Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub?
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 04:15 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I did, but someone wants to try and make up for embarrassing himself on the Funk thread.

LOL

basshead81's Avatar basshead81 04:23 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I thought he meant from that particular list.

Anyways, it is hard to compare ported to sealed because of course the ported will win an spl contest at tune but it takes more than just the tuning area to be great. I don't even consider 20hz to be a low tune anyways. BTW, the SVS has a 20hz tune and 15hz tune and the Rythmik sub is tuned at 18hz and 12hz, not the same. So the results will show why the Rythmik is better at 12hz, this is it's tune! I have always said when comparing a sealed sub to a ported sub try matching the spl capabilities at the ported subs tune and I bet the sealed wins! Of course this takes more sealed subs to do this or pick a ported sub that has the same spl output at tune as a sealed sub to be fair. You can't compare a 110 dBs at 20hz ported sub against a 100 dBs at 20hz sealed sub as that extra 10dBs will always have the advantage during that material. Play something in the realm of the sealed sub advantage and now it is better. SPL is a major sound contributor along with sensitivity for dynamics.

The rythmik is better all around than the ultra...I am not comparing the subm, were talking about subs that have been measured by ricci and audioholics...atleast I am. Steve said the ultra owns all from 16-25hz which is a stupid statement and why would you compare such a narrow frequency. The bottom line is the Rythmik FV15HP owns all subs less than 2k. Steve randomly jumps into threads nit picking my posts at times, so I gave him a taste of his own medicine...its obvious by his last post.
Steve1981's Avatar Steve1981 04:26 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I am not comparing the subm, were talking about subs that have been measured by ricci and audioholics...atleast I am.
I'm pretty sure you're the only one, and you'd know that if you had bothered to actually read this thread instead of trying to jump in and blindly attempt to prove me wrong. rolleyes.gif

I will offer you some congratulations though. You've made it to my ignore list!!! Bravo smile.gif
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 04:30 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

I'm pretty sure you're the only one, and you'd know that if you had bothered to actually read this thread instead of trying to jump in and blindly attempt to prove me wrong. rolleyes.gif

I will offer you some congratulations though. You've made it to my ignore list!!! Bravo smile.gif

I read the entire thread and posted on topic initially until you came in with your typical ********.
steve nn's Avatar steve nn 04:31 PM 07-09-2013

jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 04:31 PM 07-09-2013
Now now boys, lets keep things civil. smile.gif
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 04:32 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post


Haha awesome! That cracks me up every time I see it! tongue.gif
steve nn's Avatar steve nn 04:35 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Haha awesome! That cracks me up every time I see it! tongue.gif

I thought a little humor was called for biggrin.gif Since I have no advice or can’t be constructive, I might as well be a ham. smile.gif
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 04:55 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I thought a little humor was called for biggrin.gif Since I have no advice or can’t be constructive, I might as well be a ham. smile.gif

It works good for you Steve wink.gif
craig john's Avatar craig john 05:00 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangers View Post

I am glad I started this thread and glad that Mark took it as a compliment. The responses have confirmed, to me, that the Seaton SubMersive is a benchmark sub.

I am still researching my sub/subs purchase and the SubMersive is certainly in the running. The independent testing debate doesn't sway my decision either way. There are so many happy Seaton sub owners, from a performance standpoint particularly,
and people that have given it glowing reviews after hearing it, and that takes precedence with me.

Having said that, at this price point there are a few other subs I am considering. JTR Caps, PSA (the Triax especially looks killer), dual Rythmik FV15HPs and maybe the Funk 18.0.

I'll compare them to the SubMersive, lol!
Good luck with your search, but watch out for little girls tryin' ta kick ya in da nuts. They're all over this forum. biggrin.gif

Craig
steve nn's Avatar steve nn 05:17 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Good luck with your search, but watch out for little girls tryin' ta kick ya in da nuts. They're all over this forum. biggrin.gif


There has been way to much of it going around lately. That little girl grew up and she is still at it.. such a bad habit.


MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 08:03 PM 07-09-2013
Actually the Chase VS 18.1 is better from 20hz and above for $1000.
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 08:16 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Actually the Chase VS 18.1 is better from 20hz and above for $1000.

coming from the guy that only cares about extension down to 3hz.

oh and its 1240.00 delivered with the dayton amp, which the FV15HP would have it beat. Its 1490.00 delivered with the sub1 amp and the FV15HP would still have it beat in max output mode. The question is what amp would it take to get the passive numbers?
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 09:04 PM 07-09-2013
It would take a $300 behringer amp. I would not buy those amps with a passive sub. Yes I care about 3 hz and why I don't own either. I would rather have the SS 18.2, XS-30, Submersive, cap S2 etc.. Of course I would be multiples of each to make everything matter. Oh and to stay on topic the Submersive should be tested too. Why not! I should buy that used one and send it in but then I would get blasted. I don't see why an end user can't test their own subs.
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 09:32 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It would take a $300 behringer amp. I would not buy those amps with a passive sub. Yes I care about 3 hz and why I don't own either. I would rather have the SS 18.2, XS-30, Submersive, cap S2 etc.. Of course I would be multiples of each to make everything matter. Oh and to stay on topic the Submersive should be tested too. Why not! I should buy that used one and send it in but then I would get blasted. I don't see why an end user can't test their own subs.

I talked to craig about this a couple weeks ago when I was looking at that sub. He said it would take a really powerful amp. smile.gif (however I would think the ep4000 would suffice).

I agree multiple sealed subs is the way for deep extension...however that is not feasible in most folks ht rooms. That being said, the FV15HP offers the deepest extension with the most output than any ported sub under 2k. However I only brought this up because of steve's initial post about the ultra.

Now to get back on topic, I have had my eye on the used submersive aswell and thought about the same thing as you. back to my original post, I plan on starting a poll thread on which sub to target for testing next. Thats of course if Josh is willing. My apologies for derailing the thread, but there was a reason for it. Now I am happily smile.gif on Steve's ignore list, so this should not happen again.

Cheers!
Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 10:28 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Josh Ricci is respected for his testing methodology, his accuracy and his consistency. That respect should not be subject to the whims of company owners or consumers-at-large.

No-one seems to think that his up-coming testing of the HSU VTF-15H he was recently sent by an owner - because HSU hasn't sent / won't send him one - will affect his reputation. The reason he was sent a VTF-15H is precisely because of his reputation. As long as he remains consistent in his testing, his reputation will, rightly, remain intact.

I don't see how / why testing an owner's SubMersive would be any different.
+1. Buying a $2k plus sub unheard/unseen is hard without any test from Ricci. I am not sure if I am willing to do that. I give lots of credit to those who offer sending sub to Ricci for testing (VTF15H). If more subs can be tested by Ricci, we will have one central data bass to compare all ID subs which helps lots of folks here making their decision a lot easier. I understand that Mark does not want Craig to send in his sub but to me, it is my sub and I can do whatever I want with it if Josh agrees to test my sub.
Follz20's Avatar Follz20 11:15 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

+1. Buying a $2k plus sub unheard/unseen is hard without any test from Ricci. I am not sure if I am willing to do that. I give lots of credit to those who offer sending sub to Ricci for testing (VTF15H). If more subs can be tested by Ricci, we will have one central data bass to compare all ID subs which helps lots of folks here making their decision a lot easier. I understand that Mark does not want Craig to send in his sub but to me, it is my sub and I can do whatever I want with it if Josh agrees to test my sub.

I would agree with you if the SubM HP was a recently released subwoofer from a newly formed company but that simply isn't the case, is it? It is a subwoofer that has been around since 2006 being sold from a reputable seller in Seaton Sound, has been subjectively compared at more than half-a-dozen GTG's very favourably against known (SPL) heavy hitters, yet you still think people should be apprehensive about buying it sight unseen because D-B have yet to measure it? Odd, considering the vast majority of ID subwoofers have yet to be tested by D-B and again the vast majority are bought unheard/unseen as well.

I've been saying for a while now that looking at a spreadsheet with max SPL figures simply doesn't give you the full picture of a subwoofers performance vs another. Almost no one could notice a 1-2dB difference at any frequency yet it doesn't stop people declaring one subwoofer better than another because of such a 'difference'. If all you did was play sine waves all day, then such numbers would tell you all you needed to know. If, however, you play real-world material where, as Mark was saying, multiple frequencies are played all at once, all of a sudden a subjective difference can be heard between such evenly matched (SPL-wise) subs. It seems people are skeptical that a SubM could best a PB13-U, once again ignoring that real-world material demands a sub play a multitude of signals across the spectrum all at once (as opposed to a linear, progressive sweep) where the SubM's design is highly efficient in the upper frequencies, which could account for the subjective differences... but would not be seen on max SPL chart.

It should go without saying that a test by D-B won't change any SubMersive owners' opinion about their subwoofer... excluding perhaps the placebo effect. Mark has given his reasons multiple times, and again on this thread, about why he considered third-party measurements a lower-priority, which incidentally is no different to PSA's response to the same question, so I don't understand what the fuss is all about.
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 11:39 PM 07-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

I would agree with you if the SubM HP was a recently released subwoofer from a newly formed company but that simply isn't the case, is it? It is a subwoofer that has been around since 2006 being sold from a reputable seller in Seaton Sound, has been subjectively compared at more than half-a-dozen GTG's very favourably against known (SPL) heavy hitters, yet you still think people should be apprehensive about buying it sight unseen because D-B have yet to measure it? Odd, considering the vast majority of ID subwoofers have yet to be tested by D-B and again the vast majority are bought unheard/unseen as well.

I've been saying for a while now that looking at a spreadsheet with max SPL figures simply doesn't give you the full picture of a subwoofers performance vs another. Almost no one could notice a 1-2dB difference at any frequency yet it doesn't stop people declaring one subwoofer better than another because of such a 'difference'. If all you did was play sine waves all day, then such numbers would tell you all you needed to know. If, however, you play real-world material where, as Mark was saying, multiple frequencies are played all at once, all of a sudden a subjective difference can be heard between such evenly matched (SPL-wise) subs. It seems people are skeptical that a SubM could best a PB13-U, once again ignoring that real-world material demands a sub play a multitude of signals across the spectrum all at once (as opposed to a linear, progressive sweep) where the SubM's design is highly efficient in the upper frequencies, which could account for the subjective differences... but would not be seen on max SPL chart.

It should go without saying that a test by D-B won't change any SubMersive owners' opinion about their subwoofer... excluding perhaps the placebo effect. Mark has given his reasons multiple times, and again on this thread, about why he considered third-party measurements a lower-priority, which incidentally is no different to PSA's response to the same question, so I don't understand what the fuss is all about.

I honestly don't see why it matters that the SubM HP has been around since 2006 as a reason not to test it. I can respect the fact that Mark doesn't want it tested but something to keep in mind is that he has more to lose then he does to gain by having it tested.

I know from reading all the GTG threads that its a solid performer, but lets just say that it didn't test well what then?

I'm also not suggesting it would test bad, I really do like the SubM HP. Heck I own a very similar designed sub. I'm just playing devils advocate and saying "what if", and that's what I could see being a possible reason for Mark not wanting it tested.
Follz20's Avatar Follz20 12:18 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I honestly don't see why it matters that the SubM HP has been around since 2006 as a reason not to test it. I can respect the fact that Mark doesn't want it tested but something to keep in mind is that he has more to lose then he does to gain by having it tested.

I know from reading all the GTG threads that its a solid performer, but lets just say that it didn't test well what then?

I'm also not suggesting it would test bad, I really do like the SubM HP. Heck I own a very similar designed sub. I'm just playing devils advocate and saying "what if", and that's what I could see being a possible reason for Mark not wanting it tested.

Re-read what I said. I was not using the fact that it has been around is 06' as a reason not to test it, merely that it is a well established sub that won its reputation through owner reviews, GTGs and a number of other reasons. Cowboys expressed reservations about 'buying a $2k plus sub unheard/unseen is hard without any test from Ricci' to which I expressed disbelief in such reasoning considering that these boards talk of little else outside of ID brands of which, to repeat, the vast majority of buyers buy their chosen sub unheard and unseen based off, erm... owner reviews, GTG results etc...

It would seem very unlikely to me that the SubM would perform well at GTGs but perform poorly in objective testing... they seem like mutually exclusive 'what ifs' for mine. Secondly, even if it did test badly, does that mean the owners who have compared the SubM with other well-established, third-party tested subs out there and preferred the former are mistaken somehow, or have poor hearing perhaps? Would that also take away the subjective results at the GTGs, rendering them incorrect? I don't know, you tell me.

Lastly, the SubM is still the sum of its parts so some assumptions can still be made about its performance and limitations. The mentality that SPL numbers is all that matters is tiring, shortsighted and says nothing about other aspects of a subwoofer's design that most consider important (and no, I'm not simply talking about form-factor/aesthetics so much as function).
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 12:49 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post


Lastly, the SubM is still the sum of its parts so some assumptions can still be made about its performance and limitations. The mentality that SPL numbers is all that matters is tiring, shortsighted and says nothing about other aspects of a subwoofer's design that most consider important (and no, I'm not simply talking about form-factor/aesthetics so much as function).

Yet testing still holds merit no matter how you look at it. Otherwise why test any subs at all, look I think really all some of us were trying to accomplish is to have one central place such as data-bass.com where a potential buyer could go take a look at subs they would be interested in buying. Josh Ricci is very well respected for the work he does and has shown to more then capable of conducting proper testing.

Mark doesn't want a SubM HP tested that's his call, I personally think its a shame he doesn't but whatever. Also PSA's response to the same question wasn't the same answer as Mark's, Tom wasn't in any hurry to have a XS30 tested because it was just released and they couldn't keep them on the shelf, every one that was build was sold. He never said he wouldn't have one tested. You're comparing a sub that's been out for 6 months to a sub that's been around for over 6 years.
Follz20's Avatar Follz20 01:15 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Yet testing still holds merit no matter how you look at it. Otherwise why test any subs at all, look I think really all some of us were trying to accomplish is to have one central place such as data-bass.com where a potential buyer could go take a look at subs they would be interested in buying. Josh Ricci is very well respected for the work he does and has shown to more then capable of conducting proper testing.

Mark doesn't want a SubM HP tested that's his call, I personally think its a shame he doesn't but whatever. Also PSA's response to the same question wasn't the same answer as Mark's, Tom wasn't in any hurry to have a XS30 tested because it was just released and they couldn't keep them on the shelf, every one that was build was sold. He never said he wouldn't have one tested. You're comparing a sub that's been out for 6 months to a sub that's been around for over 6 years.

Please just read my posts next time and stop reading into them... it would make all of this a lot easier.

All I have asserted is that testing cannot tell you all there is to know about a subwoofer. I don't know how you take that to read 'objective testing is useless/worthless/unnecessary'. I really don't.

I'm also not really sure how Josh Ricci's veracity/integrity/competency comes into this discussion, either.

Secondly, you either haven't read this thread all the way through or are trying to stir dirt for some reason, but Mark has already stated the following in this thread:
Quote:
As I said above, I'll be contacting Josh about measurements once the website is up

He said the same thing months ago on his forum.

Lastly, Mark's original reason for not sending the SubM off for testing was exactly the same as PSA's: he 'couldn't keep them on the shelf' and there was simply no need to go to the trouble of getting a unit tested when the demand was continually high. So yes, Mark's reasons were the same as PSA's originally and his reasons have only changed in the recent past when he made it a priority to get the website up before he would send a unit to Josh to test.
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 01:30 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

Please just read my posts next time and stop reading into them... it would make all of this a lot easier.

All I have asserted is that testing cannot tell you all there is to know about a subwoofer. I don't know how you take that to read 'objective testing is useless/worthless/unnecessary'. I really don't.

I'm also not really sure how Josh Ricci's veracity/integrity/competency comes into this discussion, either.

Secondly, you either haven't read this thread all the way through or are trying to stir dirt for some reason, but Mark has already stated the following in this thread:
He said the same thing months ago on his forum.

Lastly, Mark's original reason for not sending the SubM off for testing was exactly the same as PSA's: he 'couldn't keep them on the shelf' and there was simply no need to go to the trouble of getting a unit tested when the demand was continually high. So yes, Mark's reasons were the same as PSA's originally and his reasons have only changed in the recent past when he made it a priority to get the website up before he would send a unit to Josh to test.

I am most certainly not trying to stir the pot, I've said all along that I'm a big fan of Mark and his products and that he makes top quality stuff. I've just said all along that it sucks he doesn't want the SubM HP tested, or "at this moment". Honestly though at this rate it could still be at least a year before he even considers getting one tested. Which again is his call, it's his business. It still sucks (and I only mean that in a curious to know kind of way) because I'd really like to see what it's measured capabilities really are.

And your responses are pretty much what I would expect from a SubM HP owner, and I don't mean that in a bad way. cool.gif
steve nn's Avatar steve nn 05:46 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I am most certainly not trying to stir the pot, I've said all along that I'm a big fan of Mark and his products and that he makes top quality stuff. I've just said all along that it sucks he doesn't want the SubM HP tested, or "at this moment". Honestly though at this rate it could still be at least a year before he even considers getting one tested. Which again is his call, it's his business. It still sucks (and I only mean that in a curious to know kind of way) because I'd really like to see what it's measured capabilities really are.

And your responses are pretty much what I would expect from a SubM HP owner, and I don't mean that in a bad way. cool.gif

How many times have we seen subjective opinion come up without backing up our opinions with facts, measurements or figures? Testing does give us a good idea to a degree what a subs capabilities are within certain perimeters. No that’s not to say it gives us the whole picture/0-60, but it’s always been a very important factor for inquiring minds. A sub with the reputation as the SubM is due for the bench considering how long it’s been out imo. I have no doubt that the SubM would fare well and is a good quality product, but none the same, the bench would be very interesting as it always is pertaining to ones total informed conclusion of said product. I have and would have the same attitude towards other subs, so this in no way shape or form is directed exclusively towards the SubM.
Steve1981's Avatar Steve1981 06:04 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

It seems people are skeptical that a SubM could best a PB13-U, once again ignoring that real-world material demands a sub play a multitude of signals across the spectrum all at once (as opposed to a linear, progressive sweep) where the SubM's design is highly efficient in the upper frequencies, which could account for the subjective differences... but would not be seen on max SPL chart.

I'm not skeptical that under a variety of circumstances/program material, the SubM could best the PB13; I am skeptical of claims such as the one I commented on re: an 8+dB advantage over the entire spectrum. That's where sub testing comes in handy: to separate the truth from exaggeration. Personally, I'd expect it to perform quite similarly to the Funk 18.0 given the comparable displacement and amplification, which is very much apples and oranges with the PB13.

Of course at this point, I can also understand Mark's concerns. As has been mentioned several times now, he doesn't have the infrastructure needed to deal with a spike in business that may occur from a review. Having no website or automated storefront assuredly complicates things from a business perspective.
countryWV's Avatar countryWV 06:19 AM 07-10-2013
Josh Ricci is not going to test any sub unless the manufacture or designer (Mark Seaton) asks him to do it. It is a matter of mutual Respect. Anyone who wants to conduct their own measurements or tests is welcome. SubMersive owners have been doing this and posting results for years. The conflict seems that only Riccis test would be accepted and he is not going to do it till Mark asks him to.
This can be confirmed if someone would just ask Josh.
I know my opinion is not worth 2 cents but here it is. The SubMersive HP is an awesome Home Theater Subwoofer solution. In Lieu of measurements first hand experience through GTGs and owner reviews of over 1 year can still lead to an educated decision. The SubMersive HP holds its resale value so well that it is little to no risk in giving it a try.
Anyone who is actually interested in purchasing on can find a plethora of good information on this AVS forum or just call Mark.
If this discussion can go back to "What is" instead of "What if" there will be less Ball Busting.smile.gif My stomach is a little queezy from those pictures..
Not quite but almost 2 cents
Chris
eljaycanuck's Avatar eljaycanuck 06:27 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV 
Josh Ricci is not going to test any sub unless the manufacture or designer (Mark Seaton) asks him to do it. It is a matter of mutual Respect.
Josh has agreed to test an HSU VTF-15H sent to him by the sub's owner. No surprise: He is in the business of testing subwoofers, and doing so in an accurate and reputable manner.

But according to your assertion, the fact that he is testing an owner's VTF-15H means that he does not respect HSU. I disagree.

Accurately and reputably testing a product has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting a person, a company or a product.
countryWV's Avatar countryWV 06:33 AM 07-10-2013
Mutual respect between Mark and Josh who have been in direct contact with each other and are working on getting it scheduled in for a test.
I am trying to be simple not controversial. This discussion has been going on for years and always ends with the same results.
Chris
steve nn's Avatar steve nn 06:43 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Josh Ricci is not going to test any sub unless the manufacture or designer (Mark Seaton) asks him to do it. It is a matter of mutual Respect. Anyone who wants to conduct their own measurements or tests is welcome. SubMersive owners have been doing this and posting results for years. The conflict seems that only Riccis test would be accepted and he is not going to do it till Mark asks him to.
This can be confirmed if someone would just ask Josh.
I know my opinion is not worth 2 cents but here it is. The SubMersive HP is an awesome Home Theater Subwoofer solution. In Lieu of measurements first hand experience through GTGs and owner reviews of over 1 year can still lead to an educated decision. The SubMersive HP holds its resale value so well that it is little to no risk in giving it a try.
Anyone who is actually interested in purchasing on can find a plethora of good information on this AVS forum or just call Mark.
If this discussion can go back to "What is" instead of "What if" there will be less Ball Busting.smile.gif My stomach is a little queezy from those pictures..
Not quite but almost 2 cents
Chris

Well said and communicated and thus a reputation is born. This is a very good reason why imo the SubM is due for the bench.. just sayin

Make note to self> Go easy on the Ball busting pics. smile.gif
countryWV's Avatar countryWV 06:52 AM 07-10-2013
[quote name="eljaycanuck" url="/t/1480773/is-the-seaton-submersive-hp-the-benchmark-sub/90#post_23513554"

Accurately and reputably testing a product has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting a person, a company or a product.[/quote]


The point I was trying to make is that sense they are already in talks it would be perceived to be a behind the back or underhanded move to test the SubM without telling Mark straight to his face.
I may be wrong but a simple call to Josh would be the smart move.
Chris
gtpsuper24's Avatar gtpsuper24 07:06 AM 07-10-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I honestly don't see why it matters that the SubM HP has been around since 2006 as a reason not to test it. I can respect the fact that Mark doesn't want it tested but something to keep in mind is that he has more to lose then he does to gain by having it tested.

I know from reading all the GTG threads that its a solid performer, but lets just say that it didn't test well what then?

I'm also not suggesting it would test bad, I really do like the SubM HP. Heck I own a very similar designed sub. I'm just playing devils advocate and saying "what if", and that's what I could see being a possible reason for Mark not wanting it tested.

Its not the amount of time the subwoofer has been out. I believe Mark shares a similar opinion as Jon Lane from Arx. They don't want their products to be "bench raced" on the forums using just numbers on a spread sheet gain from a laboratory test. But instead using actual real world listening with your own ears, using not sine waves but music and actual content..

Measurements and testing is all well and good and I actually visit Josh's site regularly. But at the end of the day those measurements only give you a small snap shot of the subwoofer/speakers performance that no real world listening can replace. There also the fact that many can and do misinterpete the measurements for good or bad or blow them way out of proportion.
Tags: Seaton Sound Submersive H P , Svs Pb13 Ultra
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