dual psw505 or a single prosub800 or ??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 07-10-2013, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Dilemma on options above or any sub fits my $300. Poor sub man here. Any input is appreciated. Thank you.
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post #2 of 32 Old 07-10-2013, 07:04 AM
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Hey doggie.. Check out the first post in this thread and then fill us in would you? It’s at the top of the main page under sticky threads." Want advice on what sub to purchase Please read this before posting"... Thanks smile.gif

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post #3 of 32 Old 07-10-2013, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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My bad, I couldn't find the thread but I am assuming it's the specifics. Please see the details below:

Family room (HT)(15' x 13')open space with kitchen (15' x 11') 9' height. Laminate floor, subfloor concrete. Single home with enough space to disregard the neighbors lol

Speakers: LCR
Polk Rti100 http://www.polkaudio.com/products/rti100
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Adcom GFA535 to juice my Csi40

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80% movies
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1 wife...happy wife happy life.
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From sitting position to my fronts


From sitting to my left


From sitting to my right


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post #4 of 32 Old 07-10-2013, 10:27 AM
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1 wife...happy wife happy life.
4 kids....small ones...trouble but love them dearly.

Lol wink.gif

Is there any waay of doubling your budget?? I only ask because many times a guy decides to up his budget once he sees how important a good sub is. If not the 12D is on sale for $70 off over at Newegg with the promo code. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL070513&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL070513-_-EMC-070513-Index-_-HomeAudioSpeakers-_-82780078-L0L It’s considered by many as the best option under $300. I bought one on a lark to check it out and I was impressed with it’s ability. I don’t use it, but for under $300 it’s quite impressive imo and a AVS top pick under $300.

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post #5 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah man, I read about Klipsch 12d and been eyeing on it. For $300, i can get 2xPsW505 shipped. Do u think a single Klipsch 12d would be superior than the dual subs?
I can probably push the limit to $400. frown.gif
Any thoughts on the Deftech prosubs?
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post #6 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 07:07 AM
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I have never had a Deftech but they aren't very well thought of around here. Highly over rated/spec'd 8” option in short. You’re 80% movies so you would really benefit going to a larger driver.. powered accordingly in a larger enclosure with a lower tune.

Dual 505’s would serve you best if you’re trying to get more coverage at all seating options and would help smooth your response. That’s a good price you mentioned. The 505 and the BIC F12 are considered by most the best options around $200. All this being said.. I might still opt for the 12D though. It’s a more substantial sub that has more “usable” extension and will hold it’s composer at higher levels. I don’t have numbers to prove that claim off the top of my head though. So take that as a opinion along with being held by others. Dual collocated 505’s should take it out, maybe not in the extension spl category?? The SQ regarding the 12D is supposedly better also. Only you can figure out what your priorities are regarding.

Now if you could just stretch another $100 you could opt for the PB-1000 http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb-1000 or a few other options. 45 day free trial, free shipping both ways and special 6 month financing. The Deft would be a snack as opposed to a meal in comparison to the PB.. Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to pimp subs, but am always glad to see users impressions when they upgrade to a more capable sub starting in the $500 range. Some won’t, can’t and there’s nothing wrong with that. cool.gif
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post #7 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 08:26 AM
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I agree with Steve. I'd stay away from the DefTech. Really only best suited for small rooms and at moderate volumes. Either the dual 505s or the RW-12d would be much better.

Also, looking at your front sound stage picture. Have you tried your center channel in the slot above the TV where your receiver (I think) is? Down on the floor seems a really bad position to me, whereas the receiver would be just as happy there smile.gif
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post #8 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by doggie750 View Post

Yeah man, I read about Klipsch 12d and been eyeing on it. For $300, i can get 2xPsW505 shipped. Do u think a single Klipsch 12d would be superior than the dual subs?
I can probably push the limit to $400. frown.gif
Any thoughts on the Deftech prosubs?

I had 2 psw505's and they were decent for the money...the one nice thing about them is its hard to make them distort when pushed hard with music. I had a jbl es250 also and it had deeper extension, but no protection for the driver and could easily make some funky noises on the low notes. That being said I would probably go with the 12d, it might not have as much output as 2 505's in the 30-50hz region, but it wil have much deeper extension and better sound quality.
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post #9 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Agreed, SVS pb is a concrete option but can't pull the trigger.

Center Csi40 is doomed down on the floor. It's tilted and so far so good.

Newegg promo ends today and I gotta pull the trigger. Now or never
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post #10 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 12:40 PM
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Go for the RW-12D and call it a day. Considering that you are able to stretch your budget a little now, perhaps you could consider picking up a second Klipsch later on.
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post #11 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kesando View Post

Go for the RW-12D and call it a day. Considering that you are able to stretch your budget a little now, perhaps you could consider picking up a second Klipsch later on.

That's a good point. If you ever want more/better bass, you'd have to replace the PSW505s (unless you want three or four subs in your living room). If you get the RW-12d, you should have to buy a second one smile.gif

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post #12 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Proud to be a RW-12d now.....pulled the trigger @ Newegg a few mins ago after a lost on the ebay bid, the RW-12d. Cheers to all. Thanks!
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post #13 of 32 Old 07-11-2013, 10:09 PM
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^^ Congrats.. please come back with pics and your opinion if you find the time. cool.gif
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post #14 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 04:39 AM
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Hi guys, i was reading a little in this thread, and a question came up, arent two subs a lot for that area "Family room (HT)(15' x 13')open space with kitchen (15' x 11') 9' height." considering that the sitting area is the family room, if the sub is near that area or in fact within it, dispite that it is open to the kitchen, the bass from the RW12 will be enough (my specualtions) to cover the 15'x13' area or not? this is a learning question for me in case I am wrong. I know we all like extra subs, but just from a design point of view, is 1 12inch sub such as the RW12 enough for that area?
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post #15 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by goldorak_20 View Post

Hi guys, i was reading a little in this thread, and a question came up, arent two subs a lot for that area "Family room (HT)(15' x 13')open space with kitchen (15' x 11') 9' height." considering that the sitting area is the family room, if the sub is near that area or in fact within it, dispite that it is open to the kitchen, the bass from the RW12 will be enough (my specualtions) to cover the 15'x13' area or not? this is a learning question for me in case I am wrong. I know we all like extra subs, but just from a design point of view, is 1 12inch sub such as the RW12 enough for that area?

The reason to buy dual subs is typically not for extra SPL (output). Unless co-located, adding a 2nd sub generally only adds a few extra db of output.

The reason to buy dual subs is to provide a smoother frequency response throughout a wider area--in other words, better room filling bass.

And yes. If the single sub is nearfield--within about 3 feet of the listening area--then adding a 2nd sub may not make much difference. But most people aren't locating their subs that close.
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post #16 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 07:49 AM
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The reason to buy dual subs is typically not for extra SPL (output). Unless co-located, adding a 2nd sub generally only adds a few extra db of output.
Doubling the sub count will always result is a 6dB increase in total output capacity. When mutually coupled (that's the correct engineering term) less than 1/4 wavelength apart their outputs are fully constructively combined. When separated by 1/4 wavelength or more their outputs are both constructively and destructively combined, depending on frequency and the separation distance, and the effect of room modes. The ideal process by which they smooth room response is that their outputs constructively combine to fill in null frequencies, and destructively combine to reduce peaked frequencies. Another factor is that 1/4 wavelength distance. The more subs you have the less the maximum distance between any two of them, and the higher the frequency to which they mutually couple. That's why some of the best results come from having a wall of subs across the front of the room, where that 1/4 wavelength distance in the pass band between any two of the subs is never realized. But as that requires less than 3.5 foot spacing between subs with an 80Hz crossover it can be a very pricey option.

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post #17 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Doubling the sub count will always result is a 6dB increase in total output capacity. When mutually coupled (that's the correct engineering term) less than 1/4 wavelength apart their outputs are fully constructively combined. When separated by 1/4 wavelength or more their outputs are both constructively and destructively combined, depending on frequency and the separation distance, and the effect of room modes. The ideal process by which they smooth room response is that their outputs constructively combine to fill in null frequencies, and destructively combine to reduce peaked frequencies. Another factor is that 1/4 wavelength distance. The more subs you have the less the maximum distance between any two of them, and the higher the frequency to which they mutually couple. That's why some of the best results come from having a wall of subs across the front of the room, where that 1/4 wavelength distance in the pass band between any two of the subs is never realized. But as that requires less than 3.5 foot spacing between subs with an 80Hz crossover it can be a very pricey option.

I'm not sure if you disagreed, agreed, or partially agreed with me. LOL smile.gif

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post #18 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 08:39 AM
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I'm not sure if you disagreed, agreed, or partially agreed with me. LOL smile.gif

Yeah I just ran across another post Bill made that I was going to question him on regarding collocated and parted. I then said to myself let it go, there has to be something he is saying that I don’t understand and his answer would most likely shoot over my head. biggrin.gif

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post #19 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 09:39 AM
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I'm not sure if you disagreed, agreed, or partially agreed with me. LOL smile.gif
Disagreed, as you always will get 6dB, not just a few dB. Whether that entire 6dB will be realized at a particular listening position depends on the sub placement and room, but at most frequencies you will. The simple physics involved is that when you double the number of drivers while maintaining the same voltage swing that doubles system cone excursion, and that gives 6dB additional output. And the term co-located is something someone pulled out of thin air, I've never seen it used anywhere but here. In engineering circles we've been using the term mutually coupled for fifty years, give or take.

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post #20 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 09:45 AM
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Disagreed, as you always will get 6dB, not just a few dB. Whether that entire 6dB will be realized at a particular listening position depends on the sub placement and room, but at most frequencies you will. The simple physics involved is that when you double the number of drivers while maintaining the same voltage swing that doubles system cone excursion, and that gives 6dB additional output. And the term co-located is something someone pulled out of thin air, I've never seen it used anywhere but here. In engineering circles we've been using the term mutually coupled for fifty years, give or take.


I was wondering because I get a full 6db at my listening posistion and my subs are 11-12ft apart...thanks for clarifying!
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post #21 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 10:02 AM
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Disagreed, as you always will get 6dB, not just a few dB. Whether that entire 6dB will be realized at a particular listening position depends on the sub placement and room, but at most frequencies you will. The simple physics involved is that when you double the number of drivers while maintaining the same voltage swing that doubles system cone excursion, and that gives 6dB additional output. And the term co-located is something someone pulled out of thin air, I've never seen it used anywhere but here. In engineering circles we've been using the term mutually coupled for fifty years, give or take.

That's good to know, because there have been discussions in the past which based the dual sub output on the doubling of wattage, not the doubling of excursion.

As for subwoofer colocating, while it may not be used in engineering circles, it's not just AVS that uses that term. Google it smile.gif

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I never have experienced a 6dB gain in parting over 6-7'. Then I guess it’s just the frequency (and the room interaction) I was testing them at? Learn every day! Another myth buster??

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post #23 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 10:20 AM
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I never have experienced a 6dB gain in parting over 6-7'. Then I guess it’s just the frequency (and the room interaction) I was testing them at? Learn every day! Another myth buster??

this is part of the reason I asked about plugging the ports on my xv15's...I was curious if that would remove the massive 30hz peak since I am getting huge amounts of room gain. I was suprised to see a 6db drop when I turned off one sub.
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this is part of the reason I asked about plugging the ports on my xv15's...I was curious if that would remove the massive 30hz peak since I am getting huge amounts of room gain. I was suprised to see a 6db drop when I turned off one sub.

I’m not questioning it, but this one goes against all my past experience, although limited knowledge. So you found this out by accident. There are so many of us that believe certain things by experience but definitely see it’s not the final conclusion. Maybe generally is a good descriptive when it comes to parting then? There are also so many that state the +2-3 / 6dB gain... and like said been my experiance.

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post #25 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Doubling the sub count will always result is a 6dB increase in total output capacity. When mutually coupled (that's the correct engineering term) less than 1/4 wavelength apart their outputs are fully constructively combined. When separated by 1/4 wavelength or more their outputs are both constructively and destructively combined, depending on frequency and the separation distance, and the effect of room modes. The ideal process by which they smooth room response is that their outputs constructively combine to fill in null frequencies, and destructively combine to reduce peaked frequencies. Another factor is that 1/4 wavelength distance. The more subs you have the less the maximum distance between any two of them, and the higher the frequency to which they mutually couple. That's why some of the best results come from having a wall of subs across the front of the room, where that 1/4 wavelength distance in the pass band between any two of the subs is never realized. But as that requires less than 3.5 foot spacing between subs with an 80Hz crossover it can be a very pricey option.

Timeout.

Is the bold comment based on the assumption of running two active subs, effectively doubling the vd and power?

Given the context and forum location of this thread, I ascertain we are referring to coupling two RW-12D subs. In that case we have double power and double displacement.

Or does your comment imply that coupling subs while using the same power could net a theoretical gain of 6db from an acoustical standpoint alone?

I fully understand that doubling passive drivers would alter the impedance load of an amp/amp channel, thus making it somewhat impractical to expect the same power as supplied to a single sub...

old-school-debate-o.gif

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page because I think it's pretty clear to us all that the OP will get a taste of bass from the RW-12D and come clawing back for more with 10-20x the budget...

At least he will if he sticks around AVS...
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post #26 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 11:40 AM
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Is the bold comment based on the assumption of running two active subs, effectively doubling the vd and power?

Yes, you'd double active subwoofers to achieve double the sound pressure (+6dB). Alternatively, you could feed a driver 4x the power (double the voltage) to achieve the same end (assuming that the driver is responding linearly).
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post #27 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 12:18 PM
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Timeout.

Is the bold comment based on the assumption of running two active subs, effectively doubling the vd and power?
It's based on the assumption of running two drivers, any two identical drivers, at the same voltage swing.

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post #28 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 12:40 PM
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I never have experienced a 6dB gain in parting over 6-7'. Then I guess it’s just the frequency (and the room interaction) I was testing them at? Learn every day! Another myth buster??

this is part of the reason I asked about plugging the ports on my xv15's...I was curious if that would remove the massive 30hz peak since I am getting huge amounts of room gain. I was suprised to see a 6db drop when I turned off one sub.

You must have a graph showing this. Your saying you gained 6db over your subs usable range? Or just over some of the frequency? I'm not talking about pink AVR/spl meter testing.
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post #29 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

You must have a graph showing this. Your saying you gained 6db over your subs usable range? Or just over some of the frequency? I'm not talking about pink AVR/spl meter testing.
my subs are with in 5-6ft of the main lp...if i turn off one sub the average output drops 6db. I am just going off of a spl meter. Either way I am not going to hook up measuring gear to prove anything. In the end 2 subs is better than 1 and 3 is better than 2...so I will be adding a 3rd soon. smile.gif
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post #30 of 32 Old 07-12-2013, 03:07 PM
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I agree that more then one sub is nice to have and more conformity over the space will be gained with the right placement. but considering the size of room mentioned herein, is one RW 12 fair enough without the "need" for another sub?
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