Adding fourth sub woofer to my setup. Is it too much? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a dedicated home theater room 14 X 24 X 8. I have Paradigm monitor 11 speakers for the front, CC 290 for the center and Surround 1 for the 4 surrounds all powered by Denon 3313CI receiver.

For the subs, I currently have 3 sub woofers. I have two SVS PC12 NSD in the front corners. I still have my Paradigm DSP 3200 that I have originally bought in one of the rear corners.

I am getting a good price for almost new Paradigm Sub 12, I am thinking about adding it as a fourth sub woofer to one of the rear corners. I have Paradigm perfect bass kit, so I am more inclined towards a paradigm sub for the fourth sub woofer.

Is it too much to add a fourth sub woofer for my room size? Is it a good idea to have completely two different sub woofers on the rear corners?

This is my first home theater setup. I need some advise.
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post #2 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 07:51 AM
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Three is the most I have ever ran at a time but it’s suggested by many that four is optimal, (depends on room and seating goals) after that it translates out to diminishing returns regarding more... your best upgrade path in the SW department would be to upgrade your SW’s imo instead of another.

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post #3 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your quick response Steve. If I am upgrading my subs, what do you recommend?
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post #4 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 08:11 AM
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Not that I would suggest you do it all at once, only you know what your situation is and what it will actually take to achieve what you're looking for, but (imo) a good place to start would be PSA if your looking for the most bang for your $$. http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x SVS, Rythmik, HSU, Outlaw and the not so often mentioned Chase are worth looking at also.

EDIT> You might check the veneer options out also if you’re interested.

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post #5 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 08:42 AM
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If it were me just because I like subs to match. I would sell the paradigm sub and buy 2 more SVS PC12 NSD's and put each of them in the rear corners. 4 PC12 NSD's in 4 corners of the room would probably be pretty sweet.

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post #6 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 09:40 AM
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Here is a paper that can give you pointers about sub locations for setups involving four subs. As for the Sub 12, go for it if you have a good price, that is a very good subwoofer, certainly better than the others. Your setup will be a bit mismatched, and you will want to adjust placement, volume levels, and phase levels to optimize each sub. Use the SVS subs for the best deep bass response, and the Paradigm subs for the best mid bass response.
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post #7 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

If it were me just because I like subs to match. I would sell the paradigm sub and buy 2 more SVS PC12 NSD's and put each of them in the rear corners. 4 PC12 NSD's in 4 corners of the room would probably be pretty sweet.

+1 That would be sweet! I bring up PSA because the OP would end up having a 3-4 Plus like performance with 3-4 XV15’s at a 3-4 NSD cost.. well close. I would be hard pressed to see any upgrade question in the future if that was the route taken. I have a NSD and really like it for what it is, but then I’ve had the Plus and Ultra options also. Admittedly by adding another 1-2 NSD’s would be the easiest rout, and it would be quite substantial. A guy could also go with dual XV’s up front with the NSD’s in back for the time being until another XV or two was in the budget. Of course there is going to be a issue with not like subs, but I would think it could be worked around for a time considering whatever the goal is.

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post #8 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 11:42 AM
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If you are happy with the SVS, PSA is closely related like a half brother. I would definitely consider them as well.
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post #9 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all your inputs. This forum is awesome! I am attaching my home theater pictures. This is a DIY home theater. I built this home theater by myself including the screen, star ceiling, poster light boxes etc. I took lot of references from this forum. The pictures does not do the justice, i took them on my iPhone for the purpose of this post. I need to take better pictures.

In the first picture you can see that I have placed the two SVS cylinders. In the second picture you can see that I have placed the paradigm sub on the rear close to the front row seats.

If I get the fourth sub, should I place it on the other side of my front row seats?

ShadyJ - you mentioned that I can use the paradigm for mid bass and SVS for deep bass. How can I do that? Is it by setting the cutoff frequency? Right now I have disabled the cutoff frequency on the subs so that the receiver can manage it.



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post #10 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 06:56 PM
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That’s a great looking theater you have going for you.. WELL done! cool.gif

EDIT> I would try what shady suggests before you buy another sub. You quite (possibly) might open up a whole new can of worms that you’re not going to like???

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post #11 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Steve. I don't understand what Shady suggested. How can I configure Paradigm subs for mid bass?
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post #12 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 08:35 PM
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I would place the Paradigms in locations where their mid bass is the strongest, and this is typically near the listening position. You might already have done that, but you need an SPL meter to be sure. Likewise, I would place the SVS subs where their deep bass response is the strongest. Measure each position.

Nice looking room by the way. A couple things you might do that may improve the sound: angle the center speaker up so it is aiming at the ear level of your listening position. I would also switch the places of the SVS subs and your tower speakers. The cylinder subs are at a spot where you would really want your towers, and vice versa for the subs. Speakers sound best with stand off distances, so the further away from surfaces the better. It doesn't matter with subs.
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post #13 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Shady! The reason I kept the subs down is bcos I thought it is better to keep the sub on the concrete floor instead of the stage. I think if I move the sub on to the stage, I am concerned about the vibrations generated from the stage.

I will definitely try that tomorrow and let you know the results. Thanks for all your advise.
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post #14 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kishorevakati View Post

Thanks Shady! The reason I kept the subs down is bcos I thought it is better to keep the sub on the concrete floor instead of the stage. I think if I move the sub on to the stage, I am concerned about the vibrations generated from the stage.

I will definitely try that tomorrow and let you know the results. Thanks for all your advise.

If you filled the stage with sand and decoupled it from the walls, the subs will be fine up there. I have 6 18's sitting on my stage with absolutely no issues at all.

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post #15 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kishorevakati View Post

Thanks Shady! The reason I kept the subs down is bcos I thought it is better to keep the sub on the concrete floor instead of the stage. I think if I move the sub on to the stage, I am concerned about the vibrations generated from the stage.

I will definitely try that tomorrow and let you know the results. Thanks for all your advise.

Something to think about.. you’re trying to run three very different subs although the two SVS’s are like, so ok two. While the Paradigm is a good little sealed sub option, it's totally different like said. It’s generally not a good idea to incorporate the two different designs.Yes it can be done, but it involves DSP/Q. It’s hard enough getting things dialed with two - three like tuned/DSP subs alone! So you’re most likely experiencing cancelations. You will need to plot out all placement locations to see what is actually happening in your room. SW’s are picky to a degree and want to go where they measure best. Of course you can override placement at your discretion putting more priority on aesthetics or lack of placement options.

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post #16 of 31 Old 07-15-2013, 11:52 PM
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With four subs in different spots, he probably doesn't have to worry about cancellations. I think there is a good chance he will end up with a half way decent frequency response by just spreading the subs around the room. Of course, he should verify that with measurements, but I don't think there is a need to run out and get a miniDSP just yet unless he insists in a perfectly flat FR.

Kishorevakati, one thing you will want to do to dial them all in is to make sure none of them stress out before the others. If one sub is being pushed too hard, it will add a lot of distortion to the overall sound and mess up everything, so you have to make sure none of them are taking a beating before any of the others. To do this, I would run some bass test tone sweeps at loud volumes with each sub individually and see at what point the cone is experiencing any distress. I would set the gain level on each individual subwoofer at a point where they all roughly start choking at the same volume level on the receiver. I would also use a SPL meter to see what the best combination of phase settings are at your listening position.
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post #17 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 12:18 AM
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With four subs in different spots, he probably doesn't have to worry about cancellations. I think there is a good chance he will end up with a half way decent frequency response by just spreading the subs around the room. Of course, he should verify that with measurements, but I don't think there is a need to run out and get a miniDSP just yet unless he insists in a perfectly flat FR.

Well Ok shady, it kind of seems like you’re going against your own advice in another thread albeit it was a dual discussion. I wouldn't drop 2 G’s to find out myself knowing I was rowing against the tide.
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Ok, so assuming I opt for two subs, since it's apparent that will be necessary and I was considering doing it eventually anyways, THEN which ones would be recommended. Please bear in mind that as much as size is an issue for the primary sub, it's even more of an issue for the secondary (assuming it will be placed at the back of the room, beside the couch, and there isn't much space there). And that makes my earlier question more important: How crucial is it that the two are of the same brand and model? So maybe an LV-12R or XV-15 with a SB12-NSD, for example, or would that be bad to mix and match like that? As mentioned, while I realize going 15" would be better, I just don't think I want a box that big, and I especially don't have room or the desire to spend the kind of money for two of them or one 15" and one 12". And it seems to me that two 12" subs would be better than one 15" one. Remember, I'm not looking to shake my (or the neighbor's) windows or anything, just add that extra depth to pull me into the movie, though I realize that's probably a fine line.

Something else that may affect my decision is if and how much of a military discount is offered by the manufacturer. That could affect the pricing as well. Not sure if you guys know much about which companies offer what as far as that.



shady> You do not want t mix these subs, their performance is just too different for them to blend well.

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post #18 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 12:56 AM
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I agree the ideal is not mixing subs of different types. The OP is already doing that, and doesn't seem to be causing him any problems so far, and also he has some freedom of placement, which can help play to a sub's strength and mitigate its weakness. Plus, an opportunity to get a Sub 12 at a good price shouldn't be passed up, depending on how good of a deal you can get. The only problem is the Sub 2's potentially superior sound quality will be washed away by the lower end subs, but it will still pack a punch, so why not. It isn't an ideal system overall, and in a way it can only be as good as its weakest link (which is probably the DSP-3200), but since the OP doesn't have any crappy subs, he might as well just go with it, that is what I would do. It will be a bit of a balancing act to try to get the subs to play together nicely, but it won't be impossible.
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post #19 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 02:22 AM
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Your HT room is so awesome! Good work there. How much would you estimate it cost you to build it all, not including the speakers or any of that, just the construction of the room?
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post #20 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 02:31 AM
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I agree the ideal is not mixing subs of different types. The OP is already doing that, and doesn't seem to be causing him any problems so far, and also he has some freedom of placement, which can help play to a sub's strength and mitigate its weakness. Plus, an opportunity to get a Sub 12 at a good price shouldn't be passed up, depending on how good of a deal you can get. The only problem is the Sub 2's potentially superior sound quality will be washed away by the lower end subs, but it will still pack a punch, so why not. It isn't an ideal system overall, and in a way it can only be as good as its weakest link (which is probably the DSP-3200), but since the OP doesn't have any crappy subs, he might as well just go with it, that is what I would do. It will be a bit of a balancing act to try to get the subs to play together nicely, but it won't be impossible.



Yes it’s like I said.. it can be done. Is it the most optimal, there we agree. A guy can take 4 like subs and totally hack his response placed wrong or out of phase for that matter. This might be why he is having a problem with his mid bass, or maybe it’s the two different subs? or a combination? I would generally advise to go with what you have if purchasing isn't involved, but in this case it’s sort of a two way deal.. he has both. That being that it’s imo that selling the Sub-12 and picking up a couple more NSD’s would be the better option with the right placement as good as the Sub-12 is, but it seems that the OP wants to go the other route. That’s certainly Ok and what we shall work with then. The +- of the Sub-12 ought to be fairly good and we’re talking near-field, so if all is done right he should realize the upgrade experience.

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post #21 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 03:01 AM
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I have use three different subs twice in my HT and they were not hard to integrate as long as they are similar in power, size and frequency distribution. I recently brought two identical subs and they were much harder to integrate even with DSP. There are lots of people not using identical subs with good result. The identical sub thing is overblown IMHO. By different sub placements in a room even identical subs responses are different. Passive subs make a good choice if the OP is going to buy 3 or 4 since multiple subs can be driven off one amp.

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post #22 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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If I could get the Paradigm monitor Sub12 for $350. It is pre-owned but very little used. Is that a good price?

Another option is I could get Sub12 and sell my DSP 3200. I could then wait and buy another Sub12.

Also, regarding the stage, I did not fill it with sand. I put insulation in it. Is it still ok to move the subs on to the stage. Also, If I do that, my fronts will be around 2 feet in front of the screen, is it ok?

Senkoy - I finished the whole basement which includes this HT room, a man cave (19 X 12), full bath and a small entry way (10X7). The total cost came around roughly $11,500. It does not include the speaker and the projector. I did most of the work myself. I got help for drywall, plumbing and carpet.
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You're asking if you should add a fourth sub, but you haven't stated why you want another sub. Are the three subs you have now inadequate in some way (SPL or low frequency extension)? Or is it just that an odd number of subs upsets you aesthetically?

If you want to upgrade for performance reasons, I'd recommend that you get a tool that will allow you to optimize the subs you already have:

http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/test-measurement/omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system.html

An OmniMic will allow you to measure the frequency response of your subs in their current positions and make it easier to tell if other locations would work better. (Re-run Audyssey after relocating the subs. The required correction will have changed.) Once you've optimized your current setup, do some listening. Are you happy with what you hear? If not, what don't you like? If the low frequencies aren't loud enough, can you just raise the sub's gains in your AVR to get the impact your after? If the subs just don't have the horsepower when you crank it up or if their low frequency extension just doesn't go low enough, then you may need to upgrade to something better rather than adding another sub of the same model.
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post #24 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
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If I could get the Paradigm monitor Sub12 for $350. It is pre-owned but very little used. Is that a good price?

Another option is I could get Sub12 and sell my DSP 3200. I could then wait and buy another Sub12.

Also, regarding the stage, I did not fill it with sand. I put insulation in it. Is it still ok to move the subs on to the stage. Also, If I do that, my fronts will be around 2 feet in front of the screen, is it ok?

Senkoy - I finished the whole basement which includes this HT room, a man cave (19 X 12), full bath and a small entry way (10X7). The total cost came around roughly $11,500. It does not include the speaker and the projector. I did most of the work myself. I got help for drywall, plumbing and carpet.



I dunno.. I mistakenly was looking at the studio 12 which is a totally different sub. I can’t find any +- regarding the sub you speak of. What I do find regarding is that it only bolters my opinion in a different direction. I strongly recommend what henrich suggests first like mentioned in part previously, just adding another sub is not your answer, you need to know what's going on with your response and get things dialed in. I have to do it the old fashioned way with a meter and bass calibration disk.

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post #25 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 10:20 AM
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Ok, the monitor Sub 12 is different, like Steve, I thought you meant the Studio Sub 12, which would be a killer sub. In that case, I agree with steve, it's probably better to optimize what you have than buy another sub. Also, like has been said above, is there anything you feel is missing from the bass sound?
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post #26 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok. I decided not to buy that sub. I am glad that I posted this question before making a decision. I appreciate your inputs.

I currently feel that I am not getting the complete bass impact on the right side seating in my HT setup both on the front and the back. I think it could be because of not balancing the bass with the fourth sub on the right side of my seating area. If I increase the gain, I feel that I am getting too much bass on the left side.

I used Paradigm bass kit to calibrate the Paradigm sub. Other than that I have not used any other subwoofer calibration mechanism.

The tool that Henrich referred is expensive. Is there any less costlier solution or technique to equalize or calibrate the sub woofers?
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post #27 of 31 Old 07-16-2013, 11:34 AM
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post #28 of 31 Old 07-18-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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ht.JPG 120k .JPG file If I follow one of Shady's recommendation to shift the position of the subs and the fronts i.e to move my cylinder Subs on to the stage and fronts below the stage. Then the fronts will be 2.5 feet from the front of the screen, is that ok? I always thought the fronts should be far part from each other but should be on the same line as center and the screen.

I am attaching the photo that shows the existing setup up. I just want to get some general feedback before I do that.
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post #29 of 31 Old 07-18-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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ht.JPG 120k .JPG file If I follow one of Shady's recommendation to shift the position of the subs and the fronts i.e to move my cylinder Subs on to the stage and fronts below the stage. Then the fronts will be 2.5 feet from the front of the screen, is that ok? I always thought the fronts should be far part from each other but should be on the same line as center and the screen.

I am attaching the photo that shows the existing setup up. I just want to get some general feedback before I do that.
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