Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jenkzy56 View Post

Well, I think that about sums it up folks.
Lets do this again real soon, ok.

priceless !!!

It’s been quite the thread all-right. wink.gif

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Old 07-19-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jenkzy56 View Post

Well, I think that about sums it up folks.
Lets do this again real soon, ok.

priceless !!!

Lets end this thread with some words of wisdom that are directed at Noone but Everyone should remember

Arguing on the internet is like entering the Special Olympics No matter who wins Your still Retarded.smile.gifbiggrin.gif:D

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Old 07-19-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You are not understanding the basic concepts here. The sub2 was tested by ricci outdoors at 2 meters groundplane, it is on his site. The KK sub(I used to love M&K BTW) was tested where, inside? You do realize that if you put the sub2 in a corner it will get the same gain as the KK. There is a reason we all want the subs to be tested by the same person in the same location. A sub that gets 90 dBs at 15hz in a corner is not very good. The sub2 gets 102 dBs outside at 16hz. When you put that in a corner it adds around 6 dBs to it so now it will get 108 dBs with lower THD(that is what rooms do). Now it takes 6 dBs per doubling of subs(not every sub) so to reach 108 dBs the KK needs 8 of them. 96 for two, 102 for 4, 108 for 8, get it?

I think you still don't get it! maybe you should hold off till Ricci test a KK, maybe then a better consensus can be performed. I do see you only care about output and its pointless to have an discussion about bass and the hallmarks of what would be considered benchmark performance. I'll let those who continue to test the KK write up their findings and you can read em and silently let off a Hmm! in your own head wink.gif
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:48 AM
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I expect all these to have great sounding bass! Your sub was tested to produce 90 dBs at 15 hz indoors. This means it will be lower outside unless that room was a huge warehouse. Output matters when the sound is the same or very similar.

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Speakers- 7 Behringer B215XL's, 4 212xl's for ceiling speakers.
Front subs 12 SI 18ht ported SLLT powered by Inuke 6000
Rear subs 2 XXX ported SLLT powered by IPR2-7500.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I expect all these to have great sounding bass! Your sub was tested to produce 90 dBs at 15 hz indoors. This means it will be lower outside unless that room was a huge warehouse. Output matters when the sound is the same or very similar.

Hey Man it is what it is, just keep an eye out for the reviews, as a search will yield some interesting findings on other test performed even by some DIY like yourself , Its a fantastic sounding sub and has really proven something special on movies and music . Here's a link across the pond where i've found some end users and industry professionals' and even the Big Dog himself Ken chimes from time to time.

enjoy!


Here's a good place to start

http://www.avforums.com/forums/subwoofers/1785301-ken-kreisel-professional-sound-subwoofers-part-4-a-7.html
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I think you still don't get it! maybe you should hold off till Ricci test a KK, maybe then a better consensus can be performed. I do see you only care about output and its pointless to have an discussion about bass and the hallmarks of what would be considered benchmark performance. I'll let those who continue to test the KK write up their findings and you can read em and silently let off a Hmm! in your own head wink.gif

No, I think you still don't get it. Yes, the KK is a nice sub. Whatever benefits it gets from corner loading will apply to other subwoofers. Yes, you get +6dB when you double up - not +6dB for each sub. And that applies to other subwoofers as well.

I would love to see that subwoofer tested as well.

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Old 07-19-2013, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Speaking of "Benchmark", most of us DIYers usually say something simplistic like "DIY Rules" or similar when "best", "Benchmark", etc., words are used. Given that it's always just a simple statement of fact and most people fail to use the objective data, one-to-one across the board, I thought it might be interesting to do just that with no words at all, thanks to Josh Ricci:

I took the CEA 2010 Max Burst data from Josh's site of a single UXL-18 driver in a simple sealed non-specific enclosure powered by a real amplifier and with zero EQ, limiters or other 'protection' or manipulation devices that are found on EVERY commercial offering, including the SM. I then scaled and overlaid the same data for the top commercial subs Josh has tested and created an animation to show the dominance of a DIY sub in its simplest form.

The highest output ported commercial subs could only equal the sealed DIY sub at their respective tune and drop off immediately thereunder, bursting the ported-at-tune myth.

The commercial subs are numbered in the animation and are as follows:

1. Chase VS-18
2. Rythmik FV15HP
3. PSA XV15
4. Paradigm Sub 2
5. Outlaw LFM-1 EX
6. Funk 18.0
7. Epik Empire
8. ED A7S-450
9. Velo DD18

http://picasion.com/i/1VwNV/

I just found this to be a fun exercise with results us DIYers have always known, the more zealous of us tending to rub it in on the commercial forum, and thought I'd pass it along for your entertainment.

Best post in this thread.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. No need for 10 pages about commercial subs being a benchmark.

Make the benchmark simple; a single quality driver in a no-nonsense sealed enclosure with real power and no compromises and look at what we can do.

We can compare commercial subs to this benchmark and see what those compromises leave us with (plate amps, enclosure size/shape, EQ, limiters, other protection/manipulation, etc...).

The UXL-18 is one great example as it doesn't leave much on the table to the LMS-5400 but it's a much more realistic value proposition for most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Point me to how to put the sub that generated the reference line in your graph together. please.

Purchase one (or more) of these flat pack kits (wait for the SI 18" driver cut out option to come back in stock): http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/4-sub-flat-pack.html - $145 shipped

Driver is here: http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_uxl_18.html - $530 shipped

Depending on what you're after (how many of these, etc.), if you are serious, start a thread in the DIY subforum and they can help you with amp options.

For sake of answering the question fully, grab an EP4000 and feed it 2000w (bridged 4ohm) for $300. Should be a perfect fit for that enclosure.

Balanced MiniDSP for $145: http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-balanced-2x4

This gives you the ability to apply a LT for low end boost while giving you great PEQ abilities as well, even use REW to measure and auto-suggest filters for correction.

Get some glue, clamps and paint. Put the puzzle together like MK says. Bam, reference sub.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

No, I think you still don't get it. Yes, the KK is a nice sub. Whatever benefits it gets from corner loading will apply to other subwoofers. Yes, you get +6dB when you double up - not +6dB for each sub. And that applies to other subwoofers as well.

I would love to see that subwoofer tested as well.

Not all subs work well in corners, the KK's are designed to work there and still measure well there i.e distortion, big word I know, but extremely important! And yes 6db for each sub added surprising I know biggrin.gif

get It wink.gif
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:19 PM
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Oh, dear.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:48 PM
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My daddy is stronger than your daddy! So there!
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Not all subs work well in corners, the KK's are designed to work there and still measure well there i.e distortion, big word I know, but extremely important! And yes 6db for each sub added surprising I know biggrin.gif

get It wink.gif

Read MKs post #279 again. These are basic principles that apply to your sub as well. You flat out will not get 6db per sub (except going from single to dual assuming they are co-located since this is a doubling of subs) as it takes a doubling of subs to achieve that and as MK says you would need EIGHT KK subs in that particular scenario.

Also, just like any sub/room/listening position scenario, experimentation is key to find the best spot and corner loading is certainly NOT going to be the best overall spot in every room with the KK or any other sub. Lots of variables and again experimentation is key.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:52 PM
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Found CEA-2010 measurements and adjusted to 2M for comparison. Nothing to see here, just one measly $799 Epik Empire (also dual sealed compact sub, though now extinct) bested the low end of this $3000 KKK thing while matching the top end. What a joke. rolleyes.gif

Kreisel Sound DXD-12012:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 103.2 dB
20 Hz 98.7 dB
25 Hz 104.3 dB
31.5 Hz 106.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.5 dB
40 Hz 115.2 dB
50 Hz 117.1 dB
63 Hz 117.2 dB

--

Epik Empire:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 105.9 dB
20 Hz 102.2 dB
25 Hz 105.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.3 dB
40 Hz 113.2 dB
50 Hz 116.4 dB
63 Hz 119.2 dB

Sources: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer?page=0,1, http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

--

For an example of a similar design (dual sealed, compact) but actually being made from a reputable company, the PSA XS30 would handle the KKK thing with ease, and a pair for $2200 delivered would demolish it while putting money in your pocket:

PSA XS30 CEA-2010 Ratings (dual XS30s)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 107.6dB (113.6dB)
Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.2dB (128.2dB)

On a smaller budget, even the XS15 for $749 delivered matches the Kreisel!

PSA XS15 CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 104.1dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 115.2dB

Just for the heck of it, here's their new sub (3x15" sealed) 27.5” x 31” x 23.5” for right around the Kreisel at $2799 delivered:

PSA Triax CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 127.1dB


Not even in the same league. You need four KKKs to get close. Game over. Go back to the 90's, Kreisel.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Found CEA-2010 measurements and adjusted to 2M for comparison. Nothing to see here, just one measly $799 Epik Empire (also dual sealed compact sub, though now extinct) bested the low end of this $3000 KKK thing while matching the top end. What a joke. rolleyes.gif

Kreisel Sound DXD-12012:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 103.2 dB
20 Hz 98.7 dB
25 Hz 104.3 dB
31.5 Hz 106.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.5 dB
40 Hz 115.2 dB
50 Hz 117.1 dB
63 Hz 117.2 dB

--

Epik Empire:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 105.9 dB
20 Hz 102.2 dB
25 Hz 105.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.3 dB
40 Hz 113.2 dB
50 Hz 116.4 dB
63 Hz 119.2 dB

Sources: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer?page=0,1, http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

--

For an example of a similar design (dual sealed, compact) but actually being made from a reputable company, the PSA XS30 would handle the KKK thing with ease, and a pair for $2200 delivered would demolish it while putting money in your pocket:

PSA XS30 CEA-2010 Ratings (dual XS30s)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 107.6dB (113.6dB)
Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.2dB (128.2dB)

On a smaller budget, even the XS15 for $749 delivered matches the Kreisel!

PSA XS15 CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 104.1dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 115.2dB

Just for the heck of it, here's their new sub (3x15" sealed) 27.5” x 31” x 23.5” for right around the Kreisel at $2799 delivered:

PSA Triax CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 127.1dB


Not even in the same league. You need four KKKs to get close. Game over. Go back to the 90's, Kreisel.

For me its not so much the output that bothers me its the price. But for a lot of us pretty much any retail sub will have that problem.

I would be interested though if KK started doing speakers. I've always wanted to hear one his designs.

ShaunH
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Read MKs post #279 again. These are basic principles that apply to your sub as well. You flat out will not get 6db per sub (except going from single to dual assuming they are co-located since this is a doubling of subs) as it takes a doubling of subs to achieve that and as MK says you would need EIGHT KK subs in that particular scenario.

Also, just like any sub/room/listening position scenario, experimentation is key to find the best spot and corner loading is certainly NOT going to be the best overall spot in every room with the KK or any other sub. Lots of variables and again experimentation is key.

It's designed to be collocated in a corner, stacked as a subwoofer system , and yes in the corner for the KK's,agreed not all subs will sound best in the corner but point is this one will, do your do diligence and research the sub and until you hear it for yourself, I'm wasting my time wink.gif
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Found CEA-2010 measurements and adjusted to 2M for comparison. Nothing to see here, just one measly $799 Epik Empire (also dual sealed compact sub, though now extinct) bested the low end of this $3000 KKK thing while matching the top end. What a joke. rolleyes.gif

Kreisel Sound DXD-12012:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 103.2 dB
20 Hz 98.7 dB
25 Hz 104.3 dB
31.5 Hz 106.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.5 dB
40 Hz 115.2 dB
50 Hz 117.1 dB
63 Hz 117.2 dB

--

Epik Empire:

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) average: 105.9 dB
20 Hz 102.2 dB
25 Hz 105.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.7 dB L

Low bass (40-63 Hz) average: 116.3 dB
40 Hz 113.2 dB
50 Hz 116.4 dB
63 Hz 119.2 dB

Sources: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer?page=0,1, http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

--

For an example of a similar design (dual sealed, compact) but actually being made from a reputable company, the PSA XS30 would handle the KKK thing with ease, and a pair for $2200 delivered would demolish it while putting money in your pocket:

PSA XS30 CEA-2010 Ratings (dual XS30s)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 107.6dB (113.6dB)
Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.2dB (128.2dB)

On a smaller budget, even the XS15 for $749 delivered matches the Kreisel!

PSA XS15 CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 104.1dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 115.2dB

Just for the heck of it, here's their new sub (3x15" sealed) 27.5” x 31” x 23.5” for right around the Kreisel at $2799 delivered:

PSA Triax CEA-2010 Ratings

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 127.1dB


Not even in the same league. You need four KKKs to get close. Game over. Go back to the 90's, Kreisel.

Ahh! I get now rolleyes.gif you got something personal against Ken, the mans work speaks for itself and I'm sure glad he's back building subs!

nice chatting smile.gif
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

For me its not so much the output that bothers me its the price. But for a lot of us pretty much any retail sub will have that problem.

I would be interested though if KK started doing speakers. I've always wanted to hear one his designs.

He's building speakers again as well. and if not mistaken they've began shipping.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

It's designed to be collocated in a corner, stacked as a subwoofer system , and yes in the corner for the KK's,agreed not all subs will sound best in the corner but point is this one will, do your do diligence and research the sub and until you hear it for yourself, I'm wasting my time wink.gif

It depends on the room though Audiofan and every room is different. Just because it is designed to work best in a corner does not mean a corner will be the best spot since you simply don't know until you experiment and do a FR check at the LP in YOUR room.

Also, co-locating will still require doubling of the subs for every 6db of gain.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

Interesting post bosso and it does highlight DIY as the best bang for the buck.

Just one thing: I think the gif needs to be stretched out a little bit... it's just too fast frown.gif

Here ya go, and this time I added the PB-13 Ultra.

DIY UXL-18 in 4 cubes powered by Powersoft K10 (or equal):

1. Chase VS-18
2. Rythmik FV15HP
3. PSA XV15
4. Paradigm Sub 2
5. Outlaw LFM-1 EX
6. Funk 18.0
7. Epik Empire
8. ED A7S-450
9. Velo DD18
10. SVS PB-13 Ultra (20 Hz tune)

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Old 07-19-2013, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ahh! I get now rolleyes.gif you got something personal against Ken, the mans work speaks for itself and I'm sure glad he's back building subs!

nice chatting smile.gif

oneeyeblind!

I noticed you posted the second part only with just the measurements, but left out the the most important . The first part I guess words like best I've heard it mean nothing to this bunch , so for those interested this my last post on this matter read em and weep tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

It depends on the room though Audiofan and every room is different. Just because it is designed to work best in a corner does not mean a corner will be the best spot since you simply don't know until you experiment and do a FR check at the LP in YOUR room.

Also, co-locating will still require doubling of the subs for every 6db of gain.


That's kind of assumed if you under stand is designed to be stacked.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ahh! I get now rolleyes.gif you got something personal against Ken, the mans work speaks for itself and I'm sure glad he's back building subs!

nice chatting smile.gif

Nope, don't know anything about Ken except that he makes an overpriced subwoofer that's easily matched by budget units $1K and under.

Numbers don't lie. You know this, and it's why you didn't respond to the numbers instead going after the messenger. Too easy. wink.gif
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

[/B]

That's kind of assumed if you under stand is designed to be stacked.

It doesn't matter stacked or not.

The point is you must double the displacement and power to get 6db of gain.

So 1 to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 8 and so on get 6db and that is even unlikely as at some point you would want to spread them out. further the issue ingratiating more than 2 subs begins to become more difficult acoustically . As I said you won't likely get as much gain as at some point as for one most of us wouldn't buy four subs and place them in the same place and two at some the acoustics come into play.


I recommend reading this. Its talking about having four subs (not stacked) in a room and it shows that a static gain is unlikely.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80

ShaunH
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

[/B]

That's kind of assumed if you under stand is designed to be stacked.

Apparently not since you keep insisting that EACH sub will add 6db which is flat out not the case.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:09 PM
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And people will always buy overpriced stuff. Because they spent 4x more than needed their mind will think its better. Like spending 1k on a speaker cable or HDMI cable
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

It doesn't matter stacked or not.

The point is you must double the displacement and power to get 6db of gain.

So 1 to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 8 and so on get 6db and that is even unlikely as at some point you would want to spread them out. further the issue ingratiating more than 2 subs begans to become more difficult acoustically . As I said you won't likely get as much gain

And even then, it's no guarantee:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80
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It is often times stated that the maximum gain that can be seen from adding an identical subwoofer producing the same output level is 6dB and that the full 6dB will only be realized if they are within 1/4 wavelength of each other or in other words, co-located or placed very close to each other. This is not correct in practice, in a confined environment, or basically anywhere other than very large anechoic chambers, outdoors, and huge spaces. There are a variety of factors that can cause a different interaction at the listening position such as the room acoustics, the distance from the individual subwoofers to the listening position, and the placement of each subwoofer in room.
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Obviously, you cannot simply assume a static gain of any amount over a substantial frequency range when the system is emitting from multiple points within a room or other confined space. Put simply, gain is not assured at all at any specific frequency. Nor is the maximum gain by doubling the system capped at 6dB at any one frequency due to the complex interaction of all of the forces in play once you confine the system inside an enclosed vessel.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Nope, don't know anything about Ken except that he makes an overpriced subwoofer that's easily matched by budget units $1K and under.

Numbers don't lie. You know this, and it's why you didn't respond to the numbers instead going after the messenger. Too easy. wink.gif

Not so fast! read the review and respond biggrin.gif , my claims are what they are and I posted on distortion and what one can hear and if more output is needed for what can be considered some of the flat out cleanest distortion less bass measured add more subs, that's the difference between it and the rest and sorry your funds or your principles won't allow you to obtain it. The bass is good clean low and impactful and as an Audiophile it meets my high standard of Fidelity, I did the whole output thing at crank it ups when I was younger biggrin.gif now I just want the best bass and key word being best and had no problem paying for it , money well spent in my book cool.gif
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:19 PM
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Apparently not since you keep insisting that EACH sub will add 6db which is flat out not the case.

Ask Ken! wink.gif I'll take his word as the proof will always be in the pudding!
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ask Ken! wink.gif I'll take his word as the proof will always be in the pudding!

Ok then..... did you not look at the link I provided?
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

And people will always buy overpriced stuff. Because they spent 4x more than needed their mind will think its better. Like spending 1k on a speaker cable or HDMI cable

I'm a man of modest means and not fooled so easy into parting with my money either your product delivers or it doesn't simple as that . You guys should become the" I want the cheapest no matter what thread and refuse to pay a dollar more" as I've noticed as soon as something cost more than your (self) willing to spend you guys go off into the deep end and want to think someone is off there rocker for spending more than you did ! So before things get out of hand I shall digress as I consider many of you guys alright in my book!

And I mean it this time biggrin.gif
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:33 PM
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Honestly I've read most of the reviews that I could find of the DXD-12012 and looked at the specs and I don't see what's so great about this sub.
Someone in the know please enlighten me because I just don't see it, especially when considering what it would cost for two of them.
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