Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Can you explain what you mean, by PSA going out of business and ID going away? I just checked out the XV-15 pages and didn't see much of anything negative in the comments, and the graphs looked fine. And what do you mean about the Data list being on the brink? Brink of what?

i suggest reading thru the whole thread...it helps!
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post #182 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 03:41 PM
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Can you explain what you mean, by PSA going out of business and ID going away? I just checked out the XV-15 pages and didn't see much of anything negative in the comments, and the graphs looked fine. And what do you mean about the Data list being on the brink? Brink of what?
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i suggest reading thru the whole thread...it helps!

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post #183 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

IMHO, that's not what Mark was really saying. It seems that he simply wants to have his ducks in a row before seeking greater exposure. He wants to have a proper web site to point new customers to and a familiar on-line ordering process. He needs to make sure that his supply line is there so that he doesn't end up in back-order hell. etc, etc. I think that this is being both considerate of his current customers and his potential customers. I mean, I love to see numbers just like anyone, but I also know, as everyone should by now, that Mark Seaton is a class-A guy who does not have a history of BSing people.

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post #184 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 06:26 PM
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IMHO, that's not what Mark was really saying. It seems that he simply wants to have his ducks in a row before seeking greater exposure. ... etc.
I think it may just have been a riff on this comment of his:
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Working with suppliers to insure they can maintain quality and consistency as volume ramps up is a constant battle.
IOW, too much volume and the battle is lost. Whatever. My point was simply that the earlier post appeared to be a sarcastic reference, not a verbatim quote or an accurate paraphrasing.
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post #185 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

IMHO, that's not what Mark was really saying. It seems that he simply wants to have his ducks in a row before seeking greater exposure. He wants to have a proper web site to point new customers to and a familiar on-line ordering process. He needs to make sure that his supply line is there so that he doesn't end up in back-order hell. etc, etc. I think that this is being both considerate of his current customers and his potential customers. I mean, I love to see numbers just like anyone, but I also know, as everyone should by now, that Mark Seaton is a class-A guy who does not have a history of BSing people.

After six years and those ducks are still not lined up......must be a lot of wayward ducks.
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post #186 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post

After six years and those ducks are still not lined up......must be a lot of wayward ducks.

Well, do you see a fully functioning web site where people can browse product and order? http://www.seatonsound.net

There's a duck or two.
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post #187 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 09:53 PM
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It's funny how it's so easy for many to criticize Mark for his business model up to date behind an username on the internet. But if you were in a meeting sitting face to face with Mark would it be the same? To me it's like when I was in high school basketball was huge. I could make 20-30 three point baskets in a row just shooting around in practice. I truly felt I could make every shot, I was that confident. (Lots of practice and a general touch with a ball obviously) I remember always watching NBA and watching guys miss open shots and honestly thinking to myself, "man, I could easily make that shot!" But let's be honest, when you get in there with the big boys you or I wouldn't stand a chance. It's the same with His business model/life approach. I'm sure he has been through some big time pressures and decisions that would buckle a good crowd of people.

That's what I have thought all along following this thread. Night All! smile.gif
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post #188 of 456 Old 07-16-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

It's funny how it's so easy for many to criticize Mark for his business model up to date behind an username on the internet. But if you were in a meeting sitting face to face with Mark would it be the same? To me it's like when I was in high school basketball was huge. I could make 20-30 three point baskets in a row just shooting around in practice. I truly felt I could make every shot, I was that confident. (Lots of practice and a general touch with a ball obviously) I remember always watching NBA and watching guys miss open shots and honestly thinking to myself, "man, I could easily make that shot!" But let's be honest, when you get in there with the big boys you or I wouldn't stand a chance. It's the same with His business model/life approach. I'm sure he has been through some big time pressures and decisions that would buckle a good crowd of people.

That's what I have thought all along following this thread. Night All! smile.gif

Making honest criticisms is not unreasonable such as not having a website and other issues.
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post #189 of 456 Old 07-17-2013, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I heard back from Mark. He suggested I post a link to a post he made a while back in the Submersive thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/759877/seaton-sound-submersive1/7200#post_22537936 That post explains his thoughts on 3rd party testing.

He also said I could mention that he has been working on 2 things: 1. The website, (Yeah!!!), and, 2. An amplifier modification for the Submersive. He didn't elaborate on exactly what the mod is, but he plans to send Josh Ricci a Submersive for testing when he finalizes the amp mod and the website. No timeframe was given, but I would be happy to be a beta-tester for the amp mod, if that would speed up the process! smile.gif

Craig

PS. Just to be absolutely clear, I will NOT be sending one of my Submersives to Josh Ricci for testing.

That's fine its ultimately up to mark. I find it funny he was only focused on the recent failures in ID. Not the success stories.

Again I won't call Seaton products a benchmark until their measured. I'm not saying they aren't something great..I just don't want people to be bases comparisons of something that hasn't been measured. Heck even if mark could be more clear on the capabilities of his products it would be very helpful. Mark can run his business the way he wants. As I said mark is focused on the custom installer market which has allowed him to keep prices down. Which has included neglecting a website. Its not my preferred method but again its mark choice.

Also I think the mod for the subm HP amp is a universal / voltage switch that has been in the works for a while now.

Go to a subwoofer meet and hear one for yourself. There's a reason it's placed first or at worst second at every single subwoofer meet it's been to -- at least that I know about. it's a fantastic offering, and significantly superior to the typical $1K subs by the likes of SVS, PSA, HSU etc....(as one should think it would be - given its pricepoint.) There are plenty of subwoofer meets to read up on - many have had the Submersive HP involved. It wins or comes in second everytime in both sound quality and output to the vast majority of enthusiasts who attend these events.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1367811/subwoofer-shootout-subwoofer-roundup-url-lists

There are plenty of frequency response plots of the submersive compared to many other popular mainstream and internet direct subs in those g2g links.

The doubting Thomas stance is sort of like saying a Ferrari Enzo isn't any better than an American pony car until Top Gear puts up specific track numbers to prove it.

I get the rationale --- but all you have to do is drive one to know.
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post #190 of 456 Old 07-17-2013, 08:25 PM
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I just saw the link that craig john posted which refers to why Mark does not want 3rd party testing at this point. After reading his comments he is absolutely correct in managing his growth and in reality is looking out for his customers and not over extending himself.

A good thread to read about the problems company's can have when they don't manage there growth is this one: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446325/tekton-pendragon I only checked it out because a friend of mine has the Pendragon's and they are great speakers. The great review they got I feel has actually hurt that company as they grew too fast and cannot fulfill orders in a timely fashion anymore. There are always steps in business, miss a few and you could wind up falling off the ladder.

I know Mark is not hiding anything by holding off on any 3rd party testing, he is making sure he can deliver on what he promises, he is being smart. The people who complain that there are no 3rd party testing are the same people who will complain when they cannot get a Submersive due to a 2 month back-log after great test results. When Mark does finally send off a SubM for testing to Ricci I am sure he will be prepared for the extra orders.

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post #191 of 456 Old 07-17-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

The question then who will give up their submersive HP for some time?

I own a submersive, and. I only live five minutes away from Josh. He actually helped me set up my subs when I purchased them. Josh is an all-around great guy.

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post #192 of 456 Old 07-17-2013, 09:26 PM
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I have heard a subm, hsu 15h, lms18, rythmik 15e, subm deserve the highest praise. Amazing for its size and output in a 20x40x9 open to a 20x30x18 and upstairs hallway.talking about a hughe open space. Amazing sound.
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post #193 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 03:59 AM
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Amazing the constant comparisons to subs half the price, yet most couldn't tell the difference when they listened blindly along with the ported Cap. Does anyone really doubt that the Submersive represent the pinnacle of subwoofer design? Where are the naysayers whose dissention we are refuting? biggrin.gif
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post #194 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 05:32 AM
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I have been a SubMersive owner since June 2007. Back then I was part of this forum and I noticed Mark posted a lot. I was also reading how many people were really into big bass as it was becoming popular. Velodyne, among others were the big players back then. But they were very expensive for me. Also, I think that's when JL may have just started to come out with their sub but I may be wrong with the timing of that. So, back then I wanted to up my game in the sub arena but did not know how to do it. Then I started hearing about and reading about the SubMersive. I stated to read the dedicated SubMersive thread and asking people questions. I even asked Ed M. his advice. This was before he stated at SVS. He told me point blank, if I were looking for a sub to go in a small sealed room, the SubMersive was the way to go. End of story. So, I started to converse with Mark. Now remember, this is back in 2007 and there wasn't even a forum up for his stuff yet. But because it was in the beginning, I think Mark had more time. So I took a chance and I gave him a PM. He came back with an outstanding reply. That set off more questions. He sent me info and a description of his sub. After talking with him for a while I decided that I would go for it. Without a website or any other reason. Just based on my conversations with him, the info he gave me, and the fact that I felt he his character was good. So here I am now, 6 years later(HP upgrade) and the sub I bought back then, with no website to back it up is still a benchmark.

Let me just add this about benchmark subs. For me, it was the JM Lab Sub Utopia Be. That was the most amazing sub I have ever heard. I would listen to that sub every weekend at this store I used to go to. I never experienced a sub like that before. It was so powerful and just jaw dropping good. Now this sub was tested, but it was tested I think incorrectly a number of years ago on AVtalk. I say incorrectly because it was a ported sub and they did not take that into consideration when they tested it. Yet, this single 16in driver, in a ported box had some of the highest output of any sub tested over there if my memory is correct. Plus, as I said, when I heard it in a room, it instantly became my standard. The SubMersive, is in my mind as good SQ wiseand probably plays lower and maybe even louder then that sub did. And that sub was 3X the cost of my SubMersive when I bought it. So the SubMersive then became MY bench mark to which I would measure all other subs whether it was measured or not.

I understand people want the website up. Hell, even I want it up. But in reality, you can find all you need on Marks forum site. There he has the products that are available and a description about them. Plus, as it has already been mentioned, there are plenty of tests that are listed on this site where you can read reviews of the sub. It seems to me that if I compare Marks forum site to let's say, the JTR speaker site, the main difference is that on the JTR site you can see pics and on some of the product descriptions there is a max SPL output number given. But I would not call the JTR website "pretty" like a JL or Velodyne website. It is functional. That is what I think Mark's site is. It may be one level below that in some people's eyes but in the end, does that really matter? I do think it would be cool and beneficial to just have a picture of each product with the color of the available finishes though. But even those can be found, albeit with some effort on the users part. I did not need any third party testing to convince me that this was the sub for me. Just talking with the man was good enough. And I don't need any third part testing to tell me I made a great choice. Now Every time I listen to it I made a great choice. But since I really can't let loose in my room, I would be lying if I said I wan't curious to see what this things limits are biggrin.gif. But not knowing it's limits does not take away from my enjoyment of it. All I know is that if you do some major digging on Mark's forum, you can find people with 4000, 5000, and even 6000cf who have posted about having a single non HP SubMersive in their room and the results they got. I guess I have said enough. I hope my story has not offended anybody somehow.
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post #195 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 07:13 AM
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Personally a sealed sub would never be my benchmark.
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post #196 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 07:57 AM
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To answer the original question as to whether the Seaton SubMersive HP is a Benchmark Sub. I will simply say it doesn't suck wink.gif
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post #197 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The doubting Thomas stance is sort of like saying a Ferrari Enzo isn't any better than an American pony car until Top Gear puts up specific track numbers to prove it.

That would make Josh Ricci the Stig of subwoofers I guess.

It doesn't take The Stig to let us know that a Ferrari beats a Mustang. But amongst higher offerings, having The Stig test all cars using a consistent methodology is a very helpful way to compare them indeed. There is tremendous value in that in my opinion.
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post #198 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 09:24 AM
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I have to say that yes the SubM HP is probably one of the top subs but honestly how can it be the "bench mark" without confirmed third party measurements?
That would be the same as someone saying a particular super car is the bench mark without knowing what it's 0-60, or 1/4 mile time is, or 100-0 or 0-100-0 times or lateral G's in the skid pad or slalom time would be.

I agree that it's probably one of the finest subs made under 5grand but I just don't think he could be called the "bench mark" until there's numbers to back that statement up IMO.
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post #199 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 09:38 AM
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However we want to refer to the SubM it sure seems to make a lot of peoples Short List. Benchmark subwoofer or not it is compared to more than any other subwoofer (costing at least 2 grand) on the AVS forum.
I guess the question is If not the Submersive, realistically priced What subwoofer is? We may need to have an agreed upon definition of the term BenchMark Subwoofer to figure it out.
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post #200 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I have to say that yes the SubM HP is probably one of the top subs but honestly how can it be the "bench mark" without confirmed third party measurements?
That would be the same as someone saying a particular super car is the bench mark without knowing what it's 0-60, or 1/4 mile time is, or 100-0 or 0-100-0 times or lateral G's in the skid pad or slalom time would be.

I agree that it's probably one of the finest subs made under 5grand but I just don't think he could be called the "bench mark" until there's numbers to back that statement up IMO.

Exactly!
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post #201 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 09:52 AM
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However we want to refer to the SubM it sure seems to make a lot of peoples Short List. Benchmark subwoofer or not it is compared to more than any other subwoofer (costing at least 2 grand) on the AVS forum.
I guess the question is If not the Submersive, realistically priced What subwoofer is? We may need to have an agreed upon definition of the term BenchMark Subwoofer to figure it out.
Chris

Well, we have to keep it sealed to begin with. I would think the benchmark would be the Sub2 until the CapS2 and submersive gets tested.
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post #202 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 10:21 AM
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Well, we have to keep it sealed to begin with. I would think the benchmark would be the Sub2 until the CapS2 and submersive gets tested.

agreed, I'm hoping Tom and Jim send Josh a Triax later this summer... should make things interesting.

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post #203 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 10:26 AM
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We may need to have an agreed upon definition of the term BenchMark Subwoofer to figure it out.

This.

However it is unlikely to happen since everyone has different tastes and experiences with different subs under different circumstances. Preference plays a huge role in this and I don't believe there can ever be a universal benchmark sub unless all you are talking about are measured numbers.

Databass is a good example of a numbers benchmark for comparing different subs (assuming one fully understands what they are reading), which should be the benchmark sub to compare against is a matter of opinion again.

What traits should be considered and if all of them which should be the most important? Price,Size,Popularity,Burst output,Long term output,Distortion levels,Time domain behavior,Frequency response,Compression.

There are too many ways to look at it and each would yield its own "benchmark" sub and many of these attributes would vary over frequency so which frequency range do you emphasize? Everyone would insist their criteria is the right one when honestly there isn't a right or wrong answer, it is all about one's constraints and application and preferences. It is a balancing act, always has been, always will be.
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post #204 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 10:35 AM
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Excellent post. ^^^
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post #205 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

That would make Josh Ricci the Stig of subwoofers I guess.

It doesn't take The Stig to let us know that a Ferrari beats a Mustang. But amongst higher offerings, having The Stig test all cars using a consistent methodology is a very helpful way to compare them indeed. There is tremendous value in that in my opinion.
^^+1 That would be like Ed doing a review and measurements on a popular SW and most of us just passing by the link.. nope not interested. Now is that realistic? rolleyes.gif
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post #206 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 11:18 AM
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Ken Kresiel's new DXD12012's where recently installed at Dolby theater in Hollywood for the Oscars and have largely played a role in many reference mixes under the M&K banner , the new DXD12012 is a new beast entirely and set a record at "Secrets" on its distortion measurements http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers/subwoofers-reviews/ken-kreisel-dxd-12012-dual-12-push-pull-subwoofer/page-4-on-the-bench.html
if price is not an issue on the criteria, as its designed as subwoofer system and now that someone has mentioned the Sub 2 which would be a solid contender as well as the Seaton ,but at the price 11k and as a whole I'd put a Quattro on Ken's sub at the top of my list for benchmark sub and even two would more than get the job done.
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post #207 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ken Kresiel's new DXD12012's where recently installed at Dolby theater in Hollywood for the Oscars and have largely played a role in many reference mixes under the M&K banner , the new DXD12012 is a new beast entirely and set a record at "Secrets" on its distortion measurements http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers/subwoofers-reviews/ken-kreisel-dxd-12012-dual-12-push-pull-subwoofer/page-4-on-the-bench.html
if price is not an issue on the criteria, as its designed as subwoofer system and now that someone has mentioned the Sub 2 which would be a solid contender as well as the Seaton ,but at the price 11k and as a whole I'd put a Quattro on Ken's sub at the top of my list for benchmark sub and even two would more than get the job done.

I see you are a fan of your newly owned sub and I respect that. The installment of their subs in Dolby theater which is although quite something to talk about, is not at the main hall but the lounge. I don't understand why KK makes it so apparant in their ads without mentioning that.

There are some articles existing online including some measurement for the DXD12012, but to my amazement these do not look quite consistent. I guess that's why we crave for someone that could do in-depth bench tests of these known subs for fair comparison.

ken wu
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post #208 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 01:26 PM
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It would take 4 of those KK subs to equal the one sub2 at 16hz so I am not sure where the savings will be.
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post #209 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 01:47 PM
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What's a sub2?
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post #210 of 456 Old 07-18-2013, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

What's a sub2?

http://www.paradigm.com/products/model=sub-2/page=overview

Paradigm's reference sub for their signature line.

ShaunH
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