Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:03 PM
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Actually the Chase VS 18.1 is better from 20hz and above for $1000.

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Actually the Chase VS 18.1 is better from 20hz and above for $1000.

coming from the guy that only cares about extension down to 3hz.

oh and its 1240.00 delivered with the dayton amp, which the FV15HP would have it beat. Its 1490.00 delivered with the sub1 amp and the FV15HP would still have it beat in max output mode. The question is what amp would it take to get the passive numbers?
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:04 PM
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It would take a $300 behringer amp. I would not buy those amps with a passive sub. Yes I care about 3 hz and why I don't own either. I would rather have the SS 18.2, XS-30, Submersive, cap S2 etc.. Of course I would be multiples of each to make everything matter. Oh and to stay on topic the Submersive should be tested too. Why not! I should buy that used one and send it in but then I would get blasted. I don't see why an end user can't test their own subs.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It would take a $300 behringer amp. I would not buy those amps with a passive sub. Yes I care about 3 hz and why I don't own either. I would rather have the SS 18.2, XS-30, Submersive, cap S2 etc.. Of course I would be multiples of each to make everything matter. Oh and to stay on topic the Submersive should be tested too. Why not! I should buy that used one and send it in but then I would get blasted. I don't see why an end user can't test their own subs.

I talked to craig about this a couple weeks ago when I was looking at that sub. He said it would take a really powerful amp. smile.gif (however I would think the ep4000 would suffice).

I agree multiple sealed subs is the way for deep extension...however that is not feasible in most folks ht rooms. That being said, the FV15HP offers the deepest extension with the most output than any ported sub under 2k. However I only brought this up because of steve's initial post about the ultra.

Now to get back on topic, I have had my eye on the used submersive aswell and thought about the same thing as you. back to my original post, I plan on starting a poll thread on which sub to target for testing next. Thats of course if Josh is willing. My apologies for derailing the thread, but there was a reason for it. Now I am happily smile.gif on Steve's ignore list, so this should not happen again.

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Old 07-09-2013, 10:28 PM
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Josh Ricci is respected for his testing methodology, his accuracy and his consistency. That respect should not be subject to the whims of company owners or consumers-at-large.

No-one seems to think that his up-coming testing of the HSU VTF-15H he was recently sent by an owner - because HSU hasn't sent / won't send him one - will affect his reputation. The reason he was sent a VTF-15H is precisely because of his reputation. As long as he remains consistent in his testing, his reputation will, rightly, remain intact.

I don't see how / why testing an owner's SubMersive would be any different.
+1. Buying a $2k plus sub unheard/unseen is hard without any test from Ricci. I am not sure if I am willing to do that. I give lots of credit to those who offer sending sub to Ricci for testing (VTF15H). If more subs can be tested by Ricci, we will have one central data bass to compare all ID subs which helps lots of folks here making their decision a lot easier. I understand that Mark does not want Craig to send in his sub but to me, it is my sub and I can do whatever I want with it if Josh agrees to test my sub.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

+1. Buying a $2k plus sub unheard/unseen is hard without any test from Ricci. I am not sure if I am willing to do that. I give lots of credit to those who offer sending sub to Ricci for testing (VTF15H). If more subs can be tested by Ricci, we will have one central data bass to compare all ID subs which helps lots of folks here making their decision a lot easier. I understand that Mark does not want Craig to send in his sub but to me, it is my sub and I can do whatever I want with it if Josh agrees to test my sub.

I would agree with you if the SubM HP was a recently released subwoofer from a newly formed company but that simply isn't the case, is it? It is a subwoofer that has been around since 2006 being sold from a reputable seller in Seaton Sound, has been subjectively compared at more than half-a-dozen GTG's very favourably against known (SPL) heavy hitters, yet you still think people should be apprehensive about buying it sight unseen because D-B have yet to measure it? Odd, considering the vast majority of ID subwoofers have yet to be tested by D-B and again the vast majority are bought unheard/unseen as well.

I've been saying for a while now that looking at a spreadsheet with max SPL figures simply doesn't give you the full picture of a subwoofers performance vs another. Almost no one could notice a 1-2dB difference at any frequency yet it doesn't stop people declaring one subwoofer better than another because of such a 'difference'. If all you did was play sine waves all day, then such numbers would tell you all you needed to know. If, however, you play real-world material where, as Mark was saying, multiple frequencies are played all at once, all of a sudden a subjective difference can be heard between such evenly matched (SPL-wise) subs. It seems people are skeptical that a SubM could best a PB13-U, once again ignoring that real-world material demands a sub play a multitude of signals across the spectrum all at once (as opposed to a linear, progressive sweep) where the SubM's design is highly efficient in the upper frequencies, which could account for the subjective differences... but would not be seen on max SPL chart.

It should go without saying that a test by D-B won't change any SubMersive owners' opinion about their subwoofer... excluding perhaps the placebo effect. Mark has given his reasons multiple times, and again on this thread, about why he considered third-party measurements a lower-priority, which incidentally is no different to PSA's response to the same question, so I don't understand what the fuss is all about.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

I would agree with you if the SubM HP was a recently released subwoofer from a newly formed company but that simply isn't the case, is it? It is a subwoofer that has been around since 2006 being sold from a reputable seller in Seaton Sound, has been subjectively compared at more than half-a-dozen GTG's very favourably against known (SPL) heavy hitters, yet you still think people should be apprehensive about buying it sight unseen because D-B have yet to measure it? Odd, considering the vast majority of ID subwoofers have yet to be tested by D-B and again the vast majority are bought unheard/unseen as well.

I've been saying for a while now that looking at a spreadsheet with max SPL figures simply doesn't give you the full picture of a subwoofers performance vs another. Almost no one could notice a 1-2dB difference at any frequency yet it doesn't stop people declaring one subwoofer better than another because of such a 'difference'. If all you did was play sine waves all day, then such numbers would tell you all you needed to know. If, however, you play real-world material where, as Mark was saying, multiple frequencies are played all at once, all of a sudden a subjective difference can be heard between such evenly matched (SPL-wise) subs. It seems people are skeptical that a SubM could best a PB13-U, once again ignoring that real-world material demands a sub play a multitude of signals across the spectrum all at once (as opposed to a linear, progressive sweep) where the SubM's design is highly efficient in the upper frequencies, which could account for the subjective differences... but would not be seen on max SPL chart.

It should go without saying that a test by D-B won't change any SubMersive owners' opinion about their subwoofer... excluding perhaps the placebo effect. Mark has given his reasons multiple times, and again on this thread, about why he considered third-party measurements a lower-priority, which incidentally is no different to PSA's response to the same question, so I don't understand what the fuss is all about.

I honestly don't see why it matters that the SubM HP has been around since 2006 as a reason not to test it. I can respect the fact that Mark doesn't want it tested but something to keep in mind is that he has more to lose then he does to gain by having it tested.

I know from reading all the GTG threads that its a solid performer, but lets just say that it didn't test well what then?

I'm also not suggesting it would test bad, I really do like the SubM HP. Heck I own a very similar designed sub. I'm just playing devils advocate and saying "what if", and that's what I could see being a possible reason for Mark not wanting it tested.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:18 AM
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I honestly don't see why it matters that the SubM HP has been around since 2006 as a reason not to test it. I can respect the fact that Mark doesn't want it tested but something to keep in mind is that he has more to lose then he does to gain by having it tested.

I know from reading all the GTG threads that its a solid performer, but lets just say that it didn't test well what then?

I'm also not suggesting it would test bad, I really do like the SubM HP. Heck I own a very similar designed sub. I'm just playing devils advocate and saying "what if", and that's what I could see being a possible reason for Mark not wanting it tested.

Re-read what I said. I was not using the fact that it has been around is 06' as a reason not to test it, merely that it is a well established sub that won its reputation through owner reviews, GTGs and a number of other reasons. Cowboys expressed reservations about 'buying a $2k plus sub unheard/unseen is hard without any test from Ricci' to which I expressed disbelief in such reasoning considering that these boards talk of little else outside of ID brands of which, to repeat, the vast majority of buyers buy their chosen sub unheard and unseen based off, erm... owner reviews, GTG results etc...

It would seem very unlikely to me that the SubM would perform well at GTGs but perform poorly in objective testing... they seem like mutually exclusive 'what ifs' for mine. Secondly, even if it did test badly, does that mean the owners who have compared the SubM with other well-established, third-party tested subs out there and preferred the former are mistaken somehow, or have poor hearing perhaps? Would that also take away the subjective results at the GTGs, rendering them incorrect? I don't know, you tell me.

Lastly, the SubM is still the sum of its parts so some assumptions can still be made about its performance and limitations. The mentality that SPL numbers is all that matters is tiring, shortsighted and says nothing about other aspects of a subwoofer's design that most consider important (and no, I'm not simply talking about form-factor/aesthetics so much as function).
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post


Lastly, the SubM is still the sum of its parts so some assumptions can still be made about its performance and limitations. The mentality that SPL numbers is all that matters is tiring, shortsighted and says nothing about other aspects of a subwoofer's design that most consider important (and no, I'm not simply talking about form-factor/aesthetics so much as function).

Yet testing still holds merit no matter how you look at it. Otherwise why test any subs at all, look I think really all some of us were trying to accomplish is to have one central place such as data-bass.com where a potential buyer could go take a look at subs they would be interested in buying. Josh Ricci is very well respected for the work he does and has shown to more then capable of conducting proper testing.

Mark doesn't want a SubM HP tested that's his call, I personally think its a shame he doesn't but whatever. Also PSA's response to the same question wasn't the same answer as Mark's, Tom wasn't in any hurry to have a XS30 tested because it was just released and they couldn't keep them on the shelf, every one that was build was sold. He never said he wouldn't have one tested. You're comparing a sub that's been out for 6 months to a sub that's been around for over 6 years.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Yet testing still holds merit no matter how you look at it. Otherwise why test any subs at all, look I think really all some of us were trying to accomplish is to have one central place such as data-bass.com where a potential buyer could go take a look at subs they would be interested in buying. Josh Ricci is very well respected for the work he does and has shown to more then capable of conducting proper testing.

Mark doesn't want a SubM HP tested that's his call, I personally think its a shame he doesn't but whatever. Also PSA's response to the same question wasn't the same answer as Mark's, Tom wasn't in any hurry to have a XS30 tested because it was just released and they couldn't keep them on the shelf, every one that was build was sold. He never said he wouldn't have one tested. You're comparing a sub that's been out for 6 months to a sub that's been around for over 6 years.

Please just read my posts next time and stop reading into them... it would make all of this a lot easier.

All I have asserted is that testing cannot tell you all there is to know about a subwoofer. I don't know how you take that to read 'objective testing is useless/worthless/unnecessary'. I really don't.

I'm also not really sure how Josh Ricci's veracity/integrity/competency comes into this discussion, either.

Secondly, you either haven't read this thread all the way through or are trying to stir dirt for some reason, but Mark has already stated the following in this thread:
Quote:
As I said above, I'll be contacting Josh about measurements once the website is up

He said the same thing months ago on his forum.

Lastly, Mark's original reason for not sending the SubM off for testing was exactly the same as PSA's: he 'couldn't keep them on the shelf' and there was simply no need to go to the trouble of getting a unit tested when the demand was continually high. So yes, Mark's reasons were the same as PSA's originally and his reasons have only changed in the recent past when he made it a priority to get the website up before he would send a unit to Josh to test.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

Please just read my posts next time and stop reading into them... it would make all of this a lot easier.

All I have asserted is that testing cannot tell you all there is to know about a subwoofer. I don't know how you take that to read 'objective testing is useless/worthless/unnecessary'. I really don't.

I'm also not really sure how Josh Ricci's veracity/integrity/competency comes into this discussion, either.

Secondly, you either haven't read this thread all the way through or are trying to stir dirt for some reason, but Mark has already stated the following in this thread:
He said the same thing months ago on his forum.

Lastly, Mark's original reason for not sending the SubM off for testing was exactly the same as PSA's: he 'couldn't keep them on the shelf' and there was simply no need to go to the trouble of getting a unit tested when the demand was continually high. So yes, Mark's reasons were the same as PSA's originally and his reasons have only changed in the recent past when he made it a priority to get the website up before he would send a unit to Josh to test.

I am most certainly not trying to stir the pot, I've said all along that I'm a big fan of Mark and his products and that he makes top quality stuff. I've just said all along that it sucks he doesn't want the SubM HP tested, or "at this moment". Honestly though at this rate it could still be at least a year before he even considers getting one tested. Which again is his call, it's his business. It still sucks (and I only mean that in a curious to know kind of way) because I'd really like to see what it's measured capabilities really are.

And your responses are pretty much what I would expect from a SubM HP owner, and I don't mean that in a bad way. cool.gif
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:46 AM
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I am most certainly not trying to stir the pot, I've said all along that I'm a big fan of Mark and his products and that he makes top quality stuff. I've just said all along that it sucks he doesn't want the SubM HP tested, or "at this moment". Honestly though at this rate it could still be at least a year before he even considers getting one tested. Which again is his call, it's his business. It still sucks (and I only mean that in a curious to know kind of way) because I'd really like to see what it's measured capabilities really are.

And your responses are pretty much what I would expect from a SubM HP owner, and I don't mean that in a bad way. cool.gif

How many times have we seen subjective opinion come up without backing up our opinions with facts, measurements or figures? Testing does give us a good idea to a degree what a subs capabilities are within certain perimeters. No that’s not to say it gives us the whole picture/0-60, but it’s always been a very important factor for inquiring minds. A sub with the reputation as the SubM is due for the bench considering how long it’s been out imo. I have no doubt that the SubM would fare well and is a good quality product, but none the same, the bench would be very interesting as it always is pertaining to ones total informed conclusion of said product. I have and would have the same attitude towards other subs, so this in no way shape or form is directed exclusively towards the SubM.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:19 AM
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Josh Ricci is not going to test any sub unless the manufacture or designer (Mark Seaton) asks him to do it. It is a matter of mutual Respect. Anyone who wants to conduct their own measurements or tests is welcome. SubMersive owners have been doing this and posting results for years. The conflict seems that only Riccis test would be accepted and he is not going to do it till Mark asks him to.
This can be confirmed if someone would just ask Josh.
I know my opinion is not worth 2 cents but here it is. The SubMersive HP is an awesome Home Theater Subwoofer solution. In Lieu of measurements first hand experience through GTGs and owner reviews of over 1 year can still lead to an educated decision. The SubMersive HP holds its resale value so well that it is little to no risk in giving it a try.
Anyone who is actually interested in purchasing on can find a plethora of good information on this AVS forum or just call Mark.
If this discussion can go back to "What is" instead of "What if" there will be less Ball Busting.smile.gif My stomach is a little queezy from those pictures..
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV 
Josh Ricci is not going to test any sub unless the manufacture or designer (Mark Seaton) asks him to do it. It is a matter of mutual Respect.
Josh has agreed to test an HSU VTF-15H sent to him by the sub's owner. No surprise: He is in the business of testing subwoofers, and doing so in an accurate and reputable manner.

But according to your assertion, the fact that he is testing an owner's VTF-15H means that he does not respect HSU. I disagree.

Accurately and reputably testing a product has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting a person, a company or a product.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:33 AM
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Mutual respect between Mark and Josh who have been in direct contact with each other and are working on getting it scheduled in for a test.
I am trying to be simple not controversial. This discussion has been going on for years and always ends with the same results.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Josh Ricci is not going to test any sub unless the manufacture or designer (Mark Seaton) asks him to do it. It is a matter of mutual Respect. Anyone who wants to conduct their own measurements or tests is welcome. SubMersive owners have been doing this and posting results for years. The conflict seems that only Riccis test would be accepted and he is not going to do it till Mark asks him to.
This can be confirmed if someone would just ask Josh.
I know my opinion is not worth 2 cents but here it is. The SubMersive HP is an awesome Home Theater Subwoofer solution. In Lieu of measurements first hand experience through GTGs and owner reviews of over 1 year can still lead to an educated decision. The SubMersive HP holds its resale value so well that it is little to no risk in giving it a try.
Anyone who is actually interested in purchasing on can find a plethora of good information on this AVS forum or just call Mark.
If this discussion can go back to "What is" instead of "What if" there will be less Ball Busting.smile.gif My stomach is a little queezy from those pictures..
Not quite but almost 2 cents
Chris

Well said and communicated and thus a reputation is born. This is a very good reason why imo the SubM is due for the bench.. just sayin

Make note to self> Go easy on the Ball busting pics. smile.gif

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Old 07-10-2013, 06:52 AM
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[quote name="eljaycanuck" url="/t/1480773/is-the-seaton-submersive-hp-the-benchmark-sub/90#post_23513554"

Accurately and reputably testing a product has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting a person, a company or a product.[/quote]


The point I was trying to make is that sense they are already in talks it would be perceived to be a behind the back or underhanded move to test the SubM without telling Mark straight to his face.
I may be wrong but a simple call to Josh would be the smart move.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I honestly don't see why it matters that the SubM HP has been around since 2006 as a reason not to test it. I can respect the fact that Mark doesn't want it tested but something to keep in mind is that he has more to lose then he does to gain by having it tested.

I know from reading all the GTG threads that its a solid performer, but lets just say that it didn't test well what then?

I'm also not suggesting it would test bad, I really do like the SubM HP. Heck I own a very similar designed sub. I'm just playing devils advocate and saying "what if", and that's what I could see being a possible reason for Mark not wanting it tested.

Its not the amount of time the subwoofer has been out. I believe Mark shares a similar opinion as Jon Lane from Arx. They don't want their products to be "bench raced" on the forums using just numbers on a spread sheet gain from a laboratory test. But instead using actual real world listening with your own ears, using not sine waves but music and actual content..

Measurements and testing is all well and good and I actually visit Josh's site regularly. But at the end of the day those measurements only give you a small snap shot of the subwoofer/speakers performance that no real world listening can replace. There also the fact that many can and do misinterpete the measurements for good or bad or blow them way out of proportion.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV 
The point I was trying to make is that sense they are already in talks it would be perceived to be a behind the back or underhanded move to test the SubM without telling Mark straight to his face.
I may be wrong but a simple call to Josh would be the smart move.
Fair enough, but my point is that even if Josh has agreed to test a new SubMersive once Mark finally has one ready for testing, nothing should prevent him from testing a current SubM sent to him by a paying customer.

Josh's business is testing subwoofers. As long as he adheres to his testing methodology and conducts his testing in a consistent and impartial manner, there is nothing disrespectful about testing subwoofers other than those submitted to him by a company.

What would actually be disrespectful would be for any manufacturer to pressure Josh into not testing a product, and potentially compromising his reputation of impartiality because of it.

What Josh chooses to do is, ultimately, his own business. But, IMO, he must have the right to choose freely.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:17 AM
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But instead using actual real world listening with your own ears, using not sine waves but music and actual content..

Measurements and testing is all well and good and I actually visit Josh's site regularly. But at the end of the day those measurements only give you a small snap shot of the subwoofer/speakers performance that no real world listening can replace. There also the fact that many can and do misinterpete the measurements for good or bad or blow them way out of proportion.

This sort of sounds like what I would expect from a Boe commercial. No disrespect intended but I don’t agree at all! It plays a part, but it does not leave one with a totally informed decision process. cool.gif

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Old 07-10-2013, 07:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Thank you Craig. I must have missed it. Still this should have been up in the specs section where people can actually find it. I mean seriously why isn't this stated in the specs section of pricing and availability thread on marks forum?
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/undefined/post?id=1945927#1

That was posted in 2007. It's kinda buried now but it's still linked in a "sticky" on the front page of the Seaton Forum: http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post/Product-Listing-Availability-Status-and-Pricing-3364736

Nonetheless, I totally agree that Mark needs to get his website up and running. I have called him out on this numerous times over the years. His total business is internet direct. His website ought to be his face to the world. It basically doesn't exist at this point.

A frequency response curve showing that the sub gets only 25 dB above the threshold of hearing @ 20 Hz with no specification of nonlinear distortion levels does not seem much of a qualifier for industry benchmark.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:49 AM
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I should buy that used one and send it in but then I would get blasted. I don't see why an end user can't test their own subs.
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I understand that Mark does not want Craig to send in his sub but to me, it is my sub and I can do whatever I want with it if Josh agrees to test my sub.
Yes, they're my subs, and I could send one in for testing if I wanted to. Mark hasn't "forbidden" me from sending one in, and there is no legal action he could take if I did. But I would only be doing it for the sake of the forum, and to put an end to all the debate and speculation and whining. For myself, I don't need any 3rd party verification of the Submersive's performance capabilities. All I need to do is walk into my theater and I have all the proof I need. I have measured my own Submersives in my own room, and I know EXACTLY what they're capable of.

Frankly, it's more important to me to respect Mark's timetable than it is to provide the forum with some numbers. I consider Mark a friend, I am not about to jeopardize that friendship just so the self-proclaimed "experts" on this forum have some numbers to bandy about.

Besides, I doubt Josh Ricci would even accept one of my subs for testing at this point. MK, before you buy that used one and send to Josh, contact him and see if he'll even accept it.
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I'm not skeptical that under a variety of circumstances/program material, the SubM could best the PB13; I am skeptical of claims such as the one I commented on re: an 8+dB advantage over the entire spectrum. That's where sub testing comes in handy: to separate the truth from exaggeration. Personally, I'd expect it to perform quite similarly to the Funk 18.0 given the comparable displacement and amplification, which is very much apples and oranges with the PB13.
You might want to contact Doug, (council), to verify this, but I'm pretty sure he meant that FOUR Submersives have 8 dB more output than FOUR Ultra's, which a much less unbelievable claim than a 1 to 1 comparison.

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Old 07-10-2013, 08:36 AM
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How many times have we seen subjective opinion come up without backing up our opinions with facts, measurements or figures? Testing does give us a good idea to a degree what a subs capabilities are within certain perimeters. No that’s not to say it gives us the whole picture/0-60, but it’s always been a very important factor for inquiring minds. A sub with the reputation as the SubM is due for the bench considering how long it’s been out imo. I have no doubt that the SubM would fare well and is a good quality product, but none the same, the bench would be very interesting as it always is pertaining to ones total informed conclusion of said product. I have and would have the same attitude towards other subs, so this in no way shape or form is directed exclusively towards the SubM.

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Old 07-10-2013, 08:53 AM
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Craigjohn,
Those are your subs being sold here? Why you selling?

I still feel that all sub should be tested just for a nice data-bass! Should the numbers alone be what makes your decision, of course not. My sub system has less displacement than many before it but feels and sounds the best of them all. Go figure! If an empik empire measures higher at 20hz is it better? Maybe to a couple people but not te majority. Besides everyone is different, what makes a sub better than another?

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Old 07-10-2013, 08:53 AM
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Oh, my current system does measure better in my room in response and spl.

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Old 07-10-2013, 09:06 AM
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Craigjohn,
Those are your subs being sold here? Why you selling?
No, I'm not selling my subs. You misunderstood what I was saying.
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I still feel that all sub should be tested just for a nice data-bass! Should the numbers alone be what makes your decision, of course not. My sub system has less displacement than many before it but feels and sounds the best of them all. Go figure! If an empik empire measures higher at 20hz is it better? Maybe to a couple people but not te majority. Besides everyone is different, what makes a sub better than another?
I too would like to see the testing performed. It would add a very useful data point to the Data-Bass. Nonetheless, I am willing to wait for it to happen on Mark's timetable.

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Old 07-10-2013, 10:05 AM
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What is this? Days of our subwoofers? rolleyes.gif

A few things...Mark knows how to contact me as do most of the other ID manufacturers. I would much rather deal with the manufacturer than an end consumer and I'm sure most manufacturer's would feel the same. This is not a job or business for me currently. It is a hobby that I started in order to collect information and knowledge for myself which quickly turned into publicly sharing the information because, why not. It is a large loss of money and personal time. I can only test maybe 15 units in a year. That is all I can possibly make time for. I have turned down quite a few things because I have too much on my plate already. If I didn't have another system come through the door I would have enough tests of just my personal DIY things to last another 2 years. Truthfully I am much more interested in raw driver tests and DIY type endeavors than most commercial units. With a limited amount of resources (time) available I typically only accept units that either interest me enough or that pay. Simple as that. That is why I accepted the VTF15H. There had been so much controversy over it I was interested to see what actually comes out in the wash. That said I am starting to regret having accepted it. I should have at least contacted HSU about possibly sending one first. That was a mistake on my part. The reason that I do not typically contact anyone and ask for units is because that is just creating more work for myself. I just don't need to really.

I would like to agree with Mark and a few others that while CEA-2010 output data is important it is only one limited metric and it does not give the whole picture. While IMHO the headroom limits of a system are one of the key indicators of performance since it typically gives information about how well the system tracks large dynamic transients, how deep the useful extension is, response shape when driven to the limit, etc...There is far more to a good system design than putting up big numbers. For example CEA-2010 is supposed to be maximum clean output but in fact a lot of systems sound obviously distressed or even bad while still passing CEA-2010 due to mechanical noises, rattles, port noise etc. IOW I would not call them clean by any means. Other systems will fail a frequency band because of a slight amount of harmonic distortion in the final bandwidth amounting to only a few % and still sounding perfectly acceptable to the ear. CEA-2010 is not perfect. It is not a guarantee of acceptable sound at the levels measured. 2 units may have similar distortion levels and output but one may sound far cleaner to the ear. Also do not make the mistake of thinking that the CEA-2010 output is the maximum output. Sometimes it is sometimes it is not. Typically at 40Hz and above it will be maximum output or close but in the deep bass especially it may not be. Some systems will easily put out an additional 6dB over the CEA-2010 measurements due to the distortion profile. I typically try to list these absolute maximum output levels as well in the individual CEA-2010 chart for each system. This is just the CEA-2010 test. Each of the other measurements also have things that they can and cannot tell you about the system. There is far more to a good sub than just putting up big CEA-2010 burst numbers. Besides the other measurements there are also all of the intangibles like customer service, finishing, build quality, warranty period, price and aspects of the sound that may not show up in the typical measurements. For example SVS subs do not usually have the highest CEA-2010 output in their price class but there is a level of quality control and overall integration to them that is above and beyond most. Most of them simply will not make overtly bad noises even during CEA-2010 output testing. On the other hand a LOT of other subs are not sounding too good when driven to the max during CEA-2010. Most of them in fact. They may be still passing CEA-2010 but you can't tell this stuff from looking at the measurements. SVS have their limiter and system protections down to a science. Their measurements are always good, the distortion is held down and the data on their products is very accurate. They also make good design decisions with most of their subs that make sense for the product niche IMO. Some units I have encountered made me scratch my head and wonder whether anyone verified the final design or knew what they were doing in the first place. But despite doing nearly everything else well...because the SVS units are not the absolute loudest subs on the block anymore they seem to often get dismissed around here.

One more thing...Guys like to speculate about possible CEA-2010 output of various subs. FYI...Sealed subs are never going to put up the big deep bass output numbers like higher order alignments. They are at a great disadvantage in the 2/3rds of an octave centered at tuning of the higher order cab. A simple vented sub can easily have greater than 12dB more output at tuning than the same driver in a sealed cab. It is simple physics, just look at all of the sealed sub data. I can't think of any commercial sealed subwoofer that will produce even 110dB at 20Hz in my test regimen. It takes a monumental amount of power and driver displacement. An SVS PB13-Ultra on the other hand can produce this level with just a single 13.5" driver and a 1000w amp while operating as a vented cab. Sealed systems offer better transient response, smaller sizes, predictable low end roll off and can offer useful response over a broader bandwidth. With a sealed system I consider output of 100dB or more at 20Hz substantial. You should never get too hung up on output over a narrow frequency range but should instead look for plenty of headroom over a broad bandwidth. Typical material is often broad bandwidth and complex not limited to a narrow frequency band. wink.gif
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:11 AM
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Couple thoughts fwtw...

1)I wouldn't give any conspiracy theories much traction in regards to Mark's overall "game plan" for reviews. We have declined quite a few offers to review our products for similar reasoning. The moving parts involved in these instances(trying to maintain a healthy balance of growth,customer service, inventory status, reviews/promotions, etc) are far beyond what most could imagine unless you have experience in the same type of small business environment. The idea that "more orders = always better" is simply not true for some business models. We MAY send Josh a Triax later this summer. But it depends on our ability to fulfill orders in a timely matter for the next few months. We already know what he'll measure so there's no real thrill for us in seeing it all re-measured. (when he measured the XV15 his output numbers were within a fraction of a dB of ours) But we do understand Josh is the *man* and some consumers will, understandably, be more comfortable comparing data from a third party like Josh.

2)When looking at objective data versus subjective impressions the better understanding of each----the more accurate/meaningful those correlations will be. We all know that output is a very important aspect of subwoofer performance. And it is easy/intuitive to look a a group of numbers and understand higher = better. So the 2010-CEA output probably gets more weight than it should. There are limitations of this measurement technique too. For example, the pass/fail trigger is harmonic based. So the subwoofer may be exhibiting grossly audible port noise, driver rattling, etc....and still "pass".


3)When something sounds better to most/all in a listening test there are reasons why. Those reasons can be measured of course but I would caution against assuming it will always circle back to the 2010-CEA max output data. And the worst thing you can do (imo) is take a single frequency and put much weight on it as some indicator of how something will sound comparatively. I get emails/calls fairly often that end up with a statement like this...."I mainly care about the deep bass so if the XS30 and XV15 are about the same in the 15-35hz range per 2010-CEA guidelines....I'll just save the money and go with the XV15 because they'll sound the same to me when I crank them up". There's a lot more to it than that..smile.gif

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Old 07-10-2013, 10:40 AM
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Unitl Mark Sends a sub for review to Josh Ricci..... no it will not be. I can't even find a + - 3 dB point for the submversive on Marks sight. Further there has been no CEA 2010 measurements or anything else to indicate performance so no. A benchmark must have a measured mark to compare to and The Seaton Submersive has none. Its the same thing for all JTR products no measurements. I'm sure they great subs but I won't call them a benchmark until there is way to hold them up to other subs via measurement.

For example the reason the SVS PB Ultra 13 sub was and is a benchmark is it was measured and tested thoroughly and could be compared to other subs with CEA 2010 measurement data.

I have heard a SVS PB Ultra 13 and a Seaton Submersive in the same room, same spot and the Seaton sub was clearly the better sub. We did measure and confirm levels for both subs but it really wasn't close, much better bass throughout the bass range with the SubM and more impact.

I don't own either sub as I prefer DIY but the Submersive would probably be what I would buy if I went back to commercial subs.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:12 AM
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There is a certain redundancy to some of the posts that appear to distort the issue at hand. Benchmarking. Can it be subjective and if so what is the point of AVScience if we can't have a sub tested to show it's abilities.

Redundancies.

Focus on a given frequency.....frenquency range vs a given frequency
Output.....what is the point if it produces x dbs if there is unacceptable distortion
Will Submersive be tested....Mark already stated that he will submit a stock sub for testing when he gets to it and not the one he takes to the local meets.
Numbers don't tell everything.....yes. Environments influence performance but a benchmark is a nice place to start

We are not as knowledgeable as most of you folks. We may be just a notch above stupid but that is enough to create pause. We are just trying to understand the hypocrisy/double standard from folks who now say subjective impressions should suffice. Am I to believe that such published tests contribute nothing to the improvement in designs via capitalism and consequently consumer choices?
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