get at 6 feet? 3 feet? I mean seriously you should be getting max spl just like Ricci did outside at minimum! If not your subs are faulty. Is Tom trying to figure a connection or setting problem? I think you ruled everynight out, no? Even with a peaky response the peaks should be much higher. Eq will take away headroom but not like what you are showing. To give you an idea I hit 110 dBs from 14 feet away with a single SVS PB2/plus. What type of connections are there on the back of the sub? I assume it has a LFE RCA out jack? You seem to have everything setup correctly. The only other way is to disconnect the sub and start over to make sure it is the sub or subs. Did you try running just one sub at a time to see if the output drops accordingly?
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post #368 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joshjp View Post

Wow are you for real?

That was a wild guess with no weight from Tom behind it. I just figure if the first round hasn't even shipped yet those guys are looking at September. It only makes sense that October would be the earliest the second round of buyers' will see theirs. Hope I'm wrong.....

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post #369 of 600 Old 08-24-2013, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey,
The trims being at their maximums is not good for proper calibration meaning they maybe off from proper levels. I was not talking about max levels. One can reach max levels in many ways. His loud to you get at 6 feet? 3 feet? I mean seriously you should be getting max spl just like Ricci did outside at minimum! If not your subs are faulty. Is Tom trying to figure a connection or setting problem? I think you ruled everynight out, no? Even with a peaky response the peaks should be much higher. Eq will take away headroom but not like what you are showing. To give you an idea I hit 110 dBs from 14 feet away with a single SVS PB2/plus. What type of connections are there on the back of the sub? I assume it has a LFE RCA out jack? You seem to have everything setup correctly. The only other way is to disconnect the sub and start over to make sure it is the sub or subs. Did you try running just one sub at a time to see if the output drops accordingly?

Ok. Right now my sub trim is at -10, and I've read to try and stay at zero or below. This is the sub trim on the AVR.

I am just shy of 3 o'clock on the sub amps. I can certainly turn the sub gain down and up the AVR trim to more middle number as has been recommended.

The subs show proper SPL gain on the meter when I turn one off. I drop ~6 DB when I turn off one sub.

I did today run a ton of quick measures just to experiment with some things. Some of those did include measures of one sub at at time. But I did not save the graphs and wasn't really looking at SPL, more so FR.

I am connected via the LFE RCA jack on the sub amp, correct.

My mic, for all the recent measures, is at 9'6".

Did you look at the most recent graph with the phase changes? I'm not sure if 45* of phase is killing the DBs or not. But there is no configuration of these two speakers in front of the chairs that will give better results than with the left cabinet phase at 45*.

Tom has not replied to my latest email, but last we spoke he did say they are very busy and he is working on my case every couple days.

The only thing I can think is a problem with the subs/amp or AVR LFE out (that's the ONLY thing I have not tested. But the way the subs hit a wall like they do, to me and my limited knowledge, says sub amps our out of juice.

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post #370 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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So I got an email from Tom, and he is clearly busy with something. Hopefully something to do with the Triax.

His reply was a 3 liner and it was evident he had looked at none of the recent graphs, or read the info that accompanied them.

After that I decided I would check the guts. Took the amp off, connections good. Took a sub out, connections good.

The subs are wired in series. I'd say maybe someone wired them in series instead of parallel, but I opened both boxes and verified all connections which were not only good and tight, but identical to one another.

At this point it's either-
Amp problems
Connection problems somewhere in the chain
Room acoustics.

They are all possible, and all that is left. Number two has been troubleshooted to the point I am out of ideas.

Number three..... I'm headed to rat shack to get a longer RCA cable and I'm going to try one of these in the back of the L. Damn the window. And I will place the other on the opposite side of the room in the front.

Number one.... stuck waiting on Tom.

With the way my room is acting I think I'm far from being able to pop one sub of any kind in here. That rules out the Triax. I can't justify having the best if the end result is far from it.

While I'm not convinced there isn't an output problem, I am convinced even if that is solved (example- replaced amps that were faulty) I will still have considerable FR issues.

The L shaped room is a motherf***r......... It is giving me no FR breaks.

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post #371 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 07:49 PM
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I agree the Triax is not going to help the situation...Thats why I have been saying you need multiple subs as much as you do not want to hear this. I would get another xv30 or a pair of xv15's and place them accordingly. Or sell the PSA subs and go DIY. Either way you need multiple subs in that room...4 will dial the FR in and you will be in bass heaven. smile.gif

On a side note, have you tried swapping the xv30's around so the ports are firing away and not into each other?
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post #372 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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4 triax would... biggrin.gif

I'm going to see what one xv30 looks like in the L area. If it looks good alone, I'll stack another one to see what happens. I can't see that smoothing it out across 4 seats though.

I only have room for one sub in the back of the L area. It cuts the room in half from 16' to 8'. I could probably slip an xv 15 just at the beginning of the L 4 ft behind the seats, under the desk but I'm not sure how good that will work.

If I get four subs in here and end up with sh*t .... that's a huge problem with shipping costs to Ohio.

Then I still have the output problems. I really don't see 20db popping up from relocating the subs. There is something going on. I have Avatar on right now and if I go loud enough I can here the subs start to give out. The mains are screaming! Anyways...... I'm frustrated and have said that way too many times in the last few days.

Right now, and for some time, ports have been firing away from each other. I did several measures with ports firing into each other but there wasn't much difference so when I put my false walls and screen up I just situated them ports firing away from each other.

PS-- thanks for participating and helping out. That last suggestion about the ports shows you've been paying attention and are really throwing out anything you can think of. .... Appreciated!

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post #373 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 08:17 PM
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pdxrealtor, you have spent sometime trying to sort things out, a simple test is pull the sub to another part of the room and use a different rca cable, even a cheap red/back for a BDP and if the output remains low, send the sub back. The entire room can't be a bad spot. No graphs needed, just an spl meter and correction table.

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post #374 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

pdxrealtor, you have spent sometime trying to sort things out, a simple test is pull the sub to another part of the room and use a different rca cable, even a cheap red/back for a BDP and if the output remains low, send the sub back. The entire room can't be a bad spot. No graphs needed, just an spl meter and correction table.

I have the digi Rat Shack meter. I don't think a correction table is needed is it?

Anyways.... I started moving subs yesterday afternoon. Actually had them out and standing up firing into the L (amongst several other locations). I get peaks that get higher, but nothing close to 120-125 which is minimum for this setup, per Tom pre-sales. I should actually see ~130.

I have not, since doing max DB sweeps, been able to get the best null past ~105. I don't even think I've got a peak past 115.

The guys here seem to think, after all the graphs of mine they've looked at, that something is wrong and it isn't the room .

I want to agree. I mean no mater what I hit a brick wall with output, yet have 15DB of AVR volume to increase without any, or very little, sub output. Something just ain't right. .....

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post #375 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 08:31 PM
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Anyway you can swing buy a best buy and pick up a different AVR and then return it if it makes no difference? Grab something like a Yamaha 775 or 830.
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post #376 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyway you can swing buy a best buy and pick up a different AVR and then return it if it makes no difference? Grab something like a Yamaha 775 or 830.

Oh man..... thinking of that just hurts. I literally today just organized all my wires and speaker cords etc.... (got my last box installed, the Dune).... Oh.... I guess all I would have to do is hook up the LFE, and not even unhook my PIO..... hmmmm....

I'll have to check on restock fee. God I would literally take this pioneer and toss it in the air over some concrete if that was the problem. Then I'd take it back to Costco..... no questions asked. lol...

Good idea.

Best Buy and Rat Shack are across the street from each other.

Does anyone know if these duals are supposed to be series or parallel wired?

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post #377 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 08:57 PM
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all depends on the ohm load of the drivers...dual 4ohm subs wired in series would be a 8ohm load.
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post #378 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

all depends on the ohm load of the drivers...dual 4ohm subs wired in series would be a 8ohm load.
For sure...

I didn't see any numbers stamped on the amp or the basket. I looked. I can tell you that the XV basket is double drilled for dual VC. Most likely the same basket the Triax is using. Which can't be a bad thing..... it's a stout basket.

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post #379 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

So I got an email from Tom, and he is clearly busy with something. Hopefully something to do with the Triax.

His reply was a 3 liner and it was evident he had looked at none of the recent graphs, or read the info that accompanied them.

After that I decided I would check the guts. Took the amp off, connections good. Took a sub out, connections good.

The subs are wired in series. I'd say maybe someone wired them in series instead of parallel, but I opened both boxes and verified all connections which were not only good and tight, but identical to one another.

At this point it's either-
Amp problems
Connection problems somewhere in the chain
Room acoustics.

They are all possible, and all that is left. Number two has been troubleshooted to the point I am out of ideas.

Number three..... I'm headed to rat shack to get a longer RCA cable and I'm going to try one of these in the back of the L. Damn the window. And I will place the other on the opposite side of the room in the front.

Number one.... stuck waiting on Tom.

With the way my room is acting I think I'm far from being able to pop one sub of any kind in here. That rules out the Triax. I can't justify having the best if the end result is far from it.

While I'm not convinced there isn't an output problem, I am convinced even if that is solved (example- replaced amps that were faulty) I will still have considerable FR issues.

The L shaped room is a motherf***r......... It is giving me no FR breaks.

I've been following this thread hoping you would find the problem. I wish I had something new to suggest but it seems you've been very thorough covering the possibilities.

I'm curious.....what sub(s) did you use before and how did it perform in that room in terms of output? My apologies if this was already answered earlier in the thread. redface.gif

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For sure...

I didn't see any numbers stamped on the amp or the basket. I looked. I can tell you that the XV basket is double drilled for dual VC. Most likely the same basket the Triax is using. Which can't be a bad thing..... it's a stout basket.

Interesting....

I thought I read somewhere though that the Triax drivers are from a different vender?

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post #381 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been following this thread hoping you would find the problem. I wish I had something new to suggest but it seems you've been very thorough covering the possibilities.

I'm curious.....what sub(s) did you use before and how did it perform in that room in terms of output? My apologies if this was already answered earlier in the thread. redface.gif


No worries... To answer your question this room has never had a sub..... It's a ground up theater build. Last room in the house to get a remodel............

I have faith it will get worked out.... it's to the point that I am very frustrated though. Not impatient, just frustrated.

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post #382 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting....

I thought I read somewhere though that the Triax drivers are from a different vender?

Could be........ just seems like both are built in the same basket. See my avatar.

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post #383 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:21 PM
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Sorry your having all these problems, every movie i tried i could play at reference level and didnt hear any distortion, the only time i did was on Pulse and Underworld Awakening, both plus 3 after reference level.

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post #384 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:23 PM
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After the credits on Avatar there is a THX demo, its nuts you gotta try it.

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post #385 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:27 PM
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Could be........ just seems like both are built in the same basket. See my avatar.

Ah, I see what you mean. They do look like they would have come from the same vendor. I guess it's possible that different vendors get the baskets from the same place (do the driver vendors manufacture their own baskets?).

Not that it really matters though. wink.gif

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Tom got around to checking my XV-30s and said they were both in phase, so i guess thats a good thing, but i still find it odd that i get a better responce with one sub what a shame frown.gif

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post #387 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 09:29 PM
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Als today i decided to measure my computer setup witht the omni mic, wow talk about a crappy bass responce its just awful.

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post #388 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Ah, I see what you mean. They do look like they would have come from the same vendor. I guess it's possible that different vendors get the baskets from the same place (do the driver vendors manufacture their own baskets?).

Not that it really matters though. wink.gif


It's probably the same vendor. Seems like there is a different vendor for just the magnets. There is probably a few vendors that supply parts for one driver.

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post #389 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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After the credits on Avatar there is a THX demo, its nuts you gotta try it.

Damn..... saw this too late. It was actually a download. I was setting up my Dune box and Zappiti player. I'm not even sure if the DL included the demo. I'm scrapping that setup and will buy the BD of Avatar. I'll look for it then. Been wanting to hear a THX demo........

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Tom got around to checking my XV-30s and said they were both in phase, so i guess thats a good thing, but i still find it odd that i get a better responce with one sub what a shame frown.gif

You mean he checked them after he received them back? Did it ever come up while you had them...... that you check them?

I'm going to call him tomorrow. It's either time to send them back or time to figure this out and move forward.

I wish I had an easily accessible extra receiver in the house. The only one I have is in the bedroom closet, and it's a PITA to get to. Buying one wouldn't be the best use of time, but I guess if I have to I have to.

This is kind of getting out of hand................

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post #390 of 600 Old 08-25-2013, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Damn..... saw this too late. It was actually a download. I was setting up my Dune box and Zappiti player. I'm not even sure if the DL included the demo. I'm scrapping that setup and will buy the BD of Avatar. I'll look for it then. Been wanting to hear a THX demo........
You mean he checked them after he received them back? Did it ever come up while you had them...... that you check them?

I'm going to call him tomorrow. It's either time to send them back or time to figure this out and move forward.

I wish I had an easily accessible extra receiver in the house. The only one I have is in the bedroom closet, and it's a PITA to get to. Buying one wouldn't be the best use of time, but I guess if I have to I have to.

This is kind of getting out of hand................
A buddy mentioned to check the wireing in the sub, i just checked the amp connection and they were fine, a asked Tom about it and he said its unlikely it could happen, but he check them at the shop and said they were both in phase and running correctly, it sucks as i didnt want to box them up and send them back, but now that thats over with i gotta wait to get the Triax and hope i get a better or same responce as i did with a single XV-30

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