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post #181 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Do you hear this with each sub? Play one at a time and see if they sound the same. Does your mains make this sound when playing alone and full range? Maybe it is not at the frequency you think? I would start ruling out where it is coming from. If you already know the subs, both of them? Then run a sweep and listen for that sound to pin point the frequency.

I did play one enclosure at a time, same sound. It seems to be less extreme with the mains playing.

Can you tell me how to run REW while listening to music and pinpoint a screen shot when I'm hearing the upper FR go south? I'm thinking it could be done with the RTA , no?

Another thing- I should be hitting 130 DB easily with 4 15's and mic at ~9ft away at LP.

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post #182 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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post #183 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 02:50 PM
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Here is an SPL meter pic playing the sub demo music OEB supplied me with.

MCACC off, Mini Dsp EQ off, mains off. Just subs. Mic ~9 ft from speakers.

Xover @ 80 hz., gain on sub amps 3 oclock, sub trim on AVR I think 3, if not zero .

In any event...... these subs lack ability in upper bass notes. They can handle the lower bass at the same volumes, but when getting into the upper frequencies they seem to fall apart at max listening levels.

The amps were just a hair beyond warm after two rounds of the same test music. I could press my hand on the amp, but my hand began to feel uncomfortable.

I don't see how any setting can fix this, but I'm all ears. The last thing I want to do is send these guys back, but it's looking like more than ever like that may be a possibility.

Sounds like your setup is off. those subs do not lack anything in the upper bass. when the mini dsp is off you have a dip at 50-60hz or a huge peak @ 30hz going off of your old graphs. Thats why your upper bass is lacking. I would add more subs...changing subwoofers is not going to fix that problem.
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post #184 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Sounds like your setup is off. those subs do not lack anything in the upper bass. when the mini dsp is off you have a dip at 50-60hz or a huge peak @ 30hz going off of your old graphs. Thats why your upper bass is lacking. I would add more subs...changing subwoofers is not going to fix that problem.

Older graphs are out the window. I've moved the LP out of the null and into a peak at 30-40hz.

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post #185 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Sounds like your setup is off. those subs do not lack anything in the upper bass. when the mini dsp is off you have a dip at 50-60hz or a huge peak @ 30hz going off of your old graphs. Thats why your upper bass is lacking. I would add more subs...changing subwoofers is not going to fix that problem.

This seems like the idea to try however I think there is a easier solution. He has very capable mains to play midbass at reference and lower. First, I would run a sweep with the mains plus the subs and see what is happening. I bet all he needs is a crossover, phase, and/or a distance setting adjustment to fix that null near the crossover. I bet he will have phase issues with both playing and they are canceling each other out during music or movies and then makes it sound weak or thin, or whatever. I can tell you from experience going from a null at 70-90hz at my crossover to flat after adjusting the distance settings alone made it seem I went from 5 inch mains to dual 15inch jbl 2226's! Tweak and tweak some more. Nevermind the EQ yet, get that transition area perfect first. This is what Bosso was talking about, running with the mains on. Those JBL's will reinforce anything the PSA have when in proper phase and time alignment!
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post #186 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

This seems like the idea to try however I think there is a easier solution. He has very capable mains to play midbass at reference and lower. First, I would run a sweep with the mains plus the subs and see what is happening. I bet all he needs is a crossover, phase, and/or a distance setting adjustment to fix that null near the crossover. I bet he will have phase issues with both playing and they are canceling each other out during music or movies and then makes it sound weak or thin, or whatever. I can tell you from experience going from a null at 70-90hz at my crossover to flat after adjusting the distance settings alone made it seem I went from 5 inch mains to dual 15inch jbl 2226's! Tweak and tweak some more. Nevermind the EQ yet, get that transition area perfect first. This is what Bosso was talking about, running with the mains on. Those JBL's will reinforce anything the PSA have when in proper phase and time alignment!

I agree with that!
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post #187 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

This seems like the idea to try however I think there is a easier solution. He has very capable mains to play midbass at reference and lower. First, I would run a sweep with the mains plus the subs and see what is happening. I bet all he needs is a crossover, phase, and/or a distance setting adjustment to fix that null near the crossover. I bet he will have phase issues with both playing and they are canceling each other out during music or movies and then makes it sound weak or thin, or whatever. I can tell you from experience going from a null at 70-90hz at my crossover to flat after adjusting the distance settings alone made it seem I went from 5 inch mains to dual 15inch jbl 2226's! Tweak and tweak some more. Nevermind the EQ yet, get that transition area perfect first. This is what Bosso was talking about, running with the mains on. Those JBL's will reinforce anything the PSA have when in proper phase and time alignment!

I've played with the following- all documented in this thread (MK- I don't blame you for not reading start to finish)

1) - Moved subs all over the room
2) - Adjusted gain settings
3) - added floor to ceiling bass traps in the front corners
4) - Adjust phase settings on both subs individually and together- found the best setting is phase on left cabinet set at 45 +1 is the best. (the right cabinet phase doesn't do much, but THE LITTLEST PHASE ADJUST ON THE LEFT CABINET makes a huge difference.)
5)Moved the LP until I got out of the nasty null. 1 ft. back is the magic spot. While one reading (EX left seat right side) s perfect except the 30=40hz peak, a spatial average gets skewed because the far right and far left produce nulls.

Current average of all LP - spatial average of left and right chairs.

Spatial average minus far left chair measure.

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post #188 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Older graphs are out the window. I've moved the LP out of the null and into a peak at 30-40hz.

The 30-40hz peak will make the upper bass and ultra low bass sound weak as well. 18hz is down 12-13db and 80hz is down 10db. basically those frequncies will sound half as loud as the 30-40hz range... There is a xv30 b stock for 1259.00.
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post #189 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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The 30-40hz peak will make the upper bass and ultra low bass sound weak as well.

Then why does the mini dsp not make it sound better?

I'm wondering if I'm setting something on the mini dsp the wrong way.

I just got setup to run measures with the mains and the subs combined.

What is the consensus for DB? I've always read 80. If that is wrong please let me know and I will adjust.

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post #190 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 03:46 PM
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First, I would just start fresh and measure at the LP only. Lets start with a simple sweep with the mains and subs on with them level matched at 75 dBs. Just to start. See what it shows, then you can move the subs to different locations(where available, start with one sub at a time) and get different sweeps to find the smoothest graph out of the locations. I can't tell you how many times I had to move those huge DTS-10's for a better response because if I did not do that I would have killed the dynamics with all the EQ needed.
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post #191 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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full range = left/right/ subs

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post #192 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Then why does the mini dsp not make it sound better?

I'm wondering if I'm setting something on the mini dsp the wrong way.

I just got setup to run measures with the mains and the subs combined.

What is the consensus for DB? I've always read 80. If that is wrong please let me know and I will adjust.

heavy eq'ing makes a artificial graph...I believe Bosso pointed this out. When you pull down a peak 10db, then everything else needs to be raised up. I went thru the same thing you did. I had eq'd my dual xv15's flat and the graph looked sweet...it even sounded great at low volumes, but when I turned it up, the sound went to **** and the amps got hot. Basically you are killing your headroom. EQ'ing frequencies over 100hz does not eat up much headroom because it does not take alot of power to produce those frequencies. Sub 100hz frequencies are a complete different animal especially infrasonic.

I measure with all speakers because thats how I listen.

The consensus is around 90db seems to be best. I know others claim 75-80db but I would take Bosso's advice.

What I am learning is if you want a killer sub system, then add as many subs as required to get a good response. Multiple subs is where its at. This is why I did not return my XV15's for a single Triax. If I could afford or justify spending 8500.00 on subs, then I probably would have triple Triaxes, Caps, or SubM's. But you are better off figuring out a budget and purchasing as many subs your budget will allow. And no I am not saying run out and buy 10 200.00 sub woofers either.
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post #193 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

First, I would just start fresh and measure at the LP only. Lets start with a simple sweep with the mains and subs on with them level matched at 75 dBs. Just to start. See what it shows, then you can move the subs to different locations(where available, start with one sub at a time) and get different sweeps to find the smoothest graph out of the locations. I can't tell you how many times I had to move those huge DTS-10's for a better response because if I did not do that I would have killed the dynamics with all the EQ needed.

I will and can do all of the above , but realize I 've lugged the speakers around enough. Prior to building around them. SO for two reasons they aren't getting lugged around.

1_ done that

2_ built around them. They are where they are.

If that's OK, great. I'll run the tests you suggest.

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post #194 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

heavy eq'ing makes a artificial graph...I believe Bosso pointed this out. When you pull down a peak 10db, then everything else needs to be raised up. I went thru the same thing you did. I had eq'd my dual xv15's flat and the graph looked sweet...it even sounded great at low volumes, but when I turned it up, the sound went to **** and the amps got hot. Basically you are killing your headroom. EQ'ing frequencies over 100hz does not eat up much headroom because it does not take alot of power to produce those frequencies. Sub 100hz frequencies are a complete different animal especially infrasonic.

I measure with all speakers because thats how I listen.

The consensus is around 90db seems to be best. I know others claim 75-80db but I would take Bosso's advice.

What I am learning is if you want a killer sub system, then add as many subs as required to get a good response. Multiple subs is where its at. This is why I did not return my XV15's for a single Triax. If I could afford or justify spending 8500.00 on subs, then I probably would have triple Triaxes, Caps, or SubM's. But you are better off figuring out a budget and purchasing as many subs your budget will allow. And no I am not saying run out and buy 10 200.00 sub woofers either.

LOL.. don't lie. You know you want 10 parts express specials! biggrin.gif

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post #195 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Then why does the mini dsp not make it sound better?

I'm wondering if I'm setting something on the mini dsp the wrong way.

I just got setup to run measures with the mains and the subs combined.

What is the consensus for DB? I've always read 80. If that is wrong please let me know and I will adjust.

You could very well be clipping the input or output of the minidsp. It can be checked by looking at the input output metering. If it is getting to -6 (this was measured i think in the minidsp thread) you are clipping. This may be what you are hearing at max drive levels. I was and turned the gain on subs up, with receiver out at -9 being flat.

Also did you try nearfield right behind the seats? This would take the room more out of the equation.

AIY or DIY 8 SI 18" would be my reco if you decide to change subs. They also have some 24" drivers in the works. Why beat around the bush when you can have ample headroom for eq and pissing off the neighbors. smile.gif
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post #196 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 04:48 PM
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You don't have move the subs, just level match them so they are flat and then run the sweep. With the bass hot it gives you the wrong impression of the crossover region. Run a sweep from 5-200 hz after you level match them and make sure the sweep is over 90 dBs. We will go from there. We will find the problem. Take out all the extra EQ's out of the chain as well to eliminate them as setup errors, minidsp.
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post #197 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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RTA videos - I'm not sure if they help or not. But they show the same peak consistently as the SPL graphs.

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post #198 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 05:45 PM
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Where are you measuring? It should be right at your ear height where you are listening. If it is then try moving the mic forward or backwards 6-12 inches to see if the peak goes away, it is does try moving the seats there are the subs forward or back(if possible).
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post #199 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Where are you measuring? It should be right at your ear height where you are listening. If it is then try moving the mic forward or backwards 6-12 inches to see if the peak goes away, it is does try moving the seats there are the subs forward or back(if possible).


The Mic is at ear level , after much experimentation forward and backward I believe I have found the best LP in relation to the subs. .

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post #200 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

full range = left/right/ subs

Does it bother anyone (else) that >200Hz is -20 to -25dB relative to the bass graphs?eek.gif

Granted, I like my bass as much as the next guy, but that's a house curve to end all house curves.wink.gif

I think the whole thing needs to be flatter before anything else can be done.

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #201 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 06:41 PM
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Well it needs to be flat so we can gauge the cross over area since this is where a seamless integration occurs. If he runs his speakers full range without subs and then runs small with subs and something is lacking it is this area. I would run a sweep of the mains without subs full range to get an idea what is happening there. If the response is the same it should sound similar. Of course you need to run a sweep high enough or 100 dBs is good. Believe it or not when I had my JBL pros I measured them flat to 20hz in room. I never measured if the THD was any good at higher levels though but in room these were extending very deep. They are used to a huge cinema not a tiny room in comparison. Btw, at what level and what song does this sound happen on? Try running the mains full range with the subs off to see if it happens and show the graph of the mains alone without subs.
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post #202 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 06:54 PM
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Agreed. The subs are +20dB hot. I wouldn't be able to listen to music for 5 seconds with that calibration.

Turn the subs waaaaay down, preferably in the AVRs SW trim, if you have it set to +10 or something like that. The SW trim should be a negative number. Bump the sweep level (your mains are in the noise floor) to 90-95dB and use 1/6 octave smoothing on the trace.
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post #203 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Agreed. The subs are +20dB hot. I wouldn't be able to listen to music for 5 seconds with that calibration.

Turn the subs waaaaay down, preferably in the AVRs SW trim, if you have it set to +10 or something like that. The SW trim should be a negative number. Bump the sweep level (your mains are in the noise floor) to 90-95dB and use 1/6 octave smoothing on the trace.
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post #204 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Agreed. The subs are +20dB hot. I wouldn't be able to listen to music for 5 seconds with that calibration.

Turn the subs waaaaay down, preferably in the AVRs SW trim, if you have it set to +10 or something like that. The SW trim should be a negative number. Bump the sweep level (your mains are in the noise floor) to 90-95dB and use 1/6 octave smoothing on the trace.

Subwoofer is at --0 on the AVR.

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post #205 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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done for the night............. wife is here. ............. start tomorrow.

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post #206 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 07:16 PM
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Turn the gain knobs on the subs amp section to 9 o'clock if they were at 3 o'clock. Then run a sweep. Tomorrow of course. You can solve this you just need to start in the right place.
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post #207 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Turn the gain knobs on the subs amp section to 9 o'clock if they were at 3 o'clock. Then run a sweep. Tomorrow of course. You can solve this you just need to start in the right place.

PSA subs will have very little output at 9:00 on the amp...PSA recomends between 1-3:00 on the amp gain. I say pull it back to 1:00 and set the avr trim back to -5.
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post #208 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 07:24 PM
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It really won't matter if the sweeps are the same. He needs to lower the output anyways as he is very hot. He needs to figure out his hollow sounding problem and make sure it is user error and not sub problem. I am guessing user error. He can turn the trim down only so much so he needs to back the trim on the sub themselves. Did Tom say what the gain differences are at different settings? What is the wattage of the amps?
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post #209 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 07:34 PM
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It really won't matter if the sweeps are the same. He needs to lower the output anyways as he is very hot. He needs to figure out his hollow sounding problem and make sure it is user error and not sub problem. I am guessing user error. He can turn the trim down only so much so he needs to back the trim on the sub themselves. Did Tom say what the gain differences are at different settings? What is the wattage of the amps?

The amp is 750watts. If I am not mistaken setting the sub amp @ 12-12:30 will achieve a 75db calibration. so I believe the amp raises the level 5-6db each incriment above the 12:00 position. I run my amps at 2:00 and pull 3-5db out of the avr, which leaves my subs running 7-9db hot. I agree 20db hot is way to much even for this basshead. smile.gif
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post #210 of 600 Old 08-15-2013, 08:54 PM
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Well being hot is one thing but not liking the sound without proper initial setup is another. I am not sure how 12 could be 75 dBs when that is determined by trim level and distances from the LP, etc. if I measured the sub at 1 meter at the same level it would be at least 85 dBs not 75 dBs. Anyways, I still run I he should back of the gain to a maximum of 12 on both subs. He should also run speakers only sweeps on full range to see where their -3 dBs point is. If they sound good on the same material where it was bad before and the graphs are the same then it could be a sub problem. Or it is lower in frequency and still a setup problem. That 30hz peak is a problem but that is easily tamed with one filter.
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