Need a sub to match my Tannoy speakers. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 07-11-2013, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,
I'm looking for a powered sub to replace my dead sub. I have been reading through the forums and have noticed that the face of home theater has changed since I last ventured for product. The brick and mortar stores are being phased out by the ID outfits. I'm being drowned in brands/ specs and finding more relevant models daily and am worried of missing out on a product to consider by not being familiar with all the ID brands I don't know of. My budget is in the +/- $1000 range. I have the following components:

5 - Tannoy Precision 8 (set up in L/C/R/LR/RR)
1 - Denon AVR X-2000
1 - Playstation 3 for games/DVDs/BlueRays (soon to be replaced by a Playstation 4)
1 - Direct TV HR23700 cable box
1 - SurroundCast wireless rear surround transmitter

I currently have one Tannoy TS12 sub which is about 10yrs old! It has stopped working so I want to replace it. It is a 12" downward firing sub. I do have active kids so downward firing sub is appealing just from the "protect my investment" frame of mind. I liked the fullness of that sub and it also had LFE controls onboard. My range of music is upbeat classical, EDM, old school, trance, Pink Floyd, dance, top 40, latin dance, latin rock and more but that should give you a range of sonics.

Room description:
* my room is 16.5'x21' playing long ways
* I have a tiled floor
* there are lots of windows
* one of the long walls opens to the kitchen with a long counter and a hallway on either side
* the ceiling is raked on the short side from 18' down to 8' with an opening to a room above

Usage description:
80% movies
15% gaming
5% music

Volume level:
I like loud volumes for some viewing but don't want to sacrifice quality at low volumes either.


I'm glad I found such a helpful and informed site. Thanks in advance for your help and advice! smile.gif
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post #2 of 45 Old 07-11-2013, 10:34 AM
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PSA XV15 ($799, shipped). It's a well-rated sub with plenty of output and sub-20Hz extension; it plays well with both movies and music; and it's backed by a five-year warranty and top-notch customer service.
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post #3 of 45 Old 07-11-2013, 03:06 PM
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At $1k, I would look at Rythmik Audio. HSU also has subs and SVS too for a bit more.
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post #4 of 45 Old 07-11-2013, 07:28 PM
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A couple of these would be good to: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html
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post #5 of 45 Old 07-11-2013, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions. After looking through the suggestions I have narrowed it down to these models for various reasons. Any input on these?

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/cylinder/pc12-plus#.Ud9wsm1sgdo
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/D15SE.html
or
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15HP.html

I have also seen mention of Epik but their site shows all their subs out of stock and waiting on a "new" design to be come out soon. Any one know when? Anyone know what the specs/ pricing might be?

I'm honestly not familiar with any of these brands but they are well represented throughout. A concern with PSA is since it's such a new company longevity is not guaranteed. Regarding Rythmik I'm not so sure about the servo driven speakers. I know it's real tech but is all the propaganda on their site citing the way better sound than the competition legit?

I seem to be leaning more towards the HSU or SVS but am wanting to remain open minded. Any other models I might consider other than the ones I listed?

Thanks!
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post #6 of 45 Old 07-11-2013, 09:50 PM
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Epik hasn't had sub stock in months. Strike them from your list.

In that size room, open to the kitchen and a hallway, you should shoot for as much SPL as you can get. I'd probably go with the Rythmik FV15HP (not on your list). Same price as the F15HP, but ported, which should give you more output over the F15HP. Many people have reported on the good sound of the Rythmik direct servo drivers, so I wouldn't worry about it being just marketing hype.

The other one I would consider would be the X30. A "guess" based on comparing the numbers that PSA has for it and the numbers on data-bass.com for the FV15HP, I would think that the X30 might have more output over 40hz, but the FV15HP with more under 30hz. But just a guess.

I'd skip the others you have listed. Not because they are bad subs, but because you have a big room with lots of connecting space. The more SPL, the better. smile.gif
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post #7 of 45 Old 07-11-2013, 11:26 PM
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Dual subs are a cost effective option as well. There are many benefits to going with multiple subs and 2 ported 12's like the Hsu Vtf2 Mk4 will give you alot more extension and likely more overall output than any of the single sealed 15" subs in your list.
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post #8 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I appreciate the responses. So to further explain the situation on subs these are my options in my situation as I see it:

* I can place a single http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html sub in the rear corner and send a wireless signal. The sloped ceiling here creates a natural upward slope that may or may not make a difference.

* I can place a single http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html sub to the left of my HT cabinet. It's pretty large to hold the 73" RP TV and is next to a hallway and I can 't do that to the other side.

* I could do a http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html sub in each corner but one would have to be wireless and I'm concerned about any time delays between the two subs. Thoughts?

* I could do a larger single sub in the rear with a wireless signal which is what interested me in http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html in the first place as it comes with a wireless as I understand it and is even on sale for $250 less right now.

* I could do a larger single http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html sub in the rear with a wireless signal which I would need to buy a wireless sub kit for. That position is behind a couch so I'm concerned about having the ports not be able to breathe properly.

Thanks for the suggestion on the Rythmik Audio. I looked them up and have been reading more on them and the results do seem to be good as compared to other subs. It's a bit large too. Still leaning towards an HSU I think.
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post #9 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 05:13 PM
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If the Rythmik FV15HP would be similar in distance (or less) from the seating position, I might go with it.

Outlaw Audio makes a wireless system that can be used with subwoofers if you decide to go that route: http://outlawaudio.com/products/OAW3.html

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post #10 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 05:33 PM
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The Rythmik Fv15hp doesn't seem like as good a value as the Power Sound Audio Xv15 and Hsu Vtf-15h.

The dual 15" sealed Xs30 looks like a very competitive option as well.

The Xv15 sounds like the best option for a down firing sub if dual Vtf-2's won't work for your setup.
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post #11 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

The Rythmik Fv15hp doesn't seem like as good a value as the Power Sound Audio Xv15 and Hsu Vtf-15h.

Have you compared the numbers for the XV15 and the FV15HP at data-bass.com? The FV15HP is linear to 40hz, and then much better output below. Then compare the CEA 2010 numbers for the FV15HP with the tests that Audioholics did for the VTF-15H. Although the VTF-15H numbers were taken at 1 meter, so subtract 6db from the VTF-15H numbers to match the 2 meter measurements of the FV15HP. The FV15HP is the easy winner.
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post #12 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

The Rythmik Fv15hp doesn't seem like as good a value as the Power Sound Audio Xv15 and Hsu Vtf-15h.

The Rythmik FV15HP is quite a bit more powerful than the VTF15h and XV15. It's as good a value if not better.
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post #13 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Have you compared the numbers for the XV15 and the FV15HP at data-bass.com? The FV15HP is linear to 40hz, and then much better output below. Then compare the CEA 2010 numbers for the FV15HP with the tests that Audioholics did for the VTF-15H. Although the VTF-15H numbers were taken at 1 meter, so subtract 6db from the VTF-15H numbers to match the 2 meter measurements of the FV15HP. The FV15HP is the easy winner.

No I hadn't. The Rythmik FV15HP looks ridiculously efficient.
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post #14 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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How about this Rythmik http://www.rythmikaudio.com/E15.html. It's a little smaller, a little cheaper (compensating for the wireless I need to buy) and would fit better behind the couch. Would I be sacrifing much or is it still a step up on the HSU for efficiency being servo driven still?

Thanks again!
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post #15 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 09:18 PM
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The E15 isn't going to have the overall output of the FV15HP, although it may be similar above 30 to 40 Hz or so. As for a comparison between it and the ULS-15, who knows, they are probably very close in strength. They are both sealed 15"s, roughly the same cabinet volume with the same rated amplifier power. They both have very good drivers.
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post #16 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The E15 isn't going to have the overall output of the FV15HP, although it may be similar above 30 to 40 Hz or so. As for a comparison between it and the ULS-15, who knows, they are probably very close in strength. They are both sealed 15"s, roughly the same cabinet volume with the same rated amplifier power. They both have very good drivers.

Yep. Tough call.

But if you can fit it, the VTF-15H should have more output. And it will sound very good, too smile.gif

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post #17 of 45 Old 07-12-2013, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Leaning this way but still open minded:

* 2 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html with http://outlawaudio.com/products/OAW3.html + an extra receiver. I would like to keep them both wireless just to make sure any delays are the same since they would be fed from the same output on my Denon AVR X-2000.

* a single http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html run with the included wireless.

I currently have a Surround Cast SCS-100 for the rear speakers and want to be sure it's not going to be an interference with either device. http://store.soundcastsystems.com/p/60/surroundcast

Doing the 2 subs would be more expensive since I have to get the additional wireless setup. About $1276 for two 12" subs with 250w continuous each.

While the single sub would be $1049 wireless included with 600w continuous on a 15".

The Rythmik is also a single 15" powered with 600w for $1500 plus I still need the wireless for $150. About $600 more than the HSU...

Am I wrong to think I'm pushing more paper with the duals even if they are at less power than the 15" with more than twice the power at 600w?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be sure I'm getting the best bang for buck and don't forget to ask something I'll be regretting later. Thanks!
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post #18 of 45 Old 07-13-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklights View Post

Am I wrong to think I'm pushing more paper with the duals even if they are at less power than the 15" with more than twice the power at 600w?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be sure I'm getting the best bang for buck and don't forget to ask something I'll be regretting later. Thanks!

You aren't wrong to think duals will be more powerful. First of all, since the VTF2 is ported, even a single VTF2 will have more output than the 15"s at round its tuning point, which would be around 20 Hz. Secondly, the VTF2 drivers are probably more sensitive than the 15" drivers, so not as much power is needed to push them to achieve the same air displacement (note that is just my own speculation though). I think there is a good chance you will get a more satisfying bass sound from dual 12"s, especially if you want a nice bass sound in more than a single listening position. To the 15"s advantage, they are using some heavy duty drivers and could likely give you more articulate bass, but the VTF2s are using pretty good drivers, and will help you achieve a more even bass sound and a better frequency response. I would advise you to go with dual ported 12"s, especially since you are mostly into movies and games. They will have a subjectively more powerful deep bass sound.
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post #19 of 45 Old 07-13-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklights View Post

Leaning this way but still open minded:

* 2 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html with http://outlawaudio.com/products/OAW3.html + an extra receiver. I would like to keep them both wireless just to make sure any delays are the same since they would be fed from the same output on my Denon AVR X-2000.

* a single http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html run with the included wireless.

I currently have a Surround Cast SCS-100 for the rear speakers and want to be sure it's not going to be an interference with either device. http://store.soundcastsystems.com/p/60/surroundcast

Doing the 2 subs would be more expensive since I have to get the additional wireless setup. About $1276 for two 12" subs with 250w continuous each.

While the single sub would be $1049 wireless included with 600w continuous on a 15".

The Rythmik is also a single 15" powered with 600w for $1500 plus I still need the wireless for $150. About $600 more than the HSU...

Am I wrong to think I'm pushing more paper with the duals even if they are at less power than the 15" with more than twice the power at 600w?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to be sure I'm getting the best bang for buck and don't forget to ask something I'll be regretting later. Thanks!


Amplifier power and driver size are only part of the equation. The ported Rythmik Fv15hp will have alot more output around the tuning than the sealed Hsu Uls-15.
There is also efficiency to consider.
For example the Fv15hp is around the same size as other ported 15" subs like the Psa Xv15 and Hsu Vtf-15h, but what it can do with the available power allows it to take a considerable lead when it isn't limited by excursion.
You also need around 10x the wattage to double the perceived volume (maybe a little less for bass frequencies).
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post #20 of 45 Old 07-13-2013, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought it was double the power or double the speakers for 3db of gain. I may be wrong - going off of memory here.

How about one http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15HP_specs.html vs one http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html vs two http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html? I would still need the wireless in each scenario. Thoughts on the variations? Suggestions?

I seem to be swaying towards Rythmik Audio a bit. I like what I;m hearing about it. They are only about 1.5 hrs from me which is nice. If they have them in stock i could go pick one up on Monday! smile.gif
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post #21 of 45 Old 07-13-2013, 08:53 PM
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If your willing to give up downfiring, there is also the option of dual Rythmik Lv12r's.
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post #22 of 45 Old 07-13-2013, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Hadn't considered that yet but for my situation I prefer going the single sub route right now. I would be placing the sub behind a couch so it would be safe. The down firing I like for protection, aesthetics and more importantly to keep those unwanted sounds tamed a bit. I do play some music but not as much right now, with the new sub that may change. Between the F15HP and the FV15HP which would be best for movies and games?
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post #23 of 45 Old 07-13-2013, 10:38 PM
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The Fv15hp would be best for movies and games. It will have significantly more output around the tuning frequency.
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post #24 of 45 Old 07-14-2013, 03:58 AM
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I just want to point out. PSA is not a run by people without experience. And considering the track record to its founders their not going anywhere. . SVS owes its best designs to the founders of PSA (TOM V. (also the V in SVS) and Jim F.)

It seems your set on ported. How much over 1k are you willing to price wise.

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post #25 of 45 Old 07-14-2013, 04:05 AM
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Also are you open to buying another sub later or do you want to stick to one sub?

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post #26 of 45 Old 07-14-2013, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I just want to point out. PSA is not a run by people without experience. And considering the track record to its founders their not going anywhere. . SVS owes its best designs to the founders of PSA (TOM V. (also the V in SVS) and Jim F.)
It seems your set on ported. How much over 1k are you willing to price wise.
I can respect that and thanks for bringing it up. I wasn't aware of their experience/ role there. I'm just worried after reading the thread on Epik which seemed very promising until the last couple months. Seems they ran out of money to fulfill parts orders and customer service. No inventory for months and baiting with a mysterious new design seems more like an attempt to maintain relevance than build speakers. As you mention their past history is a strong case for success and longevity. I can't speak to that for Epik or any of these guys which is one reason I truly appreciate the knowledge on this forum. As far as how much over would depend on the sub/ specs etc. I had originally started lower but after seeing some of the differences out there I raised my budget. I can see spending $1500-$1600 including the wireless transmitter. Over $2k would have to be a seriously special sub.
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Also are you open to buying another sub later or do you want to stick to one sub?
I would be open to adding one down the line but feel it may need to be when we move into a new home where I would have a custom designed media room to allow for these things or I would have to change my current configuration to accommodate another sub now or get 2 smaller subs, which I'm not sure is a negative at this point. I like the sound of a 12" but the depth of a 15". I don't like to upgrade a lot so want to be sure the sub I get now I can still get later. My current speakers I've had for about 10 years now.
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The Fv15hp would be best for movies and games. It will have significantly more output around the tuning frequency.
That's what I was thinking, I wasn't sure if the sealed enclosure would be more controlled in the subs playable spectrum. having an extra umph int he lower freqs for movies would be a benefit.

This may seem like a strange question but does the servo drive in the Rythmik subs give the 15" the control and speed of a 12" sub?
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post #27 of 45 Old 07-14-2013, 08:24 AM
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This may seem like a strange question but does the servo drive in the Rythmik subs give the 15" the control and speed of a 12" sub?

Smaller drivers do not necessarily have better SQ than larger ones. See #6 in bass myths.
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post #28 of 45 Old 07-14-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Have you compared the numbers for the XV15 and the FV15HP at data-bass.com? The FV15HP is linear to 40hz, and then much better output below. Then compare the CEA 2010 numbers for the FV15HP with the tests that Audioholics did for the VTF-15H. Although the VTF-15H numbers were taken at 1 meter, so subtract 6db from the VTF-15H numbers to match the 2 meter measurements of the FV15HP. The FV15HP is the easy winner.

that was 1m meter peak so you must subtract 9db to equal 2m rms numbers. then do not forget to add 1.5 db to the xv15 numbers due to mic placement. The FV15HP is a clear winner no doubt, but dual XV15's for around the same price as a FV15HP will provide slightly more low bass output , more mid bass, smoother response, will sacrifice 3hz extension.

Imo dual subs are a must and that being said here are my recomendations:

1000.00 budget = dual Rythmik LV12's for 1070.00 shipped

15000.00 budget = dual PSA XV15's for 1518.00 shipped

2000.00 budgtet = dual HSU VTF-15's for 1994.00 shipped

2500.00 budget = dual Rythmik FV15HP's for 2574.00 shipped

or
dual PSA XV30F's for 2658.10 shipped
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post #29 of 45 Old 07-14-2013, 01:08 PM
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What really puts the FV15HP over the top is not output or extension but cone control. The FV15HP is using a pretty heavy duty driver, the DS1510, so in addition to more output and extension, you will get much better sound quality. This isn't even including the increase in sound quality that comes with their servo mechanism, which does make a difference.
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post #30 of 45 Old 07-14-2013, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

What really puts the FV15HP over the top is not output or extension but cone control. The FV15HP is using a pretty heavy duty driver, the DS1510, so in addition to more output and extension, you will get much better sound quality. This isn't even including the increase in sound quality that comes with their servo mechanism, which does make a difference.

I agree....the only real draw back to the FV15HP is port noise when driven hard in 1 port extension mode. This could be a problem for some, but I would think duals would alleviate the problem.
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