Proper use of PEQ for sub? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted this on HTS but received no response, so I figure I give it a try here.

I'm a newby to sub EQ and have recently learned how to take measurements using REW. The next step for me is to get a PEQ device and learn how to use it. I'm likely to get a miniDSP within the next month to use with my single sub, then possibly add more subs this year.

I came across a few posts that mentioned if you use too much cut or boost you will eat up the sub's available headroom. I'd certainly like to avoid that if possible. Is there a guide for newbies in the proper use of a PEQ? Any tips or suggestions are most welcome.

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post #2 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 08:35 AM
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This page has some good info: How to Use a Parametric Equalizer
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post #3 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 08:50 AM
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^^ +1 Hey Sat.. I was just thinking of you the other day regarding your 16-46 and what you finally decided to do? Glad to see you're taking your time and going about things right in my 2cent opinion.

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post #4 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 09:34 AM
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IMO Cutting is no problem; whereas boosting is.

That is to say even a paltry 1 dB boost demands 33.33% more power. For example, you find a 1dB dip at 30Hz in your room and at that frequency + master volume + sub trim level in the avr if your 1000 watts subwoofer amplifier is applying 900 watts during an explosion in a movie; you will require 297 more watts to fill that dip by a mere 1dB boost. So, your sub amp will clearly run out of steam playing back that frequency.

Now this is regardless of the type of PEQ you are using may it be BFD, miniDSP, or any other.

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post #5 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

This page has some good info: How to Use a Parametric Equalizer

Thanks. I saw your response on HTS. That was you?

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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

^^ +1 Hey Sat.. I was just thinking of you the other day regarding your 16-46 and what you finally decided to do? Glad to see you're taking your time and going about things right in my 2cent opinion.

Thanks for the encouragement. My 16-46 sounds pretty darn good, so I'm in no rush. My plan is to learn how to get the most out of my 16-46 before getting a new sub(s). I'm hoping this will help me better assess what I want from a new sub(s).

I have pretty much decided any new sub(s) will come from PSA for a variety of reasons. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

IMO Cutting is no problem; whereas boosting is.

That is to say even a paltry 1 dB boost demands 33.33% more power. For example, you find a 1dB dip at 30Hz in your room and at that frequency + master volume + sub trim level in the avr if your 1000 watts subwoofer amplifier is applying 900 watts during an explosion in a movie; you will require 297 more watts to fill that dip by a mere 1dB boost. So, your sub amp will clearly run out of steam playing back that frequency.

Now this is regardless of the type of PEQ you are using may it be BFD, miniDSP, or any other.

Thanks. smile.gif

I do understand about the issues with boosting, but I also read that too much cutting can eat up headroom. I'm a bit confused about issues caused by too much cutting.

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post #6 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 10:16 AM
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I do understand about the issues with boosting, but I also read that too much cutting can eat up headroom. I'm a bit confused about issues caused by too much cutting.

Use the gain dial on your subwoofer to raise the level, if you feel too much cutting has squeezed the life out of your sub.
OR
Change the location of the sub.

If at all you are stuck with just one location in your room, then you have no other option but to tame the response with any PEQ device. And if that demands huge cuts, even then no problem. Raise the sub level either from AVR or from gain knob on the sub amp itself.

Mind you, too many filters rather deteriorate sub response. If you are able to flatten sub response within 1dB from 20Hz to 120Hz using 10 filters, that doesn't mean it sounds as good as it looks on paper. The key is....the fewer the filters; the better the response. It may not be a straight line; but it will sound good.

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post #7 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

This page has some good info: How to Use a Parametric Equalizer

Best piece of wisdom on that page: "Subtractive EQ is the Best EQ".
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post #8 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 01:16 PM
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Well when you cut too much you have to raise the overall level of the subwoofer. Lets say uneqd you get 75db with subwoofer pink noise. Pull down two peaks by 6 db and when you measure pink noise again you get 72 db so you turn up sub level 3 db to get yourself back to 75db. You have now boosted everywhere except where cuts made by 3 db. So if you cut too much you are essentially boosting nulls. One mans cut is another mans boost.
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post #9 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Use the gain dial on your subwoofer to raise the level, if you feel too much cutting has squeezed the life out of your sub.
OR
Change the location of the sub.

If at all you are stuck with just one location in your room, then you have no other option but to tame the response with any PEQ device. And if that demands huge cuts, even then no problem. Raise the sub level either from AVR or from gain knob on the sub amp itself.

Mind you, too many filters rather deteriorate sub response. If you are able to flatten sub response within 1dB from 20Hz to 120Hz using 10 filters, that doesn't mean it sounds as good as it looks on paper. The key is....the fewer the filters; the better the response. It may not be a straight line; but it will sound good.

Thanks. smile.gif

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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Well when you cut too much you have to raise the overall level of the subwoofer. Lets say uneqd you get 75db with subwoofer pink noise. Pull down two peaks by 6 db and when you measure pink noise again you get 72 db so you turn up sub level 3 db to get yourself back to 75db. You have now boosted everywhere except where cuts made by 3 db. So if you cut too much you are essentially boosting nulls. One mans cut is another mans boost.

So is there some sort of guideline to avoid problems?

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post #10 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Thanks. smile.gif
So is there some sort of guideline to avoid problems?

yep add more subs to smooth the response and or room treatments. I found out exactly what luke kamp is descibing when I eq'd my xv15's flat. Being I had a 12db peak at 30hz, pulling it down also requires to boost other frequencies which costs headroom. This is why 3 or 4 subs is ideal imo...this way the FR response is smoothed without losing head room. Some folks on this forum that are using audyssey, anti-mode, bfd, or mini dsp to flatten a response of 1 or 2 subs do not mention how much head room they lost doing so.
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post #11 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

yep add more subs to smooth the response and or room treatments. I found out exactly what luke kamp is descibing when I eq'd my xv15's flat. Being I had a 12db peak at 30hz, pulling it down also requires to boost other frequencies which costs headroom. This is why 3 or 4 subs is ideal imo...this way the FR response is smoothed without losing head room. Some folks on this forum that are using audyssey, anti-mode, bfd, or mini dsp to flatten a response of 1 or 2 subs do not mention how much head room they lost doing so.

So is it a given that any EQ, whether boosting or cutting, will result in the loss of headroom?

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post #12 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 09:54 PM
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Thanks. smile.gif
So is there some sort of guideline to avoid problems?

Yeah, post your measurements here for guidance. wink.gif
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post #13 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, post your measurements here for guidance. wink.gif

Sure thing. Will have to wait until next week though.

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post #14 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

So is it a given that any EQ, whether boosting or cutting, will result in the loss of headroom?

I think if you only pull a few db from a peak then its probably not going to be noticeable. Jim Farina from PSA is going to help me with mine, but I am holding off until I get the third sub. I have been told in the past eq'ing is a last resort. Placement, room treatments, and/or more subs should be considered before eq'ing.
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post #15 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 10:41 PM
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I have been told in the past eq'ing is a last resort. Placement, room treatments, and/or more subs should be considered before eq'ing.

+1. Absolutely correct!!!

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post #16 of 24 Old 07-16-2013, 10:45 PM
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I think if you only pull a few db from a peak then its probably not going to be noticeable.

One can be gracious with cutting but not with boosting. The loss of oomph/punch/chest slam can be compensated by raising the sub level either in the avr or the sub amp itself. And yes EQ should be the last thing if every other effort fails IMO.

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post #17 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 12:11 AM
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Another thing one needs to remember is that in the process of Q it can flavor the bass and effect the SQ. Not sure about my past unit (popular option) but it wound up in a box full of used cables. As carful as I was, just running the signal through it changed the SQ/ flavored the bass with no attenuation. Other options I have and have had, do not exhibit this. It very well might if I used to much Q though.

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post #18 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 10:17 AM
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EQ'ing the the last step in the setup process. If you will not be adding room Tx's or additional sub, then it is time for EQ'ing This way you get the best SQ for whatever you are currently using.

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post #19 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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So far we have;

1. Use EQ only after using other available options, ie best placement possible, setting crossover and distance/phase properly, using additional subs if possible, room treatments.

2. Use EQ sparingly, avoiding boosts if possible.

Have I got this right so far?

Keep the great suggestions coming. smile.gif

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post #20 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 02:03 PM
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Keep the great suggestions coming. smile.gif

Find one more 16-46 smile.gif I know easier said than done. smile.gif

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post #21 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Find one more 16-46 smile.gif I know easier said than done. smile.gif

Yes, that's what started all this. Having no luck finding another 16-46PC+ within a reasonable drive, I started looking at new subs. Part of me is ready for something new after having mine over 10 years. wink.gif

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post #22 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 02:11 PM
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Find one more 16-46 smile.gif I know easier said than done. smile.gif

here is one:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475653/svs-16-46-pc-subwoofer
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post #23 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 02:33 PM
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here is one:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475653/svs-16-46-pc-subwoofer

All be darned! It appears he is not willing to pay shipping though. To ship that thing with todays prices would be prohibitive I would think from plugging in some numbers on the UPS site recently. Good find, sounds like after 10 years Sat is ready for a change though. I just can’t fathom that. confused.gifrolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #24 of 24 Old 07-17-2013, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

here is one:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475653/svs-16-46-pc-subwoofer

Thanks. I did see that. It would be a good 17hr round trip driving......too far my me.

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All be darned! It appears he is not willing to pay shipping though. To ship that thing with todays prices would be prohibitive I would think from plugging in some numbers on the UPS site recently. Good find, sounds like after 10 years Sat is ready for a change though. I just can’t fathom that. confused.gifrolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

After 10 years I'm overdue, right? Actually, since I've been so good I should jump straight to a Triax.........yeah, that sounds about right. biggrin.gif

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