Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 05:32 AM
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I have been a SubMersive owner since June 2007. Back then I was part of this forum and I noticed Mark posted a lot. I was also reading how many people were really into big bass as it was becoming popular. Velodyne, among others were the big players back then. But they were very expensive for me. Also, I think that's when JL may have just started to come out with their sub but I may be wrong with the timing of that. So, back then I wanted to up my game in the sub arena but did not know how to do it. Then I started hearing about and reading about the SubMersive. I stated to read the dedicated SubMersive thread and asking people questions. I even asked Ed M. his advice. This was before he stated at SVS. He told me point blank, if I were looking for a sub to go in a small sealed room, the SubMersive was the way to go. End of story. So, I started to converse with Mark. Now remember, this is back in 2007 and there wasn't even a forum up for his stuff yet. But because it was in the beginning, I think Mark had more time. So I took a chance and I gave him a PM. He came back with an outstanding reply. That set off more questions. He sent me info and a description of his sub. After talking with him for a while I decided that I would go for it. Without a website or any other reason. Just based on my conversations with him, the info he gave me, and the fact that I felt he his character was good. So here I am now, 6 years later(HP upgrade) and the sub I bought back then, with no website to back it up is still a benchmark.

Let me just add this about benchmark subs. For me, it was the JM Lab Sub Utopia Be. That was the most amazing sub I have ever heard. I would listen to that sub every weekend at this store I used to go to. I never experienced a sub like that before. It was so powerful and just jaw dropping good. Now this sub was tested, but it was tested I think incorrectly a number of years ago on AVtalk. I say incorrectly because it was a ported sub and they did not take that into consideration when they tested it. Yet, this single 16in driver, in a ported box had some of the highest output of any sub tested over there if my memory is correct. Plus, as I said, when I heard it in a room, it instantly became my standard. The SubMersive, is in my mind as good SQ wiseand probably plays lower and maybe even louder then that sub did. And that sub was 3X the cost of my SubMersive when I bought it. So the SubMersive then became MY bench mark to which I would measure all other subs whether it was measured or not.

I understand people want the website up. Hell, even I want it up. But in reality, you can find all you need on Marks forum site. There he has the products that are available and a description about them. Plus, as it has already been mentioned, there are plenty of tests that are listed on this site where you can read reviews of the sub. It seems to me that if I compare Marks forum site to let's say, the JTR speaker site, the main difference is that on the JTR site you can see pics and on some of the product descriptions there is a max SPL output number given. But I would not call the JTR website "pretty" like a JL or Velodyne website. It is functional. That is what I think Mark's site is. It may be one level below that in some people's eyes but in the end, does that really matter? I do think it would be cool and beneficial to just have a picture of each product with the color of the available finishes though. But even those can be found, albeit with some effort on the users part. I did not need any third party testing to convince me that this was the sub for me. Just talking with the man was good enough. And I don't need any third part testing to tell me I made a great choice. Now Every time I listen to it I made a great choice. But since I really can't let loose in my room, I would be lying if I said I wan't curious to see what this things limits are biggrin.gif. But not knowing it's limits does not take away from my enjoyment of it. All I know is that if you do some major digging on Mark's forum, you can find people with 4000, 5000, and even 6000cf who have posted about having a single non HP SubMersive in their room and the results they got. I guess I have said enough. I hope my story has not offended anybody somehow.
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post #182 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 07:13 AM
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Personally a sealed sub would never be my benchmark.
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post #183 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 07:57 AM
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To answer the original question as to whether the Seaton SubMersive HP is a Benchmark Sub. I will simply say it doesn't suck wink.gif
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post #184 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The doubting Thomas stance is sort of like saying a Ferrari Enzo isn't any better than an American pony car until Top Gear puts up specific track numbers to prove it.

That would make Josh Ricci the Stig of subwoofers I guess.

It doesn't take The Stig to let us know that a Ferrari beats a Mustang. But amongst higher offerings, having The Stig test all cars using a consistent methodology is a very helpful way to compare them indeed. There is tremendous value in that in my opinion.
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post #185 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 09:24 AM
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I have to say that yes the SubM HP is probably one of the top subs but honestly how can it be the "bench mark" without confirmed third party measurements?
That would be the same as someone saying a particular super car is the bench mark without knowing what it's 0-60, or 1/4 mile time is, or 100-0 or 0-100-0 times or lateral G's in the skid pad or slalom time would be.

I agree that it's probably one of the finest subs made under 5grand but I just don't think he could be called the "bench mark" until there's numbers to back that statement up IMO.
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post #186 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 09:38 AM
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However we want to refer to the SubM it sure seems to make a lot of peoples Short List. Benchmark subwoofer or not it is compared to more than any other subwoofer (costing at least 2 grand) on the AVS forum.
I guess the question is If not the Submersive, realistically priced What subwoofer is? We may need to have an agreed upon definition of the term BenchMark Subwoofer to figure it out.
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post #187 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I have to say that yes the SubM HP is probably one of the top subs but honestly how can it be the "bench mark" without confirmed third party measurements?
That would be the same as someone saying a particular super car is the bench mark without knowing what it's 0-60, or 1/4 mile time is, or 100-0 or 0-100-0 times or lateral G's in the skid pad or slalom time would be.

I agree that it's probably one of the finest subs made under 5grand but I just don't think he could be called the "bench mark" until there's numbers to back that statement up IMO.

Exactly!
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post #188 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

However we want to refer to the SubM it sure seems to make a lot of peoples Short List. Benchmark subwoofer or not it is compared to more than any other subwoofer (costing at least 2 grand) on the AVS forum.
I guess the question is If not the Submersive, realistically priced What subwoofer is? We may need to have an agreed upon definition of the term BenchMark Subwoofer to figure it out.
Chris

Well, we have to keep it sealed to begin with. I would think the benchmark would be the Sub2 until the CapS2 and submersive gets tested.
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post #189 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, we have to keep it sealed to begin with. I would think the benchmark would be the Sub2 until the CapS2 and submersive gets tested.

agreed, I'm hoping Tom and Jim send Josh a Triax later this summer... should make things interesting.

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post #190 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 10:26 AM
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We may need to have an agreed upon definition of the term BenchMark Subwoofer to figure it out.

This.

However it is unlikely to happen since everyone has different tastes and experiences with different subs under different circumstances. Preference plays a huge role in this and I don't believe there can ever be a universal benchmark sub unless all you are talking about are measured numbers.

Databass is a good example of a numbers benchmark for comparing different subs (assuming one fully understands what they are reading), which should be the benchmark sub to compare against is a matter of opinion again.

What traits should be considered and if all of them which should be the most important? Price,Size,Popularity,Burst output,Long term output,Distortion levels,Time domain behavior,Frequency response,Compression.

There are too many ways to look at it and each would yield its own "benchmark" sub and many of these attributes would vary over frequency so which frequency range do you emphasize? Everyone would insist their criteria is the right one when honestly there isn't a right or wrong answer, it is all about one's constraints and application and preferences. It is a balancing act, always has been, always will be.
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post #191 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 10:35 AM
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Excellent post. ^^^
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post #192 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

That would make Josh Ricci the Stig of subwoofers I guess.

It doesn't take The Stig to let us know that a Ferrari beats a Mustang. But amongst higher offerings, having The Stig test all cars using a consistent methodology is a very helpful way to compare them indeed. There is tremendous value in that in my opinion.
^^+1 That would be like Ed doing a review and measurements on a popular SW and most of us just passing by the link.. nope not interested. Now is that realistic? rolleyes.gif
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post #193 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 11:18 AM
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Ken Kresiel's new DXD12012's where recently installed at Dolby theater in Hollywood for the Oscars and have largely played a role in many reference mixes under the M&K banner , the new DXD12012 is a new beast entirely and set a record at "Secrets" on its distortion measurements http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers/subwoofers-reviews/ken-kreisel-dxd-12012-dual-12-push-pull-subwoofer/page-4-on-the-bench.html
if price is not an issue on the criteria, as its designed as subwoofer system and now that someone has mentioned the Sub 2 which would be a solid contender as well as the Seaton ,but at the price 11k and as a whole I'd put a Quattro on Ken's sub at the top of my list for benchmark sub and even two would more than get the job done.
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post #194 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ken Kresiel's new DXD12012's where recently installed at Dolby theater in Hollywood for the Oscars and have largely played a role in many reference mixes under the M&K banner , the new DXD12012 is a new beast entirely and set a record at "Secrets" on its distortion measurements http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers/subwoofers-reviews/ken-kreisel-dxd-12012-dual-12-push-pull-subwoofer/page-4-on-the-bench.html
if price is not an issue on the criteria, as its designed as subwoofer system and now that someone has mentioned the Sub 2 which would be a solid contender as well as the Seaton ,but at the price 11k and as a whole I'd put a Quattro on Ken's sub at the top of my list for benchmark sub and even two would more than get the job done.

I see you are a fan of your newly owned sub and I respect that. The installment of their subs in Dolby theater which is although quite something to talk about, is not at the main hall but the lounge. I don't understand why KK makes it so apparant in their ads without mentioning that.

There are some articles existing online including some measurement for the DXD12012, but to my amazement these do not look quite consistent. I guess that's why we crave for someone that could do in-depth bench tests of these known subs for fair comparison.
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post #195 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 01:26 PM
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It would take 4 of those KK subs to equal the one sub2 at 16hz so I am not sure where the savings will be.

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post #196 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 01:47 PM
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What's a sub2?

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post #197 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 01:52 PM
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What's a sub2?

http://www.paradigm.com/products/model=sub-2/page=overview

Paradigm's reference sub for their signature line.

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post #198 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 01:56 PM
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What's a sub2?


http://www.paradigm.com/products/model=sub-2/page=overview

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post #199 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ken Kresiel's new DXD12012's where recently installed at Dolby theater in Hollywood for the Oscars and have largely played a role in many reference mixes under the M&K banner , the new DXD12012 is a new beast entirely and set a record at "Secrets" on its distortion measurements http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers/subwoofers-reviews/ken-kreisel-dxd-12012-dual-12-push-pull-subwoofer/page-4-on-the-bench.html
if price is not an issue on the criteria, as its designed as subwoofer system and now that someone has mentioned the Sub 2 which would be a solid contender as well as the Seaton ,but at the price 11k and as a whole I'd put a Quattro on Ken's sub at the top of my list for benchmark sub and even two would more than get the job done.



If a FR that rolls off at 20Hz like the DXD12012 is what you're after, and you think 2 of those would "more than get the job done", I wonder what you'd think about the SVS PB13-Ultra which would roughly match the output of 4 of those for 1/6th the cost and taking up half the space.
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

http://www.paradigm.com/products/model=sub-2/page=overview

Paradigm's reference sub for their signature line.

Oh yes, I read the review on that at data-bass

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post #201 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:06 PM
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Oh yes, I read the review on that at data-bass

Really! smile.gif

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post #202 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:21 PM
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Really! smile.gif

Well maybe not, now I can't find it. Sometimes I'm up late on the iPad learning this stuff. I really thought it was there. I'll look when I get home. I can still see the pictures in my mind of it sitting in the field. Other pics with some drivers taken out to have a look inside. And more...

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post #203 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:21 PM
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I don't think it's a question of whether the SubM is a great sub or not. It clearly is, judging by the word-of-mouth praises it is getting. What I find weak in this whole debate, is the "reasoning" as to why one hasn't been tested by the established authority around here (data-bass). These reasons range from not wanting to offend Mark by sending a privately owned SubM to Mark being concerned that his company might grow so fast that QC and demand would be insurmountable issues--or something along those lines. Like I said before, if it were a start-up company, say a year or two, this argument might make sense depending on how you look at it. Having been around for more than six years, the same logic just doesn't apply anymore. What would be enough? eight years? twelve?. I don't mean to disrespect anyone but the reasons given for not wanting/having this Sub tested thus far, is just entirely weak.
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post #204 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It would take 4 of those KK subs to equal the one sub2 at 16hz so I am not sure where the savings will be.

keep in mind you gain 6db across the board with each additional sub and there designed to be corner loaded, I doubt it would take 4, and what I get from one in 21x20x8 room, two should do the trick biggrin.gif
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post #205 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:43 PM
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If a FR that rolls off at 20Hz like the DXD12012 is what you're after, and you think 2 of those would "more than get the job done", I wonder what you'd think about the SVS PB13-Ultra which would roughly match the output of 4 of those for 1/6th the cost and taking up half the space.

Read closer it wasn't in a corner rolleyes.gif
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post #206 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:46 PM
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keep in mind you gain 6db across the board with each additional sub and there designed to be corner loaded, I doubt it would take 4, and what I get from one in 21x20x8 room, two should do the trick biggrin.gif

Ya at $2995 a pop So for $5995 you still might be "happy" with the end result no thanks.... for 5-7k you can get a lot more sub.

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post #207 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:53 PM
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Ya at $2995 a pop So for $5995 you still might be "happy" with the end result no thanks.... for 5-7k you can get a lot more sub.

Doubt it, I like clean deep bass and sometimes you gotta pay to play wink.gif
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post #208 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 02:59 PM
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Doubt it, I like clean deep bass and sometimes you gotta pay to play wink.gif

I don't disagree but the term no replacement for displacement comes to mind.

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post #209 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 03:01 PM
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I don't disagree but the term no replacement for displacement comes to mind.

I'm not sure I follow?
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post #210 of 466 Old 07-18-2013, 03:03 PM
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I'm not sure I follow?

I don't agree with spending that much money for only 12 inch drivers. At least not in a sealed alignment.

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