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post #91 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Ok ok.. sticks and stones.. You got me pegged. rolleyes.giftongue.gif



Good one biggrin.gif
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post #92 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 01:05 PM
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Many good points made.


My take; if someone wants the value represented by these things,.. go for it.

~$20k for a custom driver-double 15" 16hz tuned/vented synthetic box, finished in automotive colors/quality, with an outboard phase controller/parametric EQ, w/adjustable HP&LP filters, and it's my understanding it's delivered and set-up. Obviously there's no accounting for taste, and everyone's sense of value is somewhat different.

I get it, wrt driver tech, there's nothing new under the sun,... same with alignment and execution. Even though these drivers are "custom", the tech involved is well vetted and available to all that care to take the plunge. Subwoofing is about low distortion air moving, ... quality subjective appeal of subwoofing is dominated by the skillset of the individual, the tools availed to them, and the room's acoustic.

Yeah, I could best this thing strongly for the same money. Would someone mine? Who knows...

As stated, it's a vented, low tuned, double 15, in a robust enclosure comprised of trick synthetic material. It comes delivered and set-up. IMO, there's value in that to some.

Fwiw, a potential buyer could use a freshly installed/dedicated 240v circuit, and a SMPS LabGruppen/Powersoft amp (or equivalent) to power this thing. For that matter, they'd need subs in multiple (say four) locations, so have four circuits installed and buy four amps (new service eek.gif )



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Next, you are going to tell everyone that quality XLR cables and quality speaker cables are a waste of money.

They're not a waste of money, as I've got the best, and use them on all seven channels, plus all three subwoofer systems. I could do no better .... Canare StarQuad, and Neutrik Black/Gold XLR connector bodies. smile.gif


Thanks
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post #93 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 01:25 PM
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XLR cables when available should be used, certainly. Quality speaker wire....whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? Hopefully not silly expensive marketing crap like Audioquest or WireWorld offerings...

We're talking subs here...

I am new to posting on forums and do appreciate the lesson on how to properly communicate here. . Hopefully, I used the quotation properly.

Passive subs do require speaker wire. Now, I do know that many people still believe that cutting a cheap extension cord and using it as speaker wire sounds just as good as MIT or other named brand wires. Zip cord does absolutely nothing to address oxidation, EMI or RFI inference. These factors can change the quality of the reproduced sound.

Well, you got me on "cliques". I am lazy and rely way too much on MS spell check. Thank you for bringing that mistake to my attention!
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post #94 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 02:08 PM
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Oh boy.....
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post #95 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Oh boy.....

It is okay to have a different opinion, hang on wink.gif
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post #96 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 03:07 PM
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Now, I do know that many people still believe that cutting a cheap extension cord and using it as speaker wire sounds just as good as MIT or other named brand wires.
That fact has always stood up to scrutiny, in both measurements and DBT. Those who claim that expensive cables work better cannot say that.
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Zip cord does absolutely nothing to address oxidation, EMI or RFI inference.
Speaker cables do not suffer from EMI/RFI. But I'm sure there are plenty of snake oil merchants who make that claim. Zip cord is no more prone to oxidation than any other variety of wire.
The more you know about how things work the less likely you are to be hoodwinked by false claims. The inverse is also true, and that's why the best customer for 'high end' gear is the one with lots of money and no knowledge of how audio works.
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post #97 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 03:15 PM
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How does speaker wire and RCA connectors differ. I thought if one suffered from EMI or RFI then the other would as well.
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post #98 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ear 4 Quality View Post

Quote:
XLR cables when available should be used, certainly. Quality speaker wire....whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? Hopefully not silly expensive marketing crap like Audioquest or WireWorld offerings...

We're talking subs here...

I am new to posting on forums and do appreciate the lesson on how to properly communicate here. . Hopefully, I used the quotation properly.

Passive subs do require speaker wire. Now, I do know that many people still believe that cutting a cheap extension cord and using it as speaker wire sounds just as good as MIT or other named brand wires. Zip cord does absolutely nothing to address oxidation, EMI or RFI inference. These factors can change the quality of the reproduced sound.

Well, you got me on "cliques". I am lazy and rely way too much on MS spell check. Thank you for bringing that mistake to my attention!

Almost, you edited out my handle in shortening the quoted message.

All you need is speaker wire of sufficient gauge for your load and length of wire. Maybe you should read this http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Spell checkers won't help with context usually.
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post #99 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


The more you know about how things work the less likely you are to be hoodwinked by false claims.
+1

Monoprice cables work just fine for me. I just got 3 RCA Coax in the mail. Three bucks and some change a piece, works for me. Anything cable for now on comes from Monoprice. I wish I knew of Monoprice years ago when I ran 150ft of ethernet Cat5 cable to my sons room for Xbox. It was painfully expensive.
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post #100 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

It is okay to have a different opinion, hang on wink.gif

Opinion is just fine, everyone is entitled to one...or several. But this is 2013. There have been plenty of tests showing the complete inability of people (with or without "golden ears") to hear the difference between speaker wires in blind tests. There's no opinion to be had. Blind test>>>>>>>>>>>>>opinion.
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post #101 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 05:28 PM
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Opinion is just fine, everyone is entitled to one...or several. But this is 2013. There have been plenty of tests showing the complete inability of people (with or without "golden ears") to hear the difference between speaker wires in blind tests. There's no opinion to be had. Blind test>>>>>>>>>>>>>opinion.

^^+1
Is there a certain knot that's best when hooking up a AVR and speakers? Maybe I should try them all in a blind test and see what's most efficient! rolleyes.gif


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post #102 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Petden View Post

How does speaker wire and RCA connectors differ. I thought if one suffered from EMI or RFI then the other would as well.
The signal passing through an interconnect is subsequently amplified, along with any EMI/RFI that it might pick up. The signal passing through a speaker cable is not.

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post #103 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Opinion is just fine, everyone is entitled to one...or several. But this is 2013. There have been plenty of tests showing the complete inability of people (with or without "golden ears") to hear the difference between speaker wires in blind tests. There's no opinion to be had. Blind test>>>>>>>>>>>>>opinion.

Exactly its 2013 ! and yet here we are still having the same debates and I'm willing to bet more have defected to the better designed, call them exotic (not necessarily expensive) cables than not. Its all about fidelity to my ears and if Mono price has it, I'm buying, the same goes for Audioquest or Wireworld. I didn't start with this stuff but listened carefully to every change I've made to it and to these ears it made a difference for the better .And surely I don't rely on a panel to tell me what sounds good in my setup especially a DBT rolleyes.gif

Yes opinion wink.gif
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post #104 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Exactly its 2013 ! and yet here we are still having the same debates and I'm willing to bet more have defected to the better designed, call them exotic (not necessarily expensive) cables than not. Its all about fidelity to my ears and if Mono price has it, I'm buying, the same goes for Audioquest or Wireworld. I didn't start with this stuff but listened carefully to every change I've made to it and to these ears it made a difference for the better .And surely I don't rely on a panel to tell me what sounds good in my setup especially a DBT rolleyes.gif

Yes opinion wink.gif

I dont believe that, the HiFi market seems to have shrunk a good bit over the last few years. It might not effect the "Uber Elite" like yourself, but the number of dealers that have gone out of business has been substantial. Cable sells keep dealers in business right? That $5k cable is about a X 500 markup over material/manufacturer costs...
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post #105 of 223 Old 07-24-2013, 11:37 PM
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I dont believe that, the HiFi market seems to have shrunk a good bit over the last few years. It might not effect the "Uber Elite" like yourself, but the number of dealers that have gone out of business has been substantial. Cable sells keep dealers in business right? That $5k cable is about a X 500 markup over material/manufacturer costs...

Gosh man! I'm a modest chap not an "Uber Elite" and I for one miss my friends who where dealers that went out of business, some from negligence up top and some due to an emerging internet market that swayed many manufactures away. Look most of the cables I have now and gear for that matter was purchased for below msrp and one or two at almost full simply because it was a dealer and I try to support my community. In fact I'm using some handmade Morrow Audio cables and they have replaced some good mid end AQ stuff at what I consider a fair price in the world of cables. I also during an recent upgrade ( or system consolidation) tried some of the new Mono price Redmere hdmi cables to great effect on the video end and for a great price, I also purchased a 100 ft of 10awg wire from blue jeans cable for running some new surrounds. I like to think at this stage of life, I know a little more of myself, what I like and what I don't and can spot a con or a fake a mile away!
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post #106 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 06:14 AM
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Getting back on track... There is nothing in Wilson's sub that warrants a 21K price tag except for maybe exclusivity (ift hat's a word). There are far too many subs in the in the 2K to 5K price range that can soundly trump the "thor" in terms of performance and features. So why on earth would anyone pay that much for an underachieving sub? The sub for the price Wilson is asking for is garbage. If exclusivity is your bag, have at it. But don't turn around and say that this sub is worth every penny when one can get a sub for half that price that is far more articulate, plays far deeper and much louder. Exclusivity does not equal performance.
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post #107 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 07:31 AM
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A good example is if the Seaton Submersive HP was the Wison Audio Submersive HP it would retail for $9999. Once a price is established it does not change the subwoofer in anyway but it now becomes another overpriced offering from a HighEnd company.
Great Sub Not Great value.
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post #108 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Getting back on track... There is nothing in Wilson's sub that warrants a 21K price tag except for maybe exclusivity (ift hat's a word). There are far too many subs in the in the 2K to 5K price range that can soundly trump the "thor" in terms of performance and features. So why on earth would anyone pay that much for an underachieving sub? The sub for the price Wilson is asking for is garbage. If exclusivity is your bag, have at it. But don't turn around and say that this sub is worth every penny when one can get a sub for half that price that is far more articulate, plays far deeper and much louder. Exclusivity does not equal performance.

Even in terms of exclusivity, the Thor's Hammer is no bargain. Think of what kind of exotic system you could have custom made for $21k. You could get into cabinets made from bronze, natural marble, granite, etc, with engravings and so on. The Thor's hammer is a dull way to make a sub for $21k.
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post #109 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Even in terms of exclusivity, the Thor's Hammer is no bargain. Think of what kind of exotic system you could have custom made for $21k. You could get into cabinets made from bronze, natural marble, granite, etc, with engravings and so on. The Thor's hammer is a dull way to make a sub for $21k.


True enough Shady smile.gif
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post #110 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 09:32 AM
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All’s I am saying is don’t sell yourself short. Listen to everything out there when you are in the market for a new sub. I never said buy the Wilson sub, just audition it to see if it is better or worse than what you have heard. I plan to audition them and the Totem Tribe Sub also. When you see the size of that sub, you are going to laugh. Maybe my needs and wants are very different to some of the members here. I am looking for a sub that can blend well with the main speakers for two channel listen to music. I have not found many subs that can meet my requirements. I have auditioned many subs that can go well below 20Hz and put out a high level of SPLs. However, most of them are very sluggish in their recovery time, causing the bass to sound very muddy. This is usually true with larger drivers. This negative effect is not noticed as much in a home theater application because the cool seat rumbling effect usually overwhelms the listener. However, in critical two channel listening the muddy bass can destroy the reproduced sound.

After reading the comments on this thread, I think that I may have figured out why some individuals are so passionate in the opinions. Again, I am not here to discredit or prove people wrong, I am just giving an opposing opinion that may open some eyes to explore other options.

If you listen to CDs in the red book format; or even worse, the compressed MP3s, then I fully agree in the argument that expensive wires will not make a difference. Furthermore, powering your speakers with a receiver rather than a pre/pro and quality amps holds true to that argument also. The all in one receivers have been killing the audio industry for years. Many experienced audio enthusiasts have learned to accept the sharing of a power supply with the multiple digital amps, the video switcher, the video processor, and the D/A converters to gain the conveniences of all the bells and whistles. The sound quality from these receivers is usually so colorized that they can’t be improved. If you ever get a chance to listen to hi-res digital audio, SACDs, or even vinyl through a vacuum tube amp or high quality mono blocks, you may be surprised by the level of improvements that can be obtained by changing the various weak links in the chain.

Remember, this is just my opinion and the many others who are willing to explore all options to enhance our listening experience.
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post #111 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Getting back on track... There is nothing in Wilson's sub that warrants a 21K price tag except for maybe exclusivity (ift hat's a word). There are far too many subs in the in the 2K to 5K price range that can soundly trump the "thor" in terms of performance and features. So why on earth would anyone pay that much for an underachieving sub? The sub for the price Wilson is asking for is garbage. If exclusivity is your bag, have at it. But don't turn around and say that this sub is worth every penny when one can get a sub for half that price that is far more articulate, plays far deeper and much louder. Exclusivity does not equal performance.

Even in terms of exclusivity, the Thor's Hammer is no bargain. Think of what kind of exotic system you could have custom made for $21k. You could get into cabinets made from bronze, natural marble, granite, etc, with engravings and so on. The Thor's hammer is a dull way to make a sub for $21k.

Exactly, like what Nathan Funk could do for you with that much, and would look FAR better than that Wilson look (altho I suppose YMMV and might actually like the look of Wilson, personally I'd say everything I've seen is fugly).

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post #112 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 09:49 AM
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What you don't understand is that people are fooled by name brands all the time even with facts and proof staring down at them. People fool themselves all the time.
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post #113 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ear 4 Quality View Post

I have auditioned many subs that can go well below 20Hz and put out a high level of SPLs. However, most of them are very sluggish in their recovery time, causing the bass to sound very muddy. This is usually true with larger drivers. This negative effect is not noticed as much in a home theater application because the cool seat rumbling effect usually overwhelms the listener. However, in critical two channel listening the muddy bass can destroy the reproduced sound.
This is the old school way of thinking. This comment is exactly what we are trying to change. 15" and 18" subwoofers no longer have this problem when done correctly.
In 2013 we can have are cake and eat too. smile.gif
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post #114 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ear 4 Quality View Post

All’s I am saying is don’t sell yourself short. Listen to everything out there when you are in the market for a new sub. I never said buy the Wilson sub, just audition it to see if it is better or worse than what you have heard. I plan to audition them and the Totem Tribe Sub also. When you see the size of that sub, you are going to laugh. Maybe my needs and wants are very different to some of the members here. I am looking for a sub that can blend well with the main speakers for two channel listen to music. I have not found many subs that can meet my requirements. I have auditioned many subs that can go well below 20Hz and put out a high level of SPLs. However, most of them are very sluggish in their recovery time, causing the bass to sound very muddy. This is usually true with larger drivers. This negative effect is not noticed as much in a home theater application because the cool seat rumbling effect usually overwhelms the listener. However, in critical two channel listening the muddy bass can destroy the reproduced sound..

I think that's old school thinking that big drivers have sloppy bass. That axiom no longer holds any merit for properly designed drivers and implementation of them into subwoofers. If you are truly adverse to large driver woofers, seek out Paradigm's Sub1 or 2 built on 10" drivers for less than half the price of the Wilson. The thing is, that Wilson is so over priced for what one gets for the sub that it can almost be considered in the same league as Bose...way over priced for the performance one gets.
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post #115 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 11:14 AM
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I have owned 8's, 10's, 12's, 13's, 15's, and 18's and they all sound great! The point is where to we draw the line? Why don't we all have 1000 4 inch drivers if they were faster?
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post #116 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 11:35 AM
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High priced speaker cable to the speakers and has anyone really looked at the wire or connectors used in the speakers? Mostly aluminum connectors to steel wire! Bet you would loose some quality of sound at that point.
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post #117 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 11:43 AM
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High priced speaker cable to the speakers and has anyone really looked at the wire or connectors used in the speakers? Mostly aluminum connectors to steel wire! Bet you would loose some quality of sound at that point.

Or in the sources or the electrical wiring, both in-home and out. There's a reason some of these companies stay in business. Their magic sauce can defy the laws of physics and the known laws of acoustics.
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post #118 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 11:48 AM
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Their magic sauce can defy the laws of physics and the known laws of acoustics.
That's what the cable mountebanks would lead you to think. In order to know that they can't defy the laws of physics one first has to know what they are. You may be able to cheat an honest man, but it's far more difficult to cheat an educated consumer.
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Mostly aluminum connectors to steel wire! Bet you would loose some quality of sound at that point
I've never seen either aluminum connectors or steel wire. The most common connector material is brass, and while it adds additional resistance compared to copper, it's not enough to make any difference. Over that small a distance even steel connectors aren't a problem.

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post #119 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ear 4 Quality View Post

I have auditioned many subs that can go well below 20Hz and put out a high level of SPLs. However, most of them are very sluggish in their recovery time, causing the bass to sound very muddy. This is usually true with larger drivers. This negative effect is not noticed as much in a home theater application because the cool seat rumbling effect usually overwhelms the listener. However, in critical two channel listening the muddy bass can destroy the reproduced sound.

Big drivers ... Sluggish recovery time? Muddy sound?

Subs are bass pumps, as we move up in the spectrum, the needs bring added complexity, etc, but in the sub range the needs are simple; move air as linear as possible.

Whether or not a sub blends well with the remaining system is up to the skill-set and tools of the individual.
Sluggish and muddy sounding is likely the product of the room, and insufficient modal damping.

Sluggish is not a function of driver size, .. quite the contrary.
For a given freq/given SPL;
A big driver only need move a small bit (low distortion),
whereas a small driver must move a huge amount (high potential distortion).

Every octave deeper a driver needs a 4x increase in excursion for an equitable SPL.



Hope this helps smile.gif
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Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #120 of 223 Old 07-25-2013, 01:26 PM
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^^^^ This. Well said.

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