Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #451 of 466 Old 02-23-2015, 02:36 PM
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I'm wondering how the new PSA S3000i will compare? They look very similar.

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, Panasonic 65VT50, DUAL PSA XS30SE's
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post #452 of 466 Old 02-23-2015, 03:00 PM
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Thanks I've been to these pages. In the photos, he just labels them "Submersive". I see the Maple finish is labeled Submersive HP. Anyway, I think I get it now. Sorry to cause a fuss, but it's just difficult to understand what he is offering.

And thanks for the feedback.

Also I've concluded that Submersive is not really for me. I've read several opinions that state they don't have the transient response I'm looking for.
That's the first I have heard of that. I would spend some time looking through the various "GTG" (get together) threads here. I don't think I've seen a single one where the Submersive didn't score first for overall sound quality? And most of the demo material is usually music.

No one subwoofer is going to be the perfect fit for every room environment and set of personal preferences of course.

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post #453 of 466 Old 02-23-2015, 03:01 PM
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I'm wondering how the new PSA S3000i will compare? They look very similar.

Similar but I would expect the Submersive to still have the edge in extension and output. It really it a benchmark.

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post #454 of 466 Old 02-23-2015, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post

Rythmik seems to offer a happy medium, with both the low extension, good transient response, and decent output. But at the same time, there are subs that offer better definition, and other subs that offer higher output. It's just that Rythmik seems to offer the most of everything in a single package.

Maybe in a few years I can pick up a few of these various subs and experiment.
I own both the Submersive HP and the Rythmik F15HP and I can tell you that they are in different classes.


I really think you ought to do more research. As Tom suggested, have a look at the GTG threads over the past few years.
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post #455 of 466 Old 02-23-2015, 08:37 PM
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The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs. Had eyes on a Submersive and JTR captivator. Talked myself out of it and went with a VTF15H. Was happy with the sub, better than I anticipated, but ever since the day it showed up at my door I had that what if lurking in the back of my mind. Not two years later I am with Captivator S2's and am now in sonic bliss! I should have shelled out the dough from the get go and would have never had to upgrade because I would have already been at the top of the food chain. Not to mention basically every year the bigger badder subs tend to go up in price, from general parts price increases.

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing. If you start with any JTR, a Submersive, PSA Triax, Funk Audio, Or Reaction PS18x your gonna be extremely happy and shouldnt have any of that what if lurking in your head. Well... until you start thinking of adding more
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post #456 of 466 Old 02-23-2015, 09:20 PM
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Yes, thats the story every where i guess. But again, reading up rave reviews on forums is one thing, and actually experiencing it personally another.


for me at least, i would get a sub, be happy with it, thinking i'll never upgrade again, but the food chain seems to be getting bigger every year and with it, my human-natured greedy appetite
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post #457 of 466 Old 02-24-2015, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs. Had eyes on a Submersive and JTR captivator. Talked myself out of it and went with a VTF15H. Was happy with the sub, better than I anticipated, but ever since the day it showed up at my door I had that what if lurking in the back of my mind. Not two years later I am with Captivator S2's and am now in sonic bliss! I should have shelled out the dough from the get go and would have never had to upgrade because I would have already been at the top of the food chain. Not to mention basically every year the bigger badder subs tend to go up in price, from general parts price increases.

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing. If you start with any JTR, a Submersive, PSA Triax, Funk Audio, Or Reaction PS18x your gonna be extremely happy and shouldnt have any of that what if lurking in your head. Well... until you start thinking of adding more
Couldn't agree more with this. If DIY is not an option then choose a dream sub, whatever that may be, save longer than you were planning to and buy it! Anything less than the dream will only keep you wondering and be costly when you inevitably upgrade. The wait will be worth it. To give you some idea I went from a Klipsch KSW 300 which I loved and tried to replace when the amp went. Couldn't find one and the quest began ultimately ending in Dual JTR Caps. Now I nearly pulled the trigger on a few different things but always wanted these after reading many great reviews on this forum and the gtg meets where they performed well. I never thought at the beginning I would actually end up with them as they were 10 times my budget! I thought I'd skip the intermediate steps and after two years I'm yet to feel the need to go any further. I know that not everybody will want to do this but if you're a bass nut you'll find a way.
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post #458 of 466 Old 02-24-2015, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs. Had eyes on a Submersive and JTR captivator. Talked myself out of it and went with a VTF15H. Was happy with the sub, better than I anticipated, but ever since the day it showed up at my door I had that what if lurking in the back of my mind. Not two years later I am with Captivator S2's and am now in sonic bliss! I should have shelled out the dough from the get go and would have never had to upgrade because I would have already been at the top of the food chain. Not to mention basically every year the bigger badder subs tend to go up in price, from general parts price increases.

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing. If you start with any JTR, a Submersive, PSA Triax, Funk Audio, Or Reaction PS18x your gonna be extremely happy and shouldn't have any of that what if lurking in your head. Well... until you start thinking of adding more
+1 for me. IF taken care of, there is no reason that a sub driver shouldn't last 15+ years. And even then you could probably have the driver rebuilt. Its usually the foam or rubber surround that deteriorates. I have read amps going out in maybe 5 years, but they could last a very long time as well. But even that is a replaceable or repairable item. I look at it as a long term investment in the sound system, just as the speakers. Most of your money should go in the speakers and subs.


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post #459 of 466 Old 02-28-2015, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That's the first I have heard of that. I would spend some time looking through the various "GTG" (get together) threads here. I don't think I've seen a single one where the Submersive didn't score first for overall sound quality? And most of the demo material is usually music.
I think most people do not really listen critically, and the heaviest hitter wins. They are all going to sound amazing to a vast majority of listeners, and I'm sure they are impressive. But it's a different experience when a subwoofer sounds like a kick drum, and not a subwoofer, if you know what I mean.

On a different note, I have heard the name Power Sound Audio before, but I just checked out your products. The S3000 looks identical to the Submersive HP. Is there a connection? Also where can I get ICEpower amps. I really want to build a DIY sub, but the only plate amps I can find are at Parts Express.

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The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs...

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing.
My dilemma is not "should I spend less or go big". My dilemma is that every high excursion subwoofer driver I have ever heard does not give realistic instrumental sound. My theory is that they are really only good for, well... sub-woofing. That's why I think the best solution is dual subs. I don't mean 2 of the same. I mean 2 lightweight quick-response drivers - 18" pro sound drivers, and 2 high excursion drivers. It only seems appropriate.
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post #460 of 466 Old 03-01-2015, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
I think most people do not really listen critically, and the heaviest hitter wins. They are all going to sound amazing to a vast majority of listeners, and I'm sure they are impressive. But it's a different experience when a subwoofer sounds like a kick drum, and not a subwoofer, if you know what I mean.



On a different note, I have heard the name Power Sound Audio before, but I just checked out your products. The S3000 looks identical to the Submersive HP. Is there a connection? Also where can I get ICEpower amps. I really want to build a DIY sub, but the only plate amps I can find are at Parts Express.
Speakerpower is all the plate amp you'll ever need







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My dilemma is not "should I spend less or go big". My dilemma is that every high excursion subwoofer driver I have ever heard does not give realistic instrumental sound. My theory is that they are really only good for, well... sub-woofing. That's why I think the best solution is dual subs. I don't mean 2 of the same. I mean 2 lightweight quick-response drivers - 18" pro sound drivers, and 2 high excursion drivers. It only seems appropriate.
Are you saying that excursion capability of a driver is the determining factor in how accurate it sounds?

Also, what exactly do you mean by quick response, because two drivers of differing "weight", playing at the same spl with the same 30hz tone are both moving exactly the same amount of space per second?
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post #461 of 466 Old 03-01-2015, 03:31 AM
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Speakerpower is all the plate amp you'll ever need
Thanks!!!

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Are you saying that excursion capability of a driver is the determining factor in how accurate it sounds?

Also, what exactly do you mean by quick response, because two drivers of differing "weight", playing at the same spl with the same 30hz tone are both moving exactly the same amount of space per second?
I am saying I think there may be a correlation between excursion and accuracy for anything higher than sub-bass. Just like a mid-range or full-range that claims 20khz response, which it can do, but cannot respond fast enough to convincingly sound like a symbol crash.

I think it has a lot to do with the mass of moving components, and maybe resistance added by a stiff surround. If you take the time to pull up all of the Dayton Audio 18" drivers for instance, both in the speaker components and pro audio sections, you'll see that in general, as Xmax increases, so does diaphram mass.

Also transducers typically do really well in their few octaves of range. It makes sense that a driver designed to play at 10hz would not do so well at 80hz. This may not seem like a huge range, but it's 3 octaves, same range as 2.5khz - 20khz.

Many 3-4" drivers claim to be full range, but they don't respond quickly enough to be accurate in the high frequencies. I think the same thing happens with subwoofers that are designed to play loud and low. They just don't respond quickly enough to be convincing in the musical spectrum.

At least that is my theory based on what I've seen and heard, and not having multiple subs with varying characteristics on hand to do more formal testing. I do have a 10" ported Tannoy and an 18" Bag End Infrasub, but they are hardly comparable.

I would like to purchase a few of those drivers I talked about from Dayton and build some subs to compare. When I get a house with a workshop or garage I will do it.
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post #462 of 466 Old 03-01-2015, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Thanks!!!



I am saying I think there may be a correlation between excursion and accuracy for anything higher than sub-bass. Just like a mid-range or full-range that claims 20khz response, which it can do, but cannot respond fast enough to convincingly sound like a symbol crash.

I think it has a lot to do with the mass of moving components, and maybe resistance added by a stiff surround. If you take the time to pull up all of the Dayton Audio 18" drivers for instance, both in the speaker components and pro audio sections, you'll see that in general, as Xmax increases, so does diaphram mass.

Also transducers typically do really well in their few octaves of range. It makes sense that a driver designed to play at 10hz would not do so well at 80hz. This may not seem like a huge range, but it's 3 octaves, same range as 2.5khz - 20khz.

Many 3-4" drivers claim to be full range, but they don't respond quickly enough to be accurate in the high frequencies. I think the same thing happens with subwoofers that are designed to play loud and low. They just don't respond quickly enough to be convincing in the musical spectrum.

At least that is my theory based on what I've seen and heard, and not having multiple subs with varying characteristics on hand to do more formal testing. I do have a 10" ported Tannoy and an 18" Bag End Infrasub, but they are hardly comparable.

I would like to purchase a few of those drivers I talked about from Dayton and build some subs to compare. When I get a house with a workshop or garage I will do it.
Your theory is often repeated, but unfortunately not true. Here's a nice collection of good articles, if you're interested:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1

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post #463 of 466 Old 03-01-2015, 11:34 AM
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Your theory is often repeated, but unfortunately not true. Here's a nice collection of good articles, if you're interested:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1
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Subwoofers really can be broken down in two categories: Mass controlled drivers and Compliance controlled drivers. Mass controlled tends have low xmax and high sensitivity. These tend to be punchy and very loud and mostly used in live concerts for sound reinforcement or even car SPL competitions. Compliance controlled subwoofers which tend to be the majority of home and car audio subwoofers. They have high xmax, more weight, lower sensitivity, but more SPL in the lower frequency spectrum. Any woofer in these categories can perform well or poor but it largely depends on the required bandwidth. Using a low xmax woofer for subsonic content is probably not ideal and will not only cause distortion but it won’t be efficient. Likewise using a high xmax low sensitivity driver for higher frequencies is not going to be very effective. In truth, there is no one stop solution and most drivers can overlap these areas with good results.
Sounds like he is saying pretty much what I am saying?
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post #464 of 466 Old 03-03-2015, 07:21 PM
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Sounds like he is saying pretty much what I am saying?
Maybe. But, I believe you mentioned mass and excursion of the driver affecting the reproduction of instruments. A good system (e.g., driver, amp, enclosure, room) operating within its limits should be able to accurately reproduce < 80 Hz.

However, if you are proposing adding a MBM (mid-bass module) to a system that has specific driver for a ~50 - 150 Hz frequency range - then yes - you are correct that low xmax high sensitivity drivers are not intended for subsonic bass. There is usually a design compromise made to get extension at the expense of mid-bass and vice-versa, but there are many subs with high excursion that extend just fine to a conventional 80 Hz crossover. A MBM may not be considered a subwoofer, though.

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post #465 of 466 Old 03-03-2015, 11:06 PM
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Maybe. But, I believe you mentioned mass and excursion of the driver affecting the reproduction of instruments. A good system (e.g., driver, amp, enclosure, room) operating within its limits should be able to accurately reproduce < 80 Hz.

However, if you are proposing adding a MBM (mid-bass module) to a system that has specific driver for a ~50 - 150 Hz frequency range - then yes - you are correct that low xmax high sensitivity drivers are not intended for subsonic bass. There is usually a design compromise made to get extension at the expense of mid-bass and vice-versa, but there are many subs with high excursion that extend just fine to a conventional 80 Hz crossover. A MBM may not be considered a subwoofer, though.
I understand. I think there is more to it than this. And I do think that drivers that are intended to play loud at 10-20 hz do not sound good at 50-150 hz.
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post #466 of 466 Old 03-04-2015, 01:13 AM
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I understand. I think there is more to it than this. And I do think that drivers that are intended to play loud at 10-20 hz do not sound good at 50-150 hz.

I wouldn't necessarily say they don't sound good. I'd say that they are less efficient though.
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