Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Honestly I would look for something from speaker power. a lot of power also made in the usa.

http://www.speakerpower.net/sp1-mono-models.html

http://www.speakerpower.net/rack-mount-models.html

Heck thats what I would want to do. I like having the plate amp right there. But I thought these were not for sale to the public? Only manufacturers?

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post #362 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Heck thats what I would want to do. I like having the plate amp right there. But I thought these were not for sale to the public? Only manufacturers?

Yup their for sale, they also offer rack mount dual channel amps now.

Prices listed here. (their front page has order links and prices)

http://www.speakerpower.net/

You just don't get the DSP with the none OEM version.

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post #363 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Hey guys, not getting a lot of action on the subwoofer ownership thread started by popalock (I'm sure everyone has a life but us biggrin.gif). I am flying out to Oahu tonight for a week biggrin.gif. So I thought I would run this idea by y'all to get some opinions. Anyway the past several months I have been doing quite a bit of research on this whole world and hobby of GREAT HT. My first setup, which was bought in January, was a 7.1 setup with Definitive Technology speakers and an HSU sub. I have began selling to go straight to the top with some JTR 212 Noesis speakers and a bigtime subwoofer setup. So there it is. I have been always leaning towards an Orbit Shifter or CapS2 with intentions of adding a second later. But the prices on performance and even potentially better sub setup for less money has me in heat. I don't know how to set it all up, program whatever DSP, etc. But I know I can learn. I have looked at SI 18 DIY build to the most recent of doing an RE XXX 18 DIY build. SQ is of the utmost importance but I also want some serious ability to flex some muscle. The efficiency and good SQ numbers on Horns has had the OS in the number one spot all this time. Not to mention it has a big bicep! eek.gif So what do you guys think about the RE XXX 18. I would start with 2 subs in a configuration like the SubMersive F2/CapS2. It would be bigger for more internal air volume, perhaps 54x24x22? (just a guesstimation).

You'll get the same type of responses here (minimal)...

 

Start your own thread in the DIY section. That's where it belongs and you'll get the most responses there.

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post #364 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

You'll get the same type of responses here (minimal)...

Start your own thread in the DIY section. That's where it belongs and you'll get the most responses there.

Cool, thanks smile.gif

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post #365 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

While I made absolutely no sense of your diatribe

Lets just say that he's a man who likes talking to a man who likes to talk. wink.gif


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post #366 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I pretty much try to restrict my comments to technical questions. I don't see anything intrinsic to the 12012 that would make it technically superior to any number of other options, some considerably less expensive.

Hi! Bill Fitzmaurice I'd like to tap your brain , i'm the guy who posted the entry for the DXD12012 as one of the contenders for a benchmark sub to much controversy, the reason for my purchase of the DXD12012 as I had indeed narrowed my list down to the Seaton , SVS SB13 ultra and also Rythmik was one I always liked the integration my previous sub which was an older M&K MX150 mk2 ( which i had for 14 years) gave to underpin my mains and did so with sufficient bass in the room, but didn't play low enough and i had plenty of musical content and movies with ULF. So my thinking was I don't have to give up what M&K subs did well up high and the extension down 10hz would fill in the lows plus the dual mono blocks for each driver seemed appealing, I wasn't looking for max spl as my top priority as the others may have fit that bill better but I knew should I want more I could just add another , this all seemed a safe bet.

Now let me get down to my question to you because I've read your post where you've mentioned the benefits of certain designs in particular downfiring subs, IMHO what makes the DXD something special is the way bass is delivered into the room especially the MLP and what Ken has mentioned as the nearfield, the bottom of the sub has slots all around it save the front, unlike the M&K's of old with only one and a forward firing driver. It seems the sub has the benefited from multiple designs sealed, downfiring and facing the driver into the wall and corner loading and while adding the second sub will give what Ken considers the real something special the 3D pulsar effect in the near field to which I know movies for home are mixed. What I've found from other end users of this sub is the sound of fast transitions from high to low bass in what seems an instant and the sound of that transition is not confined to floor or corner but all around you at the listening position and i'll admit I've never heard anything like it. its both felt and heard.

I'm by no means a novice when it comes to bass, I've been the DIY camp, I've had budget subs, good subs and poor subs, my original intent for posting this is for those who love bass of course know that there is something possibly different on the market, and should try to hear the new subs from Ken.

Any insight !
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post #367 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Hi! Bill Fitzmaurice I'd like to tap your brain...Now let me get down to my question to you because I've read your post where you've mentioned the benefits of certain designs in particular downfiring subs, IMHO what makes the DXD something special is the way bass is delivered into the room especially the MLP and what Ken has mentioned as the nearfield, the bottom of the sub has slots all around it save the front, unlike the M&K's of old with only one and a forward firing driver. It seems the sub has the benefited from multiple designs sealed, downfiring and facing the driver into the wall and corner loading and while adding the second sub will give what Ken considers the real something special the 3D pulsar effect in the near field to which I know movies for home are mixed.
Without seeing a lot more details than what's on their site, which is next to nothing, that only says that they did a bunch of things to realize an omni-directional output pattern. Here's the deal: All subs have an omni-directional output pattern. 3D pulsar effect in the near field? That's marketing speak, not an engineering term. As for sub stacking, you'll get a better result spreading them about the room. Stacking subs gets higher output, but does nothing to address room modes. Vertically stacking cabs does have a major benefit when the stack is at least 3 wavelengths high. At 100Hz that's 33 feet; at 20Hz it's 170 feet. eek.gif

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post #368 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I think part of the issue is everyone has gone gaga over 18's and there really isn't as much focus on 15's. At one time TC sounds had a LMS driver or at least a prototype in the 15 inch size but not anymore. All the top drivers seem to be only in the 18 inch sizes.

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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

And I can see why. Significantly more cone area with very little increase in mounting depth or air space.

Although I agree with the 'gaga' statement, the cone area/air space deal is simply not so.

Take the SI-HT18 lots of folks swam to. SI also have a 15" version. You can put 2 of the 15" in approx the same/slightly larger air space required by a single 18"er and get:

1. The benefits of a dual-opposed config
2. 36% more displacement
3. Double the power handling
4. Higher sensitivity/less amp requirement
5. Going dual-opposed with 18s is an unacceptably large box (for me and most folks)
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post #369 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Although I agree with the 'gaga' statement, the cone area/air space deal is simply not so.

Take the SI-HT18 lots of folks swam to. SI also have a 15" version. You can put 2 of the 15" in approx the same/slightly larger air space required by a single 18"er and get:

1. The benefits of a dual-opposed config
2. 36% more displacement
3. Double the power handling
4. Higher sensitivity/less amp requirement
5. Going dual-opposed with 18s is an unacceptably large box (for me and most folks)

Bosso, I'm going to say that if most people have room for a dual 15 setup, they certainly have room for a dual 18'. SI's don't require a lot of power so you could put them in a smaller cab and add more power to them and effectively end up at the same point at the end of the day. You could make a similar comparison to a dual 12 vs single 15 (we know displacement % will be different). Keep in mind the cost will be less for the single vs dual comparison.

As we say in the drag racing world; there is no replacement for displacement. wink.gif

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post #370 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 02:47 PM
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Measurements, measurements, measurements......it's always about measurements!

I've owned both the PC-13 Ultra and a SubM. Without measurements, other than real world experience, I love both subs, but........I would pick the SubM over the SvS. Hands down! The smile factor and just the way the SubM sounds and feels did it for me.

Measurements, like anything, can be misleading. This is what common sense has instilled into me. Now a test:

Both examples, in the bellow images, have the exact same measurements, but which one do you think is better?

I'd be up for some real world testing and would love to report my findings! biggrin.gif

























#1



#2

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

Haha....I couldn't resist. tongue.gif
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post #371 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 03:13 PM
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Both examples, in the bellow images, have the exact same measurements, but which one do you think is better?

Neither!.. I love my wife to much.



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post #372 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Measurements, measurements, measurements......it's always about measurements!

I've owned both the PC-13 Ultra and a SubM. Without measurements, other than real world experience, I love both subs, but........I would pick the SubM over the SvS. Hands down! The smile factor and just the way the SubM sounds and feels did it for me.

Measurements, like anything, can be misleading. This is what common sense has instilled into me. Now a test:

Both examples, in the bellow images, have the exact same measurements, but which one do you think is better?

I'd be up for some real world testing and would love to report my findings! biggrin.gif

























#1



#2

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 100

Haha....I couldn't resist. tongue.gif

Like you said, measurements CAN be misleading. But so can subjective evaluations. And that is precisely why so many rely on Josh's measurements when comparing subs---it's the only objective tools available!!. Can't speak for others, but I would never buy a sub strictly on measurements alone. However, I would like the opportunity to consider both objective and subjective information when making a selection. So yes, measurements do have their rightful place (when used appropriately) and as popular as the Subm is, it deserves to be tested just like the popular subs have been. All things considered, the reasons indicated in this thread for not wanting/having the Subms tested is still lame (IMO).

PS: I don't care how well picture #1 measures or how well anyone says she "performs," I am picking #2.
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post #373 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 05:01 PM
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^^ +1

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Bet #1 is lower maintenance and long term, easier to get along with.

In the end, it's all about what you can afford and my budget will not get me what's behind door number two.
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post #375 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Without seeing a lot more details than what's on their site, which is next to nothing, that only says that they did a bunch of things to realize an omni-directional output pattern. Here's the deal: All subs have an omni-directional output pattern. 3D pulsar effect in the near field? That's marketing speak, not an engineering term. As for sub stacking, you'll get a better result spreading them about the room. Stacking subs gets higher output, but does nothing to address room modes. Vertically stacking cabs does have a major benefit when the stack is at least 3 wavelengths high. At 100Hz that's 33 feet; at 20Hz it's 170 feet. eek.gif


Thanks smile.gif
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post #376 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

Just one thing: I think the gif needs to be stretched out a little bit... it's just too fast frown.gif

I read "gif" as gf, as in girlfriend, to which I thought "oh boy this is really going off topic..." Lol
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post #377 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 09:45 PM
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Like I said, I'd pick the one that made me smile more, felt better and had that overall... how it made me feel cool.gif, regardless of what their measurements are. Sure one looks better in a room and would be nice to show off but I would definitely pick the one with the WoW factor......looks aren't everything. And yes I'm talking about the subs........maybe tongue.gif Daryl Hannah may be no Sydney Moon but if Daryl is anything like a SubM......so long Sydney!

One last look at Sydney before I get back to Daryl..........



Maybe I could just go with multiples???? how hard do you think it would be to implement the two? eek.gif

Now the debate is back on.....Sealed vs. Ported?? wink.gif

OK, now I'm done.
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post #378 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Vertically stacking cabs does have a major benefit when the stack is at least 3 wavelengths high. At 100Hz that's 33 feet; at 20Hz it's 170 feet. eek.gif

What's the benefit of stacking 3+ wavelengths high?
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post #379 of 456 Old 07-20-2013, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Thanks smile.gif

Are you saying thanks because he pointed out there's really nothing special or magical about the DXD12012 subs?

It really does look like a nice but I think it's priced at about $1000-$1200 higher then it should be just because of who it's made by.
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post #380 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 12:13 AM
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One last look at Sydney before I get back to Daryl..........
Hey thanks man smile.gif
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Are you saying thanks because he pointed out there's really nothing special or magical about the DXD12012 subs?

It really does look like a nice but I think it's priced at about $1000-$1200 higher then it should be just because of who it's made by.

I probably shouldn't let you in on this but!.. no he said thanks because Bill F didn’t charge him $75 for his assessment. cool.gif

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post #381 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I probably shouldn't let you in on this but!.. no he said thanks because Bill F didn’t charge him $75 for his assessment. cool.gif

Haha oh Steve, Steve, Steve, you're always good for a laugh!...lol tongue.gif
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post #382 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Are you saying thanks because he pointed out there's really nothing special or magical about the DXD12012 subs?

It really does look like a nice but I think it's priced at about $1000-$1200 higher then it should be just because of who it's made by.

I asked him a question and thanked him for answering it. I'm still looking for an explanation as to why the DXD12012 gets bass to MLP with low high and mid bass intact with out smearing or obscuring the dynamics and fidelity being produced by the rest of the speakers be it 2/ch or movies, I already know it measures well! and has the extension I hoped it would for large scale classical with 16hz organ notes that cause the room to shutter , not to mention it more than delivered on WOTW and some of the other top bass movies. I guess until someone else around here hears one, I'll just have wait to see what those here in the States think of its merits in the confines of the end user, its already gotten respect for what it does and not merely for its namesake. I'm of the mind set to think it indeed has something to do with the design itself as it actually does fire into the sidewall from behind and the opposite side as well, could this be why I'm not a 100% sure but I can tell you I haven't heard anything like it wink.gif
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post #383 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Hey thanks man smile.gif
I probably shouldn't let you in on this but!.. no he said thanks because Bill F didn’t charge him $75 for his assessment. cool.gif

I'm not sure why you feel the need to respond for me, but would appreciate you not speculating and posting as to why I posted something to someone else wink.gif
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I'm not sure why you feel the need to respond for me, but would appreciate you not speculating and posting as to why I posted something to someone else wink.gif

I would ask you to entertain a thought.. Aren’t you maybe being just a little to serious? Anyone reading that post is going to know I was just playing.. certainly not speaking for you, at you, or a (need) to talk for you as you have deemed. rolleyes.gif Anyway that being that, I’ll be sure as not to offend you, not to play in any post that includes your post. wink.gif
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Anyway that being that, I’ll be sure as not to offend you, not to play in any post that includes your post. wink.gif

...tongue.gif:

And that folks, meets the definition of "tongue in cheek."

...tongue.gif
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post #386 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 07:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

And yes I'm talking about the subs........maybe tongue.gif Daryl Hannah may be no Sydney Moon but if Daryl is anything like a SubM......so long Sydney!

Just saying, how many of the guys here can afford a pair of "Sydney Moon's?" Those look like some very expensive subwoofers.

"Dude, I'm up here."

"No you're not."

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post #387 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

What's the benefit of stacking 3+ wavelengths high?
http://www.systemsolutions.co.za/Tech%20Zone/Line%20Array%20White%20Paper.pdf

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post #388 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

As for sub stacking, you'll get a better result spreading them about the room. Stacking subs gets higher output, but does nothing to address room modes. Vertically stacking cabs does have a major benefit when the stack is at least 3 wavelengths high. At 100Hz that's 33 feet; at 20Hz it's 170 feet. eek.gif

Sorry Bill, theorizing is one thing, but this ^^^ is just nonsense. Show your data.

Vertically stacking eliminates the floor-to-ceiling standing wave and incorporates the ceiling as a 4th virtual primary point source.

One sub in a corner vs a stack of the same sub in the same corner. Mic position is unchanged. The traces are normalized to show the difference in FR because the output increase is a given.



You go from (+/-) 21dB to (+/-) 8dB and, with a single PEQ filter you're at (+/-) 3dB. You're welcome to lug the 4 modules all over the room based on a) where your rooms layout will actually allow you to physically place them in the room, b) your latest mathematical guru-inspired theory, c) trial and error or d) a combination of all of the above. But, to state categorically that stacking is not a viable option tells me you have no evidence from the real world.

Having extremely accurate measurement capability, you would then compare the digits on a full bandwidth disc to the mic'd version from the listening position. The following is a scene from HTTYD when the big dragon bursts out of the cave, captured straight off the player and mic'd at the LP.



If it gets better than that ^^^, please post the data.

Getting back to the topic, Arch mentioned GTGs as a metric for benchmark, or subjective preference, or whatever anyone would like to call it. Since there really is next to zero objective data used to explain the preferences at a GTG, I, after following one of those threads, took the FR data posted and created a Spectrograph of one of the scenes listened to at the GTG and made a simple comparison showing what the participants actually heard from the SM vs a Cap sub:



I've posted countless times that ULF does not have to be 145dB (or whatever the Equal Loudness Curve graph and similar opinions theoretically dictate it 'needs' to be) to be heard, felt, sensed, etc. When there is a +20dB difference from one presentation to the next and a +4dB difference at the center frequency, every listener will notice the difference and the majority will judge it to be 'better'.

If there were digital vs mic'd version spectrographs of the scenes presented at a GTG (the digital versions could be done in advance and the mic'd versions done at the GTG), one would be able to see the distortions presented to the listeners.

Playing "What if?", what if the SM gives 100% THD at 8 Hz and it's mostly 2HD? That 16 Hz 2HD would add impact at a frequency where the other subs have no output at all and at a frequency where there is no content in the soundtrack. There are many more variables that decrease the value of the subjective opinions of listeners when there is no data to help explain those preferences and opinions.

So, hats off to Seaton for designing his sub to use the room (and that would be any room the sub is placed in) to allow owners to experience another octave. I've said so many, many, many times since the SM hit the streets. But, the 'benchmark' is a combination of hard numbers data resulting from a rigorous regimen executed by an extremely capable young man. You simply can't dismiss that data because some guys liked the sub better than a couple of other subs, excluding the current benchmark subs.

IOW, the SM either gets included in Josh's Data-Bass, or no benchmark for it. Once it's been tested and the results are included, then you can see if there is a correlation between "everyone liked it best at the GTG, so it must be a benchmark" and the actual numbers. It's my opinion that there will be, but my opinion is just that. Folks who place their opinions above the data... well, good luck with that.
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post #389 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 10:36 AM
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How far apart were drivers of the subs in your stack? I think that is the main point. If the subs are small, as so many subs are, then not much distance is placed between the points of acoustic emission, and they are effectively in the same place and would be subject to the same room modes.
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post #390 of 456 Old 07-21-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Vertically stacking eliminates the floor-to-ceiling standing wave and incorporates the ceiling as a 4th virtual primary point source.
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Vertical stacking will reduce the distance from the radiating plane to the ceiling, raising the frequency of the Allison Effect notch from the reflected wave. Of all the room modes it is the least significant, so one should only address that issue after the more significant modes have been fixed. If you've got four or more subs properly placed and ceiling bounce remains an issue by all means stack more subs to fix it, but since ceiling bounce is also flattened by multiple subs placed around the room it's very seldom called for.
BTW, don't reply, blocked you are. I've had enough of your personal attacks and juvenile attitude displays in lieu of reasonable discourse.
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