Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 16 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-02-2013, 09:51 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,574
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by winwinc81 View Post

Hi Submersive users,

May i know is this beast using LFE connectivity? If not it uses what connectivity? any link that you guys can show me the wires?

Am using SC-LX86 amp... As im pretty new to this sub...so just wanna make sure on the wires connectivity. Tks a mil!

Here's a pic of the amp:



The only input is an XLR connection. It has no RCA inputs, but Mark includes an RCA to XLR adapter with the sub. It has no speaker level inputs, no phase control, no crossovers, or LPF/HPF, only a level control. It is expected that all those other functions reside in the receiver or pre/pro's Bass Management, which your receiver has. In your case, you would connect the RCA to XLR adapter to your receiver's Subwoofer 1output, then an XLR cable from the adapter to the sub.

Craig
winwinc81 likes this.

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-12-2014, 03:55 PM
Member
 
Strjock81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am tired of scouring the interwebz for this info but does anyone have any real information on the drivers inside this sub setup? Pics, info, etc?

Basement Mancave: Samsung 64F8500 / Marantz SR7007 / Sony BDP-S5100 / ARX A5 / HSU VTF-15H

Upstairs Den: Samsung 58C7000 / Random Samsung Soundbar/ Wireless Sub
Strjock81 is offline  
Old 03-12-2014, 04:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
oneeyeblind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 878
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strjock81 View Post

I am tired of scouring the interwebz for this info but does anyone have any real information on the drivers inside this sub setup? Pics, info, etc?

From the Seaston sumbserive 1 thread page: 225

Link
Seaton Sound SubMersive1 - Page 225

Pictures



0





A quote from mark
Quote:
The photos of the box assembly process linked previously were more about the somewhat unique process and the design details and planning that went into the assembly. With the process well polished now we can have cabinets reliably produced to meet multiples of current demand. You will also not see many pictures or nitty-gritty details of the amplifier. I sell the SubMersive as a solution to achieve specific results, not just an assembly of parts. The same is true of how I have presented the Catalyst 12C, and in both cases that was done purposely. Much like the range of performance capabilities of the SubMersive, no single part in the SubMersive is exceedingly impressive looking, but the total collection of parts and performance have impressed many.

It is admittedly a deliberate narrative I've chosen to focus on, as there are plenty of products past and current which look like they should or could have compared well with or exceeded what the SubMersive offers. All made different choices in design, optimization and execution which makes for a different end experience when you fire them up in your own system.

I just glanced through various pictures I have filed away related to the SubMersive, and the only pictures of the driver I even have saved are from way back during development. I have repeatedly emphasized that I made the choice to employ 2 quality drivers which I optimized specifically for my use rather than a single monster driver. As such, the driver looks good, but is far from flashy. Some may recall these very early photos from more than 6 years ago alongside some very early prototype cabinets:



As you can see the driver uses the same 12-spoke cast aluminum frame seen on so many of today's subwoofers along with a large diameter spider and a pair of stacked magnets under the rubber "boot". The LAB15 from Eminence was added as a standard offering from Eminence a couple years ago. It shares most cosmetic parts, but has very different parameters as it was intended for bass horn and related pro use. It was added to both advertise what Eminence could build at the 15" size and to help insure the baskets and other unique parts would be kept in the Eminence parts bin for myself and the other manufacturer who was using the similar platform in the pro audio world. The lack of flash and style to the Eminence parts is hugely countered by Eminence being an exceptionally reliable supplier to work with. Over the next few weeks we will finally achieve my goal of keeping 2 or more SubMersive HP's in both black oak and black maple packed and ready to ship the same day. We keep 2-4 dozen SubMersives in our various finishes ready to load with amplifiers and test/pack per order, which makes for a turn around of same or next business day for most items. Those who have followed other internet direct manufacturers know how long or unknown the wait has been or currently is on other products.



Indeed, and it's a great thing to see so many SubMersive owners understanding the same.



I don't recall asking people not to post pictures. So few have had to replace a driver with single digit replacements over 6 years time that there aren't many who have had any reason to open up and take pictures. The replacements have been due to internal glue issues which only were identifiable with extended use. We have yet to see a failure related to extreme use. That's not a challenge guys! It's possible to break most anything with enough creativity. Fortunately I'm pretty creative in this regard myself.
Balbolito and dsrussell like this.

ShaunH
oneeyeblind is online now  
Old 03-13-2014, 08:25 AM
Member
 
Strjock81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank you very much. It's nigh impossible to find anything of substance about this setup.

Basement Mancave: Samsung 64F8500 / Marantz SR7007 / Sony BDP-S5100 / ARX A5 / HSU VTF-15H

Upstairs Den: Samsung 58C7000 / Random Samsung Soundbar/ Wireless Sub
Strjock81 is offline  
Old 03-13-2014, 09:11 AM
Advanced Member
 
oneeyeblind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 878
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strjock81 View Post

Thank you very much. It's nigh impossible to find anything of substance about this setup.

No, problem your not the only one to be frustrated by lack of info.

ShaunH
oneeyeblind is online now  
Old 04-18-2014, 01:20 PM
Member
 
fxe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 12

i just got my first seaton sub.don't need any measurements,charts,or shinny  brouchures. i hope Mark doesn't waste any money on that bs.

please continue to design,produce,and sell the best sub i have ever heard.i felt guilty leaving doc hsu , after 15 years of using his products.

This sub has a twin on order , and i can't wait.

IF IT WORKS ,DON'T FIX IT !

Thanks Mark for your elegant design,beautiful bass,and affordable STATE OF THE ART.

countryWV likes this.
fxe2 is online now  
Old 02-23-2015, 09:01 AM
Senior Member
 
GrandPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Wow I can't find good information on products from Seaton. Their website links directly to a forum, which has one thread for product info, and does not show pictures. Any links to pictures do not identify the subs being shown. I'm sure that Mark, or someone familiar with his products, can look at his forum and identify exactly what is what, but someone trying to learn about his products is in the dark.
GrandPixel is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 09:30 AM
Member
 
fxe2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Wow I can't find good information on products from Seaton. Their website links directly to a forum, which has one thread for product info, and does not show pictures. Any links to pictures do not identify the subs being shown. I'm sure that Mark, or someone familiar with his products, can look at his forum and identify exactly what is what, but someone trying to learn about his products is in the dark.
Give Mark a call.poke around the website,there is allot of info.i believe his efforts are on production.not slick marketing.i ordered some esoteric speakers from another company,and its been 4 months.still not done.
These guys are artists, let them create.you can get a any sub immediately,take the time to talk with MARK. A really nice man.both of these guys have taught me some patience.
good luck.emasil me with any questions fendryck@tampabay.rr.com
fxe2 is online now  
Old 02-23-2015, 10:23 AM
Senior Member
 
GrandPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by fxe2 View Post
Give Mark a call.poke around the website,there is allot of info.i believe his efforts are on production.not slick marketing.i ordered some esoteric speakers from another company,and its been 4 months.still not done.
These guys are artists, let them create.you can get a any sub immediately,take the time to talk with MARK. A really nice man.both of these guys have taught me some patience.
good luck.emasil me with any questions fendryck@tampabay.rr.com
Thanks, and I'm sure he's a great guy and willing to help, but I'm not looking for slick marketing, just basic product information. Also this is a hobby, and I am not in the market right now, just doing research. Or I suppose you could say I'm always in the market, just not ready to buy right now.

I own a Bag End Infrasub-18 that I recently rebuilt because it was flood damaged. But I had my sights set on Rythmik for the future. I am seeing the name Seaton a lot, and wanted to see what he has to offer. I really don't want to call him just for basic product information. Essentially what I've had to do is browse forums and search google, and piece together bits of information.

I'm still not really certain what exactly he offers.
GrandPixel is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 11:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Wow I can't find good information on products from Seaton. Their website links directly to a forum, which has one thread for product info, and does not show pictures. Any links to pictures do not identify the subs being shown. I'm sure that Mark, or someone familiar with his products, can look at his forum and identify exactly what is what, but someone trying to learn about his products is in the dark.
There is this link to product data, and here are some photos of the different finishes. Hopefully this helps a bit.
DreamWarrior is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 11:40 AM
Senior Member
 
GrandPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
There is this link to product data, and here are some photos of the different finishes. Hopefully this helps a bit.
Thanks I've been to these pages. In the photos, he just labels them "Submersive". I see the Maple finish is labeled Submersive HP. Anyway, I think I get it now. Sorry to cause a fuss, but it's just difficult to understand what he is offering.

And thanks for the feedback.

Also I've concluded that Submersive is not really for me. I've read several opinions that state they don't have the transient response I'm looking for.

I think what I need is 2 sets of subs. One set will be similar to my Bag End Infrasub-18, and the other can be something like the Submersive HP, and cross them over steeply at 20hz or something like that.

Rythmik seems to offer a happy medium, with both the low extension, good transient response, and decent output. But at the same time, there are subs that offer better definition, and other subs that offer higher output. It's just that Rythmik seems to offer the most of everything in a single package.

Maybe in a few years I can pick up a few of these various subs and experiment.

Last edited by GrandPixel; 02-23-2015 at 11:52 AM.
GrandPixel is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 01:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Thanks I've been to these pages. In the photos, he just labels them "Submersive". I see the Maple finish is labeled Submersive HP. Anyway, I think I get it now. Sorry to cause a fuss, but it's just difficult to understand what he is offering.

And thanks for the feedback.

Also I've concluded that Submersive is not really for me. I've read several opinions that state they don't have the transient response I'm looking for.

I think what I need is 2 sets of subs. One set will be similar to my Bag End Infrasub-18, and the other can be something like the Submersive HP, and cross them over steeply at 20hz or something like that.

Rythmik seems to offer a happy medium, with both the low extension, good transient response, and decent output. But at the same time, there are subs that offer better definition, and other subs that offer higher output. It's just that Rythmik seems to offer the most of everything in a single package.

Maybe in a few years I can pick up a few of these various subs and experiment.
Re: transient response -- to each their own, but I have two of these and use them quite a bit for music and I like them quite a bit. They are articulate, play pretty low, and I think they are a great balance for movies/music.

Whatever you choose, best of luck!
DreamWarrior is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 01:30 PM
Member
 
Rod2486's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 33
What response shape are you looking for? The submersive and fv15hp are in two different classes. The submersive is definitely the better sub of the two. But you pay more for that

Last edited by Rod2486; 02-23-2015 at 06:16 PM.
Rod2486 is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 01:36 PM
mnc
AVS Special Member
 
mnc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, GA
Posts: 2,175
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 214
I'm wondering how the new PSA S3000i will compare? They look very similar.

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, Panasonic 65VT50, PSA XS30SE
mnc is online now  
Old 02-23-2015, 02:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,962
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 762 Post(s)
Liked: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Thanks I've been to these pages. In the photos, he just labels them "Submersive". I see the Maple finish is labeled Submersive HP. Anyway, I think I get it now. Sorry to cause a fuss, but it's just difficult to understand what he is offering.

And thanks for the feedback.

Also I've concluded that Submersive is not really for me. I've read several opinions that state they don't have the transient response I'm looking for.
That's the first I have heard of that. I would spend some time looking through the various "GTG" (get together) threads here. I don't think I've seen a single one where the Submersive didn't score first for overall sound quality? And most of the demo material is usually music.

No one subwoofer is going to be the perfect fit for every room environment and set of personal preferences of course.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Richard Cohen and dsrussell like this.
Tom Vodhanel is online now  
Old 02-23-2015, 02:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,962
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 762 Post(s)
Liked: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
I'm wondering how the new PSA S3000i will compare? They look very similar.

Similar but I would expect the Submersive to still have the edge in extension and output. It really it a benchmark.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
mnc, Mike Butny, dsrussell and 1 others like this.
Tom Vodhanel is online now  
Old 02-23-2015, 06:05 PM
Senior Member
 
point1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post

Rythmik seems to offer a happy medium, with both the low extension, good transient response, and decent output. But at the same time, there are subs that offer better definition, and other subs that offer higher output. It's just that Rythmik seems to offer the most of everything in a single package.

Maybe in a few years I can pick up a few of these various subs and experiment.
I own both the Submersive HP and the Rythmik F15HP and I can tell you that they are in different classes.


I really think you ought to do more research. As Tom suggested, have a look at the GTG threads over the past few years.
point1 is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 07:37 PM
Member
 
Rod2486's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 142
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 33
The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs. Had eyes on a Submersive and JTR captivator. Talked myself out of it and went with a VTF15H. Was happy with the sub, better than I anticipated, but ever since the day it showed up at my door I had that what if lurking in the back of my mind. Not two years later I am with Captivator S2's and am now in sonic bliss! I should have shelled out the dough from the get go and would have never had to upgrade because I would have already been at the top of the food chain. Not to mention basically every year the bigger badder subs tend to go up in price, from general parts price increases.

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing. If you start with any JTR, a Submersive, PSA Triax, Funk Audio, Or Reaction PS18x your gonna be extremely happy and shouldnt have any of that what if lurking in your head. Well... until you start thinking of adding more
Bunga99, countryWV and tanbyte like this.
Rod2486 is offline  
Old 02-23-2015, 08:20 PM
Member
 
tanbyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Yes, thats the story every where i guess. But again, reading up rave reviews on forums is one thing, and actually experiencing it personally another.


for me at least, i would get a sub, be happy with it, thinking i'll never upgrade again, but the food chain seems to be getting bigger every year and with it, my human-natured greedy appetite
tanbyte is offline  
Old 02-24-2015, 03:23 AM
Senior Member
 
AJ72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs. Had eyes on a Submersive and JTR captivator. Talked myself out of it and went with a VTF15H. Was happy with the sub, better than I anticipated, but ever since the day it showed up at my door I had that what if lurking in the back of my mind. Not two years later I am with Captivator S2's and am now in sonic bliss! I should have shelled out the dough from the get go and would have never had to upgrade because I would have already been at the top of the food chain. Not to mention basically every year the bigger badder subs tend to go up in price, from general parts price increases.

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing. If you start with any JTR, a Submersive, PSA Triax, Funk Audio, Or Reaction PS18x your gonna be extremely happy and shouldnt have any of that what if lurking in your head. Well... until you start thinking of adding more
Couldn't agree more with this. If DIY is not an option then choose a dream sub, whatever that may be, save longer than you were planning to and buy it! Anything less than the dream will only keep you wondering and be costly when you inevitably upgrade. The wait will be worth it. To give you some idea I went from a Klipsch KSW 300 which I loved and tried to replace when the amp went. Couldn't find one and the quest began ultimately ending in Dual JTR Caps. Now I nearly pulled the trigger on a few different things but always wanted these after reading many great reviews on this forum and the gtg meets where they performed well. I never thought at the beginning I would actually end up with them as they were 10 times my budget! I thought I'd skip the intermediate steps and after two years I'm yet to feel the need to go any further. I know that not everybody will want to do this but if you're a bass nut you'll find a way.

Klipsch: KLF-30, KLF C-7, KG 5.5, KG 4.2 Power&Preamp: Elektra Theatron, Rotel RSP 1570
Subs: Dual Passive JTR 2400 Captivators
Power Amps: Behringer EP 4000, Crown XLS 5000
AJ72 is offline  
Old 02-24-2015, 06:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
Red99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs. Had eyes on a Submersive and JTR captivator. Talked myself out of it and went with a VTF15H. Was happy with the sub, better than I anticipated, but ever since the day it showed up at my door I had that what if lurking in the back of my mind. Not two years later I am with Captivator S2's and am now in sonic bliss! I should have shelled out the dough from the get go and would have never had to upgrade because I would have already been at the top of the food chain. Not to mention basically every year the bigger badder subs tend to go up in price, from general parts price increases.

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing. If you start with any JTR, a Submersive, PSA Triax, Funk Audio, Or Reaction PS18x your gonna be extremely happy and shouldn't have any of that what if lurking in your head. Well... until you start thinking of adding more
+1 for me. IF taken care of, there is no reason that a sub driver shouldn't last 15+ years. And even then you could probably have the driver rebuilt. Its usually the foam or rubber surround that deteriorates. I have read amps going out in maybe 5 years, but they could last a very long time as well. But even that is a replaceable or repairable item. I look at it as a long term investment in the sound system, just as the speakers. Most of your money should go in the speakers and subs.


SOUND: Marantz AV-7702 Pre/Pro, McIntosh MC1706 Amp,
Klipsch RF7-II's,

VIDEO:
Samsung PN64F8500 Plasma TV, Oppo 103D Blue Ray Player
Red99 is offline  
Old 02-28-2015, 09:51 PM
Senior Member
 
GrandPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That's the first I have heard of that. I would spend some time looking through the various "GTG" (get together) threads here. I don't think I've seen a single one where the Submersive didn't score first for overall sound quality? And most of the demo material is usually music.
I think most people do not really listen critically, and the heaviest hitter wins. They are all going to sound amazing to a vast majority of listeners, and I'm sure they are impressive. But it's a different experience when a subwoofer sounds like a kick drum, and not a subwoofer, if you know what I mean.

On a different note, I have heard the name Power Sound Audio before, but I just checked out your products. The S3000 looks identical to the Submersive HP. Is there a connection? Also where can I get ICEpower amps. I really want to build a DIY sub, but the only plate amps I can find are at Parts Express.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod2486 View Post
The way I look at your dilemma is that if you are unsure if you want to start small or go big right out of the gate, go big if funds allow. I once was in your shoes, had my eyes set on some more powerhouse subs...

What I am getting at, If you have the funds to throw it out, I suggest going with the best you can afford at the time of purchasing.
My dilemma is not "should I spend less or go big". My dilemma is that every high excursion subwoofer driver I have ever heard does not give realistic instrumental sound. My theory is that they are really only good for, well... sub-woofing. That's why I think the best solution is dual subs. I don't mean 2 of the same. I mean 2 lightweight quick-response drivers - 18" pro sound drivers, and 2 high excursion drivers. It only seems appropriate.
GrandPixel is offline  
Old 03-01-2015, 01:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DotJun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,226
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 301 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
I think most people do not really listen critically, and the heaviest hitter wins. They are all going to sound amazing to a vast majority of listeners, and I'm sure they are impressive. But it's a different experience when a subwoofer sounds like a kick drum, and not a subwoofer, if you know what I mean.



On a different note, I have heard the name Power Sound Audio before, but I just checked out your products. The S3000 looks identical to the Submersive HP. Is there a connection? Also where can I get ICEpower amps. I really want to build a DIY sub, but the only plate amps I can find are at Parts Express.
Speakerpower is all the plate amp you'll ever need [emoji4]







Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
My dilemma is not "should I spend less or go big". My dilemma is that every high excursion subwoofer driver I have ever heard does not give realistic instrumental sound. My theory is that they are really only good for, well... sub-woofing. That's why I think the best solution is dual subs. I don't mean 2 of the same. I mean 2 lightweight quick-response drivers - 18" pro sound drivers, and 2 high excursion drivers. It only seems appropriate.
Are you saying that excursion capability of a driver is the determining factor in how accurate it sounds?

Also, what exactly do you mean by quick response, because two drivers of differing "weight", playing at the same spl with the same 30hz tone are both moving exactly the same amount of space per second?
DotJun is offline  
Old 03-01-2015, 02:31 AM
Senior Member
 
GrandPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
Speakerpower is all the plate amp you'll ever need [emoji4]
Thanks!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
Are you saying that excursion capability of a driver is the determining factor in how accurate it sounds?

Also, what exactly do you mean by quick response, because two drivers of differing "weight", playing at the same spl with the same 30hz tone are both moving exactly the same amount of space per second?
I am saying I think there may be a correlation between excursion and accuracy for anything higher than sub-bass. Just like a mid-range or full-range that claims 20khz response, which it can do, but cannot respond fast enough to convincingly sound like a symbol crash.

I think it has a lot to do with the mass of moving components, and maybe resistance added by a stiff surround. If you take the time to pull up all of the Dayton Audio 18" drivers for instance, both in the speaker components and pro audio sections, you'll see that in general, as Xmax increases, so does diaphram mass.

Also transducers typically do really well in their few octaves of range. It makes sense that a driver designed to play at 10hz would not do so well at 80hz. This may not seem like a huge range, but it's 3 octaves, same range as 2.5khz - 20khz.

Many 3-4" drivers claim to be full range, but they don't respond quickly enough to be accurate in the high frequencies. I think the same thing happens with subwoofers that are designed to play loud and low. They just don't respond quickly enough to be convincing in the musical spectrum.

At least that is my theory based on what I've seen and heard, and not having multiple subs with varying characteristics on hand to do more formal testing. I do have a 10" ported Tannoy and an 18" Bag End Infrasub, but they are hardly comparable.

I would like to purchase a few of those drivers I talked about from Dayton and build some subs to compare. When I get a house with a workshop or garage I will do it.
GrandPixel is offline  
Old 03-01-2015, 06:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
WhskyTangoFoxtrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 1,434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Thanks!!!



I am saying I think there may be a correlation between excursion and accuracy for anything higher than sub-bass. Just like a mid-range or full-range that claims 20khz response, which it can do, but cannot respond fast enough to convincingly sound like a symbol crash.

I think it has a lot to do with the mass of moving components, and maybe resistance added by a stiff surround. If you take the time to pull up all of the Dayton Audio 18" drivers for instance, both in the speaker components and pro audio sections, you'll see that in general, as Xmax increases, so does diaphram mass.

Also transducers typically do really well in their few octaves of range. It makes sense that a driver designed to play at 10hz would not do so well at 80hz. This may not seem like a huge range, but it's 3 octaves, same range as 2.5khz - 20khz.

Many 3-4" drivers claim to be full range, but they don't respond quickly enough to be accurate in the high frequencies. I think the same thing happens with subwoofers that are designed to play loud and low. They just don't respond quickly enough to be convincing in the musical spectrum.

At least that is my theory based on what I've seen and heard, and not having multiple subs with varying characteristics on hand to do more formal testing. I do have a 10" ported Tannoy and an 18" Bag End Infrasub, but they are hardly comparable.

I would like to purchase a few of those drivers I talked about from Dayton and build some subs to compare. When I get a house with a workshop or garage I will do it.
Your theory is often repeated, but unfortunately not true. Here's a nice collection of good articles, if you're interested:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1

A Nice Radio Station with Great Music. For Those That Like That Sort of Thing: RadioParadise.com

WhskyTangoFoxtrt is offline  
Old 03-01-2015, 10:34 AM
Senior Member
 
GrandPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post
Your theory is often repeated, but unfortunately not true. Here's a nice collection of good articles, if you're interested:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1
Quote:
Subwoofers really can be broken down in two categories: Mass controlled drivers and Compliance controlled drivers. Mass controlled tends have low xmax and high sensitivity. These tend to be punchy and very loud and mostly used in live concerts for sound reinforcement or even car SPL competitions. Compliance controlled subwoofers which tend to be the majority of home and car audio subwoofers. They have high xmax, more weight, lower sensitivity, but more SPL in the lower frequency spectrum. Any woofer in these categories can perform well or poor but it largely depends on the required bandwidth. Using a low xmax woofer for subsonic content is probably not ideal and will not only cause distortion but it won’t be efficient. Likewise using a high xmax low sensitivity driver for higher frequencies is not going to be very effective. In truth, there is no one stop solution and most drivers can overlap these areas with good results.
Sounds like he is saying pretty much what I am saying?
GrandPixel is offline  
Old 03-03-2015, 06:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
WhskyTangoFoxtrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 1,434
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Sounds like he is saying pretty much what I am saying?
Maybe. But, I believe you mentioned mass and excursion of the driver affecting the reproduction of instruments. A good system (e.g., driver, amp, enclosure, room) operating within its limits should be able to accurately reproduce < 80 Hz.

However, if you are proposing adding a MBM (mid-bass module) to a system that has specific driver for a ~50 - 150 Hz frequency range - then yes - you are correct that low xmax high sensitivity drivers are not intended for subsonic bass. There is usually a design compromise made to get extension at the expense of mid-bass and vice-versa, but there are many subs with high excursion that extend just fine to a conventional 80 Hz crossover. A MBM may not be considered a subwoofer, though.

A Nice Radio Station with Great Music. For Those That Like That Sort of Thing: RadioParadise.com

WhskyTangoFoxtrt is offline  
Old 03-03-2015, 10:06 PM
Senior Member
 
GrandPixel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post
Maybe. But, I believe you mentioned mass and excursion of the driver affecting the reproduction of instruments. A good system (e.g., driver, amp, enclosure, room) operating within its limits should be able to accurately reproduce < 80 Hz.

However, if you are proposing adding a MBM (mid-bass module) to a system that has specific driver for a ~50 - 150 Hz frequency range - then yes - you are correct that low xmax high sensitivity drivers are not intended for subsonic bass. There is usually a design compromise made to get extension at the expense of mid-bass and vice-versa, but there are many subs with high excursion that extend just fine to a conventional 80 Hz crossover. A MBM may not be considered a subwoofer, though.
I understand. I think there is more to it than this. And I do think that drivers that are intended to play loud at 10-20 hz do not sound good at 50-150 hz.
GrandPixel is offline  
Old 03-04-2015, 12:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DotJun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,226
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 301 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
I understand. I think there is more to it than this. And I do think that drivers that are intended to play loud at 10-20 hz do not sound good at 50-150 hz.

I wouldn't necessarily say they don't sound good. I'd say that they are less efficient though.
DotJun is offline  
 

Tags
Seaton Sound Submersive H P , Svs Pb13 Ultra
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off