Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 07-20-2013, 06:36 PM
 
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Bet #1 is lower maintenance and long term, easier to get along with.

In the end, it's all about what you can afford and my budget will not get me what's behind door number two.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Without seeing a lot more details than what's on their site, which is next to nothing, that only says that they did a bunch of things to realize an omni-directional output pattern. Here's the deal: All subs have an omni-directional output pattern. 3D pulsar effect in the near field? That's marketing speak, not an engineering term. As for sub stacking, you'll get a better result spreading them about the room. Stacking subs gets higher output, but does nothing to address room modes. Vertically stacking cabs does have a major benefit when the stack is at least 3 wavelengths high. At 100Hz that's 33 feet; at 20Hz it's 170 feet. eek.gif


Thanks smile.gif
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

Just one thing: I think the gif needs to be stretched out a little bit... it's just too fast frown.gif

I read "gif" as gf, as in girlfriend, to which I thought "oh boy this is really going off topic..." Lol
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:45 PM
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Like I said, I'd pick the one that made me smile more, felt better and had that overall... how it made me feel cool.gif, regardless of what their measurements are. Sure one looks better in a room and would be nice to show off but I would definitely pick the one with the WoW factor......looks aren't everything. And yes I'm talking about the subs........maybe tongue.gif Daryl Hannah may be no Sydney Moon but if Daryl is anything like a SubM......so long Sydney!

One last look at Sydney before I get back to Daryl..........



Maybe I could just go with multiples???? how hard do you think it would be to implement the two? eek.gif

Now the debate is back on.....Sealed vs. Ported?? wink.gif

OK, now I'm done.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Vertically stacking cabs does have a major benefit when the stack is at least 3 wavelengths high. At 100Hz that's 33 feet; at 20Hz it's 170 feet. eek.gif

What's the benefit of stacking 3+ wavelengths high?
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Thanks smile.gif

Are you saying thanks because he pointed out there's really nothing special or magical about the DXD12012 subs?

It really does look like a nice but I think it's priced at about $1000-$1200 higher then it should be just because of who it's made by.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:13 AM
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One last look at Sydney before I get back to Daryl..........
Hey thanks man smile.gif
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Are you saying thanks because he pointed out there's really nothing special or magical about the DXD12012 subs?

It really does look like a nice but I think it's priced at about $1000-$1200 higher then it should be just because of who it's made by.

I probably shouldn't let you in on this but!.. no he said thanks because Bill F didn’t charge him $75 for his assessment. cool.gif

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Old 07-21-2013, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I probably shouldn't let you in on this but!.. no he said thanks because Bill F didn’t charge him $75 for his assessment. cool.gif

Haha oh Steve, Steve, Steve, you're always good for a laugh!...lol tongue.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Are you saying thanks because he pointed out there's really nothing special or magical about the DXD12012 subs?

It really does look like a nice but I think it's priced at about $1000-$1200 higher then it should be just because of who it's made by.

I asked him a question and thanked him for answering it. I'm still looking for an explanation as to why the DXD12012 gets bass to MLP with low high and mid bass intact with out smearing or obscuring the dynamics and fidelity being produced by the rest of the speakers be it 2/ch or movies, I already know it measures well! and has the extension I hoped it would for large scale classical with 16hz organ notes that cause the room to shutter , not to mention it more than delivered on WOTW and some of the other top bass movies. I guess until someone else around here hears one, I'll just have wait to see what those here in the States think of its merits in the confines of the end user, its already gotten respect for what it does and not merely for its namesake. I'm of the mind set to think it indeed has something to do with the design itself as it actually does fire into the sidewall from behind and the opposite side as well, could this be why I'm not a 100% sure but I can tell you I haven't heard anything like it wink.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Hey thanks man smile.gif
I probably shouldn't let you in on this but!.. no he said thanks because Bill F didn’t charge him $75 for his assessment. cool.gif

I'm not sure why you feel the need to respond for me, but would appreciate you not speculating and posting as to why I posted something to someone else wink.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I'm not sure why you feel the need to respond for me, but would appreciate you not speculating and posting as to why I posted something to someone else wink.gif

I would ask you to entertain a thought.. Aren’t you maybe being just a little to serious? Anyone reading that post is going to know I was just playing.. certainly not speaking for you, at you, or a (need) to talk for you as you have deemed. rolleyes.gif Anyway that being that, I’ll be sure as not to offend you, not to play in any post that includes your post. wink.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Anyway that being that, I’ll be sure as not to offend you, not to play in any post that includes your post. wink.gif

...tongue.gif:

And that folks, meets the definition of "tongue in cheek."

...tongue.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

And yes I'm talking about the subs........maybe tongue.gif Daryl Hannah may be no Sydney Moon but if Daryl is anything like a SubM......so long Sydney!

Just saying, how many of the guys here can afford a pair of "Sydney Moon's?" Those look like some very expensive subwoofers.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

What's the benefit of stacking 3+ wavelengths high?
http://www.systemsolutions.co.za/Tech%20Zone/Line%20Array%20White%20Paper.pdf

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

As for sub stacking, you'll get a better result spreading them about the room. Stacking subs gets higher output, but does nothing to address room modes. Vertically stacking cabs does have a major benefit when the stack is at least 3 wavelengths high. At 100Hz that's 33 feet; at 20Hz it's 170 feet. eek.gif

Sorry Bill, theorizing is one thing, but this ^^^ is just nonsense. Show your data.

Vertically stacking eliminates the floor-to-ceiling standing wave and incorporates the ceiling as a 4th virtual primary point source.

One sub in a corner vs a stack of the same sub in the same corner. Mic position is unchanged. The traces are normalized to show the difference in FR because the output increase is a given.



You go from (+/-) 21dB to (+/-) 8dB and, with a single PEQ filter you're at (+/-) 3dB. You're welcome to lug the 4 modules all over the room based on a) where your rooms layout will actually allow you to physically place them in the room, b) your latest mathematical guru-inspired theory, c) trial and error or d) a combination of all of the above. But, to state categorically that stacking is not a viable option tells me you have no evidence from the real world.

Having extremely accurate measurement capability, you would then compare the digits on a full bandwidth disc to the mic'd version from the listening position. The following is a scene from HTTYD when the big dragon bursts out of the cave, captured straight off the player and mic'd at the LP.



If it gets better than that ^^^, please post the data.

Getting back to the topic, Arch mentioned GTGs as a metric for benchmark, or subjective preference, or whatever anyone would like to call it. Since there really is next to zero objective data used to explain the preferences at a GTG, I, after following one of those threads, took the FR data posted and created a Spectrograph of one of the scenes listened to at the GTG and made a simple comparison showing what the participants actually heard from the SM vs a Cap sub:



I've posted countless times that ULF does not have to be 145dB (or whatever the Equal Loudness Curve graph and similar opinions theoretically dictate it 'needs' to be) to be heard, felt, sensed, etc. When there is a +20dB difference from one presentation to the next and a +4dB difference at the center frequency, every listener will notice the difference and the majority will judge it to be 'better'.

If there were digital vs mic'd version spectrographs of the scenes presented at a GTG (the digital versions could be done in advance and the mic'd versions done at the GTG), one would be able to see the distortions presented to the listeners.

Playing "What if?", what if the SM gives 100% THD at 8 Hz and it's mostly 2HD? That 16 Hz 2HD would add impact at a frequency where the other subs have no output at all and at a frequency where there is no content in the soundtrack. There are many more variables that decrease the value of the subjective opinions of listeners when there is no data to help explain those preferences and opinions.

So, hats off to Seaton for designing his sub to use the room (and that would be any room the sub is placed in) to allow owners to experience another octave. I've said so many, many, many times since the SM hit the streets. But, the 'benchmark' is a combination of hard numbers data resulting from a rigorous regimen executed by an extremely capable young man. You simply can't dismiss that data because some guys liked the sub better than a couple of other subs, excluding the current benchmark subs.

IOW, the SM either gets included in Josh's Data-Bass, or no benchmark for it. Once it's been tested and the results are included, then you can see if there is a correlation between "everyone liked it best at the GTG, so it must be a benchmark" and the actual numbers. It's my opinion that there will be, but my opinion is just that. Folks who place their opinions above the data... well, good luck with that.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:36 AM
 
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How far apart were drivers of the subs in your stack? I think that is the main point. If the subs are small, as so many subs are, then not much distance is placed between the points of acoustic emission, and they are effectively in the same place and would be subject to the same room modes.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Vertically stacking eliminates the floor-to-ceiling standing wave and incorporates the ceiling as a 4th virtual primary point source.
.
Vertical stacking will reduce the distance from the radiating plane to the ceiling, raising the frequency of the Allison Effect notch from the reflected wave. Of all the room modes it is the least significant, so one should only address that issue after the more significant modes have been fixed. If you've got four or more subs properly placed and ceiling bounce remains an issue by all means stack more subs to fix it, but since ceiling bounce is also flattened by multiple subs placed around the room it's very seldom called for.
BTW, don't reply, blocked you are. I've had enough of your personal attacks and juvenile attitude displays in lieu of reasonable discourse.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I would ask you to entertain a thought.. Aren’t you maybe being just a little to serious? Anyone reading that post is going to know I was just playing.. certainly not speaking for you, at you, or a (need) to talk for you as you have deemed. rolleyes.gif Anyway that being that, I’ll be sure as not to offend you, not to play in any post that includes your post. wink.gif

In that case and in the name of fun, I understand your reply and can take a little poking at wink.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

How far apart were drivers of the subs in your stack? I think that is the main point. If the subs are small, as so many subs are, then not much distance is placed between the points of acoustic emission, and they are effectively in the same place and would be subject to the same room modes.

Stacking can be accomplished by many (mostly unexplored) methods. The point I'm addressing is that Fitz, et al, like to pontificate using technical terms no one is familiar while showing zero evidence.

He said:

Quote:
As for sub stacking, you'll get a better result spreading them about the room.


That's simply nonsense.

My exercise clearly shows that statement to be false and is documented with actual and accurate data. And what is his reply? The usual condescending techno-speak with zero data.

Stacking is a viable option, especially for people who simply don't have the floor space to be "spreading them about the room", whatever the heck that means. rolleyes.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:39 PM
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I went back through my 8 sub DIY thread looking for a graph to look at what hapenned when I stacked subs in the front corners from floor to ceiling



.




I think my key a the bottom has a mistake, I think the black line is dual subs, one in each front corner but I could be wrong about it. I do know that the red line is all 8 subs stacked floor to ceiling in each front corner.

All sweeps are with NO EQ.

Notice the graph on the left side the increments are 10db's. What I don't get is when going from 4 subs to 8 subs I'm getting more than 6 db's at almost all freqencies.

I would love to know for sure if that black bottom line is a single sub or dual, but I really think it's duals - one per front corner.



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Old 07-21-2013, 07:13 PM
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Stacking is a viable option, especially for people who simply don't have the floor space to be "spreading them about the room", whatever the heck that means. rolleyes.gif

I think that means placing a single subwoofer in multiple locations like one on each wall front, back and sides, or all four corners or some other combination. Its mostly room dependent though, I get much better results with dual subwoofers spread out ie one between my front left speaker and center and another along the right side wall midway. That seems the best way to help bump those bass nulls up or at least flatten the freq response.

I think its proven quite a lot that multiple subwoofers in multiple locations is the best way to get the flattest freq response.
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Old 07-21-2013, 07:15 PM
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^^^^^^ hmmm, very interesting. would love to know more about this.
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:00 PM
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^^^^^^ hmmm, very interesting. would love to know more about this.
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:11 PM
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Thanks Bill F.biggrin.gif
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:30 PM
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There is a point of diminishing returns though. Two subwoofers get you about 75% and then the final 3rd or 4th gets you the rest of the way. After 3 or 4 there isn't much benefit if any. After that you can start adding more subwoofers and just stack them for increased output.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I think that means placing a single subwoofer in multiple locations like one on each wall front, back and sides, or all four corners or some other combination. Its mostly room dependent though, I get much better results with dual subwoofers spread out ie one between my front left speaker and center and another along the right side wall midway. That seems the best way to help bump those bass nulls up or at least flatten the freq response.

I think its proven quite a lot that multiple subwoofers in multiple locations is the best way to get the flattest freq response.

The Harman paper on multiple sub placement is inevitably posted as the 'proof', but it's only a planar study. Stacking was not investigated. There are plenty of holes in the Harman paper as well. Most of it is a virtual experiment in a virtual room and the space allotted for 16 seats is not even enough for 2 of the seats in my HT.
Quote:
Most of the simulations were made in this 24’ x 20’ x 9’ virtual test room, with a 6’ x 6’ grid of seats spaced 2’ on center.

The FR graphs used in that paper are linear, not logarithmic and the vertical scale is 20dB per division, in which every FR looks fairly flat.

When you properly scale the Harman 'best' FR using multiples and normalize it to a standard REW log graph vs my final response (I use a combination of 2 floor locations and stacking and use no smoothing EQ, only placement, phase and crossover selection), judge for yourself which is better:




Otherwise, it hasn't been proven much at all. Maybe you could cite these quite often proofs?


Again, my point was not that multiple placement is an invalid choice, I'm just countering what was posted regarding stacking. A 33' high stack is not required for 20 Hz (that one should be obvious to even the most casual reader), floor-to-ceiling is not only not the least significant problem, it exists in every room with floor-only placement and in the example I posted of a real room with actual measurements, it was the ONLY significant problem.
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Old 07-22-2013, 07:37 PM
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Interesting thread with lots of side conversations. Are the Seaton subs a good value and high performance - yes. Are they the benchmark - no. In my view cannot be a benchmark - or the standard by which others are compared or measured - without third party test data. Does not reduce the quality or anyother aspect of these superb subs.

It seems that reliable, steady delivery of sub drivers is problematic (PSA just ran out of drivers again). This world of just in time delivery and lean six sigma sucks for the conmsumer and small businesses. I understand why Mark Seaton has concerns about growth of his company. Based on costomer word of mouth and loyalty he has no pressing need to change any of business practices. Growth is not always good or profitable in the long run.

Just my opinion, which is pretty much worthless.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:53 AM
 
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II understand why Mark Seaton has concerns about growth of his company. Based on costomer word of mouth and loyalty he has no pressing need to change any of business practices. Growth is not always good or profitable in the long run.

Please, don't confuse business growth with efforts at putting reliable (industry standard) data out on the streets for everybody to ogle.

If due to demand, a business wants to slow sales down, all they have to do is jack up the price. As we all know, it's called supply and demand but none of these issues prevents anybody from publishing industry accepted practices and none of this is a rational reason why industry standards should not be published for public consumption.

Currently, since we've personally broken the 20Hz barrier, our subwoofer budget has been rerouted into a different hobby; metal detecting. The point, none of what I think matters and that's the way it should be.

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Old 07-23-2013, 07:19 AM
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It seems that reliable, steady delivery of sub drivers is problematic (PSA just ran out of drivers again)..
That's a fact of life that you have to accept. At least 90% of drivers are sourced from Asia, so you can't pick up the phone and have a shipment arrive on the next Fedex truck. Manufacturers have to buy in quantity to get the best price, but they can't buy more to fill their shelves too soon, because they have to pay for them within 60 days or less. Major manufacturers have lines of credit that allow them to keep six months or more of inventory on hand, but little guys have to play it a lot closer to the vest. And when they do re-order there's always that proverbial slow boat from China to contend with. rolleyes.gif
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:49 AM
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That's a fact of life that you have to accept. At least 90% of drivers are sourced from Asia, so you can't pick up the phone and have a shipment arrive on the next Fedex truck. Manufacturers have to buy in quantity to get the best price, but they can't buy more to fill their shelves too soon, because they have to pay for them within 60 days or less. Major manufacturers have lines of credit that allow them to keep six months or more of inventory on hand, but little guys have to play it a lot closer to the vest. And when they do re-order there's always that proverbial slow boat from China to contend with. rolleyes.gif

I believe PSA gets thier drivers from Vegas...not sure if that company out sources to Asia, but PSA claims every part other than the Amp is American made.

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide -->http://www.roomeqwizard.com/REWhelp.pdf

Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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