Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 223 Old 07-27-2013, 02:49 PM
FOH
AVS Special Member
 
FOH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,737
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Who knows what was experienced in the testing DS referred to. What we do know is the room is overwhelmingly dominant below the transition frequency. Inexplicable small distances and differences in either sub placement, or listener position, can significantly impact measured response down much lower in frequency than one would typically think is likely to occur.

One such example is what we recently discussed here. The room was typical in size (16' by 11.5' by 8 feet high), and as little as 4" mic placement yielded significant measurable differences down lower than one would intuitively think would happen.

Acoustics possesses many very counter-intuitive phenomena, ... so there's no scientific place for supposition. Similarly, the infinitely complex manner in which we experience audio as listeners, entirely renders our perceptual take on things as unusable scientifically. As objective as we desire to be, it's just not happening. Everything from expectation bias, to perceptual masking simply makes us relatively poor at solid objective work.


"If I hear an A/B comparison that shows big drivers can sound equally controlled and fast as smaller drivers I will change my views until then I am sticking to my beliefs."

You illustrate a good point. But aren't we really poorly equipped to evaluate different subs indoors? That doesn't stop any of us, ... myself included,.. from performing such impromptu evals, they just are fraught with issues and are difficult to trust. However, one can trust the science.


Now, all that said, in my experience ... it would seem to me that there are LF drivers that possess certain characteristics that seem to elicit stronger subjective appeal. Those apparent appealing aspects are independent of cone size, likely tied to motor topology perhaps. Actually, examining the physics/electrical interactions, how could cone size be a factor?

As I said before, if auditioning multiple subs with a set of mains, the time/phase alignment and room LF decay, will play a large role too.

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
FOH is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 223 Old 07-27-2013, 03:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Who knows what was experienced in the testing DS referred to. What we do know is the room is overwhelmingly dominant below the transition frequency. Inexplicable small distances and differences in either sub placement, or listener position, can significantly impact measured response down much lower in frequency than one would typically think is likely to occur.

One such example is what we recently discussed here. The room was typical in size (16' by 11.5' by 8 feet high), and as little as 4" mic placement yielded significant measurable differences down lower than one would intuitively think would happen.

Acoustics possesses many very counter-intuitive phenomena, ... so there's no scientific place for supposition. Similarly, the infinitely complex manner in which we experience audio as listeners, entirely renders our perceptual take on things as unusable scientifically. As objective as we desire to be, it's just not happening. Everything from expectation bias, to perceptual masking simply makes us relatively poor at solid objective work.


"If I hear an A/B comparison that shows big drivers can sound equally controlled and fast as smaller drivers I will change my views until then I am sticking to my beliefs."

You illustrate a good point. But aren't we really poorly equipped to evaluate different subs indoors? That doesn't stop any of us, ... myself included,.. from performing such impromptu evals, they just are fraught with issues and are difficult to trust. However, one can trust the science.


Now, all that said, in my experience ... it would seem to me that there are LF drivers that possess certain characteristics that seem to elicit stronger subjective appeal. Those apparent appealing aspects are independent of cone size, likely tied to motor topology perhaps. Actually, examining the physics/electrical interactions, how could cone size be a factor?

As I said before, if auditioning multiple subs with a set of mains, the time/phase alignment and room LF decay, will play a large role too.

Good post!
audiofan1 is offline  
post #183 of 223 Old 07-28-2013, 05:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

You seem to misunderstand my position, I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right. There are many kinds of bias and some obviously stem from what one thinks is the ideal bass system and what they might own and so forth. People are free to believe what they prefer and I could not care less what they think. I posted my thoughts that larger drivers are sluggish on a topic and it upset a lot of people who queried why so as to find reasons to say I was wrong since my view did not please them, I clarified my position and answered their questions. I don't agree with your assumptions that I like higher THD but you are welcome to your opinion as well of course. Individuals or groups of people always think they are right, who is to say they are wrong? They will never believe it and the other group will always insist you are wrong. You believe science proves bass is bass, I do not. I feel science proves that there are differences (read below), the question is can you hear it and for me the answer is that I can.

As you note there are infinite combinations of differences, if you compare all the graphs posted on data bass of different drivers you will notice differences in their waterfall plots, impulse response and other measurements and these may have contributed to what I heard. The 15 I used is not posted on data bass.

With that I must take my leave of this thread, no point in continuing to argue. Clearly some people can not accept other views.

Good day.
DS, you are right. I did get your position confused with Audiofan and Ear4quality's posts...apologies are in order for that!! :-) You've never tried to convince others to what you subjectively have experienced.

However, you do admit to not having a complete data set to prove your theory. Having said that, shouldn't you conclude that your tests are inconclusive, and therefore your theory as well? Especially in light of Bill, Josh, FOH, and others experts tests that have included all the necessary data? You certainly have the right to your opinion, but concluding you have noticed something different than the experts and admitting you did not have all the data to determine what it is, can you not understand why we are struggling to understand your theory?

What we are saying is that what you're experiencing can be explained to be the contrary if you had the right metrics...like the experts have had. Without that it's like saying you think one subwoofer has much better sound quality than another subwoofer when you listened to them in completely different rooms (ok, somewhat extreme, and not putting you in this camp, but you get the picture...).
dominguez1 is online now  
post #184 of 223 Old 07-28-2013, 01:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

DS, you are right. I did get your position confused with Audiofan and Ear4quality's posts...apologies are in order for that!! :-) You've never tried to convince others to what you subjectively have experienced.

However, you do admit to not having a complete data set to prove your theory. Having said that, shouldn't you conclude that your tests are inconclusive, and therefore your theory as well? Especially in light of Bill, Josh, FOH, and others experts tests that have included all the necessary data? You certainly have the right to your opinion, but concluding you have noticed something different than the experts and admitting you did not have all the data to determine what it is, can you not understand why we are struggling to understand your theory?

What we are saying is that what you're experiencing can be explained to be the contrary if you had the right metrics...like the experts have had. Without that it's like saying you think one subwoofer has much better sound quality than another subwoofer when you listened to them in completely different rooms (ok, somewhat extreme, and not putting you in this camp, but you get the picture...).

I haven't seen any post of yours, other than chiming in at the end of a discussion pointing out the fact, others you listed above are the experts regarding any data or science to back up anything. And I myself don't remember posting anything to sway anyone to my opinion but was simply forced into a position of defending my experience ,while being trying to be convinced by the crew as to why it was wrong eek.gif
audiofan1 is offline  
post #185 of 223 Old 07-28-2013, 03:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post


I haven't seen any post of yours, other than chiming in at the end of a discussion pointing out the fact, others you listed above are the experts regarding any data or science to back up anything. And I myself don't remember posting anything to sway anyone to my opinion but was simply forced into a position of defending my experience ,while being trying to be convinced by the crew as to why it was wrong eek.gif

Why would I need to? I do not hold the burden of proof. I agree with science and the experts. I have experienced this myself with the subs I have owned. I went from a 12in, to dual 18in's, to a pair of 21in drivers. Of the three, the 21's to my ears were the "fastest", "tighest" sounding of the bunch. They also had the best SQ to my ears. 

 

As far as your other comment, you've stated many times in other threads in a matter of words this:

 

  • At the end of the day, you can determine whether sub A is better than sub B using your ears.
  • You cannot tell whether sub A is better than sub B just by data alone
  • Trying to compare subs just by data won't tell you if sub A performs better than sub B. You need to listen to it.
  • Don't listen to people who have never heard a particular sub that say that other subs will perform better. It's impossible for them to know without listening

 

Is this correct? Did I misrepresent you position?

dominguez1 is online now  
post #186 of 223 Old 07-28-2013, 04:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I have experienced this myself with the subs I have owned. I went from a 12in, to dual 18in's, to a pair of 21in drivers. Of the three, the 21's to my ears were the "fastest", "tighest" sounding of the bunch. They also had the best SQ to my ears. 

Maybe you should explain with scientific data why the 21s are faster and tighter than the 12 and 18s, in case someone has a seizure on here that someone dares to have an opinion without providing data to validate their subjective thoughts.

http://xkcd.com/386/
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #187 of 223 Old 07-28-2013, 04:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 209
Seems like a circular argument to me. People with actual audio engineering/designing/testing experience are saying that there's no truth to the smaller drivers are faster/tighter theory. They say all the objective data out there supports there being no direct causation. Some dispute that and say their ears hear different. Dom chimes in that his ears are backing up the objective data, and now he needs to provide data to back that up? Very strange.

But that's just my 2 bits. Carry on.
wth718 is offline  
post #188 of 223 Old 07-28-2013, 11:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Why would I need to? I do not hold the burden of proof. I agree with science and the experts. I have experienced this myself with the subs I have owned. I went from a 12in, to dual 18in's, to a pair of 21in drivers. Of the three, the 21's to my ears were the "fastest", "tighest" sounding of the bunch. They also had the best SQ to my ears. 

As far as your other comment, you've stated many times in other threads in a matter of words this:
  • At the end of the day, you can determine whether sub A is better than sub B using your ears.
  • You cannot tell whether sub A is better than sub B just by data alone
  • Trying to compare subs just by data won't tell you if sub A performs better than sub B. You need to listen to it.
  • Don't listen to people who have never heard a particular sub that say that other subs will perform better. It's impossible for them to know without listening

Is this correct? Did I misrepresent you position?

You are indeed correct ! except how about in one's gathering information on the purchase of a sub he or she is interested in take all information in consideration which will also include listening and data and not just one over the other. I hope that clarifies my stance on the matter as for one I love 15 , 18 and 21inchers as much as the next guy , and understand what the experts have chimed in and said this was never my argument here or any where else. You guys can be a valuable resource for data and for better understanding how things work but perhaps a scalpel instead of pulling out the hammer so you can better communicate that which you know and possibly avoid coming off as contentious on every post on an end users experience with a given sub in there setup. It just may matter to someone wink.gif
audiofan1 is offline  
post #189 of 223 Old 07-28-2013, 11:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Seems like a circular argument to me. People with actual audio engineering/designing/testing experience are saying that there's no truth to the smaller drivers are faster/tighter theory. They say all the objective data out there supports there being no direct causation. Some dispute that and say their ears hear different. Dom chimes in that his ears are backing up the objective data, and now he needs to provide data to back that up? Very strange.

But that's just my 2 bits. Carry on.

So just to be clear ! its indeed in this case ok for listening to back up Data ?

rolleyes.gif
audiofan1 is offline  
post #190 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 04:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

So just to be clear ! its indeed in this case ok for listening to back up Data ?

rolleyes.gif

It's ok for one to do whatever they want. Difference is, some are confirming gobs of data, while some have only opinion. When someone refers to the LMS as slow and muddy when the data shows it to have prodigious output along with ultra-low distortion, and this data is backed up by plenty of users subjective impressions, I tend to give that statement much less credence.
wth718 is offline  
post #191 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 04:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

People with actual audio engineering/designing/testing experience are saying that there's no truth to the smaller drivers are faster/tighter theory.
www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/WooferSpeed.pdf‎
Dan Wiggins owned Adire Audio and got a patent for the XBL2 motor he designed (and probably others).
This is not a new idea or paper: I first read it in 2001 or so.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #192 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 07:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dominguez1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,659
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Why would I need to? I do not hold the burden of proof. I agree with science and the experts. I have experienced this myself with the subs I have owned. I went from a 12in, to dual 18in's, to a pair of 21in drivers. Of the three, the 21's to my ears were the "fastest", "tighest" sounding of the bunch. They also had the best SQ to my ears. 

 

As far as your other comment, you've stated many times in other threads in a matter of words this:

 

  • At the end of the day, you can determine whether sub A is better than sub B using your ears.
  • You cannot tell whether sub A is better than sub B just by data alone
  • Trying to compare subs just by data won't tell you if sub A performs better than sub B. You need to listen to it.
  • Don't listen to people who have never heard a particular sub that say that other subs will perform better. It's impossible for them to know without listening

 

Is this correct? Did I misrepresent you position?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post


You are indeed correct ! except how about in one's gathering information on the purchase of a sub he or she is interested in take all information in consideration which will also include listening and data and not just one over the other. I hope that clarifies my stance on the matter as for one I love 15 , 18 and 21inchers as much as the next guy , and understand what the experts have chimed in and said this was never my argument here or any where else. You guys can be a valuable resource for data and for better understanding how things work but perhaps a scalpel instead of pulling out the hammer so you can better communicate that which you know and possibly avoid coming off as contentious on every post on an end users experience with a given sub in there setup. It just may matter to someone wink.gif

Then your position is inherently flawed...you ears are the worst tools to determine how subs objectively compare against other subs. Sure, you'll have a subjective opinion on which sub YOU prefer, but that is a Preference and only applies to you and only you.

 

Most folks don't care about your preference (this is not meant as a put-down), but want to hear about information about how it could apply to them. The only way to do that is via objective data.

 

Objective data can get you to understand which subs you should be reviewing, and then under controlled tests (or controlled reviews), subjective data becomes more relevant.

Toe and oneeyeblind like this.
dominguez1 is online now  
post #193 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 07:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/WooferSpeed.pdf‎
Dan Wiggins owned Adire Audio and got a patent for the XBL2 motor he designed (and probably others).
This is not a new idea or paper: I first read it in 2001 or so.

Dead link, but the upshot of it is that inductance, not mass (read: woofer size) doesn't determine how fast a driver is. He used Newton's law and formulas, and everything!
wth718 is offline  
post #194 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 08:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1173
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post


Dead link
http://www.stereointegrity.com/docs/WooferSpeed.pdf

If you actually go to the trouble to model drivers with high versus low inductance values you'll find that the inductance required to have more than a slight effect with a subwoofer is so high that few, if any, actually exist. Coil inductance is a major issue in the midrange, but not with subs.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #195 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 08:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post


Dead link, but the upshot of it is that inductance, not mass (read: woofer size) doesn't determine how fast a driver is. He used Newton's law and formulas, and everything!

http://www.diycable.com/main/pdf/WooferSpeed.pdf

Hopefully this works.

Perhaps larger drivers tend to have more inductance due to the generally larger coils they have as I understand from the quote I posted from Tom. Regardless of the technical reason I maintain they sound slow.

The AE TD18H is worth investigating in this regard. Low inductance and 2.5" coil IIRC. I hope to get one at some point, if that one does not do it I am going to write off larger drivers permanently for anything above 40-50Hz, I don't care what AVS "experts" say.

As always, YMMV.
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #196 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 08:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 209
But don't you have a problem with the LMS-U, too? Low inductance, low distortion driver.
wth718 is offline  
post #197 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 08:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shadyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,291
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 438
So how can larger drivers sound slow if they physically aren't moving any slower than smaller woofers?
shadyJ is offline  
post #198 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 08:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

But don't you have a problem with the LMS-U, too? Low inductance, low distortion driver.

Distortion is not the issue my friend. Subjective speed is. I never said the LMS is high distortion.

The LMS and the AE are very different drivers in regards to coil size and inductance if that is indeed why drivers sound "slow", please note I don't claim this is the case, I only hypothesize it might be. I am sure even Ricci will tell you the AE and LMS drivers are very different. The driver measurements on data bass show this as well.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=drivers&col=11&type=0&sort=asc&mfr=-1

Interestingly the AE has a higher Cms too, maybe this plays a part as well. Again only a thought as I don't know for sure.

People might be upset I don't like the "popular driver", no amount of arguing is going to make me like it and I am not sure why I must approve of a driver. If you like it, use it. All that matters is YOU enjoy YOUR system regardless of how it measures. The rest of the "experts" be damned.

The only true measure of a system in my book is the joy gleaned from it by the owner. Everything else is unimportant. Happiness matters, graphs do not. Yes, if Bose works for you, I have no issues with that. It just so happens that sometimes we need to delve into the graphs to understand what makes us happy so we can make better decisions but only when you actually listen with your own ears to something will you know if it makes you happy or not. Graphs will never show this IMO.
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #199 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 09:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

Distortion is not the issue my friend. Subjective speed is. I never said the LMS is high distortion.

The LMS and the AE are very different drivers in regards to coil size and inductance if that is indeed why drivers sound "slow", please note I don't claim this is the case, I only hypothesize it might be. I am sure even Ricci will tell you the AE and LMS drivers are very different. The driver measurements on data bass show this as well.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=drivers&col=11&type=0&sort=asc&mfr=-1

Interestingly the AE has a higher Cms too, maybe this plays a part as well. Again only a thought as I don't know for sure.

People might be upset I don't like the "popular driver", no amount of arguing is going to make me like it and I am not sure why I must approve of a driver. If you like it, use it. All that matters is YOU enjoy YOUR system regardless of how it measures. The rest of the "experts" be damned.

The only true measure of a system in my book is the joy gleaned from it by the owner. Everything else is unimportant. Happiness matters, graphs do not. Yes, if Bose works for you, I have no issues with that. It just so happens that sometimes we need to delve into the graphs to understand what makes us happy so we can make better decisions but only when you actually listen with your own ears to something will you know if it makes you happy or not. Graphs will never show this IMO.

Comprehension is key. I threw low distortion in there, but the main point was low inductance. It was the theory that YOU posited that smaller drivers have lower inductance. A theory not supported by empirical data, btw. But then I point out the hole in your theory--there is an 18" driver that has low inductance and you still claim it to be "slow."

The focus on "AVS experts" is telling, too. A couple posts above someone linked to research from Dan Wiggins. Yeah, that guy. Who actually does/did this for a living. It's not "AVS experts", it's experts.

But as, you said, you like what you like. I don't own an LMS, probably never will. I've gone from a 12 to 2 18s (relatively low inductance SIs) and the difference is huge. But your arguments remind me of the people who deny the science in favor of their own thoughts. You're entitled to them, of course. And I suspect no amount of measurements, equations, etc will convince you--it's a waste of keystrokes to continue to try.
oneeyeblind likes this.
wth718 is offline  
post #200 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 09:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1173
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

your arguments remind me of the people who deny the science in favor of their own thoughts. You're entitled to them, of course. And I suspect no amount of measurements, equations, etc will convince you--it's a waste of keystrokes to continue to try.
Now you know how Galileo felt. wink.gif

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #201 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 11:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Comprehension is key. I threw low distortion in there, but the main point was low inductance. It was the theory that YOU posited that smaller drivers have lower inductance. A theory not supported by empirical data, btw. But then I point out the hole in your theory--there is an 18" driver that has low inductance and you still claim it to be "slow."

The focus on "AVS experts" is telling, too. A couple posts above someone linked to research from Dan Wiggins. Yeah, that guy. Who actually does/did this for a living. It's not "AVS experts", it's experts.

But as, you said, you like what you like. I don't own an LMS, probably never will. I've gone from a 12 to 2 18s (relatively low inductance SIs) and the difference is huge. But your arguments remind me of the people who deny the science in favor of their own thoughts. You're entitled to them, of course. And I suspect no amount of measurements, equations, etc will convince you--it's a waste of keystrokes to continue to try.

Theory is just that, a theory.

I do not consider the LMS low inductance, I consider the AE to be low inductance. Low is relative of course. Maybe you can ask the "experts" which of the 2 has lower inductance in case I am mistaken.

Refresh my memory, does the Adire paper mention somewhere that smaller and larger drivers have the same inductance, generally speaking? Surely they can in theory but do they in actual practice if you were to sample 40-50 models of various 12s,15s and 18s in production today from the pro and home/car audio world, which group would end up having the lowest average inductance?

I can see why you oppose my thoughts, I hope you enjoy your SI 18s. I will probably never own those but I can understand your position now. I wonder how many people who tried to convince me my thoughts were wrong were using 18/21s for their bass system at the time of posting. 2 people so far for sure. Gotta love what we own.

I don't deny science at all. Ricci's tests show that differences exist between drivers and I have said this already or are the "experts" going to tell me all the drivers measure the same on data bass? If so what was the point of measuring any parameter except the CEA numbers?

People are not upset because I can't explain my thoughts with data, they are upset because someone does not like the driver they revere (or others like it which they own) and he provides no data. Of course what we own is awesome, no sluggish bass here.

I have already stated that an A/B comparison will convince me, I believe in what I hear. It is human nature to put faith in what one's own experiences are. The waste of keystrokes applies both ways. I never tried to convince anyone, yet many want to convince me about the error of my ways rather desperately rolleyes.gif
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #202 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 11:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post



Refresh my memory, does the Adire paper mention somewhere that smaller and larger drivers have the same inductance, generally speaking? Surely they can in theory but do they in actual practice if you were to sample 40-50 models of various 12s,15s and 18s in production today from the pro and home/car audio world, which group would end up having the lowest average inductance?

That's the entire point! The design of the specific driver determines inductance, not the si.....oh, never mind. LMAO.
oneeyeblind likes this.
wth718 is offline  
post #203 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 11:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

That's the entire point! The design of the specific driver determines inductance, not the si.....oh, never mind. LMAO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Comprehension is key.

Obviously you can design individual drivers as desired. The point was what driver size in general has the lowest inductance of the drivers currently on the market so that we can understand if there is any correlation with driver size and inductance in actual readily available drivers. Data bass already offers a small amount of data on this but it is not too helpful since most of them are 18s.

It might be interesting to compare AEs TD12s and 15s to their 18.
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #204 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 01:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,976
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Then your position is inherently flawed...you ears are the worst tools to determine how subs objectively compare against other subs. Sure, you'll have a subjective opinion on which sub YOU prefer, but that is a Preference and only applies to you and only you.

Most folks don't care about your preference (this is not meant as a put-down), but want to hear about information about how it could apply to them. The only way to do that is via objective data.

Objective data can get you to understand which subs you should be reviewing, and then under controlled tests (or controlled reviews), subjective data becomes more relevant.

To be fair there are some that do care about the opinion ( preference) of others and some find good results and some don't . Just as I'm also sure that some look at the specs ( objective data) and find good results and some don't. One may come before the other or some try to do both at the same time which I agree subjective data becomes more relevant. And keep in mind there are people that don't care about objective data ( this is not meant as a put down as well) and will buy solely based on the subjective listening experience of another which if you had to break it down by the numbers I'd say its somewhere close to 70% and they are no less music or movie lovers than those that do care , believe it or not I like to think I'm of both camps but will largely depend on my preference in the end as it can sometimes overwhelm my technical logical it must be spec self , but thats just me wink.gif Perhaps as the test themselves get better ( they aren't perfect as there too many variables to take in account) a bridge between what we hear and what's paper will draw closer and find we either hear better than we think or science suggest we do! smile.gif
audiofan1 is offline  
post #205 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 02:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 181
Let me see if i can post something quick here...

DS I have no doubt that you hear differences between various systems. We all do. I am doubtful that it is anything related to the driver smearing the information out over time, due to motor inductance or heavy moving mass though and has more to do with typical differences that are often much larger in scope in my opinion like differences in response shape, distortion profile, loudness, room acoustics etc...


Here are a few signals just for thought. These are captured from CEA-2010 bursts which are shaped 1/3rd octave centered signals with a windowed response and 6.5 cycle duration. They are rather quick. (Note: That these are captured from systems being pushed right to the limits of their output so they will be cleaner if the level is reduced to more sane drive levels. Unfortunately I don't have much of an archive of these from systems that are not being driven so hard. This is what I have currently.)

This is the reference 100Hz centered burst drive signal that should be reproduced as closely as possible.


These 3 signals were all recorded at 100Hz from sealed systems. One is a low inductance 12" driver with dual shorting rings, low MMS and a 2" voice coil. One is an 18" with the most inductance I have measured from a driver yet. It has a long wind 3" voice coil,>400 gram MMS and no shorting rings in the motor. The last one is another 18" with dual shorting rings in the motor much lower inductance and a lighter 2.5" coil. Can anyone guess which is which?












Now consider the waveforms produced above compared with the reference signal and whether there appears to be any noticeable ringing or smearing of one of them as compared to another. Remember the captures above were with the systems driven for all they are worth. These would clean up considerably if the volume was lowered 10 dB. Now consider this pair of recorded waveforms below. One is a system measured outdoors and the second is the same exact system at the same drive level measured in a room.

Here is the REF signal that should be matched...63Hz centered shaped burst...


Here is the outdoor reproduction from the system...


The second measurement is with the same system in a room. That is the only change.

Food for thought on differences in driver speed, control, inductance, tightness, etc...cool.gif
oneeyeblind and audiofan1 like this.
Ricci is offline  
post #206 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 03:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Let me see if i can post something quick here...

DS I have no doubt that you hear differences between various systems. We all do. I am doubtful that it is anything related to the driver smearing the information out over time, due to motor inductance or heavy moving mass though and has more to do with typical differences that are often much larger in scope in my opinion like differences in response shape, distortion profile, loudness, room acoustics etc...

Thanks for the reply Ricci, appreciate a respectful reply. Also its nice to see someone agrees that I heard a difference be it for whatever reason.

While it might be doubtful that I heard a difference from smearing of the time domain, motor inductance and so on, in your opinion would you say it is impossible to hear a difference due these factors in the same room and same frequency response? Is it absolutely out of the question?

I will add that my tests were done in a low SPL manner so as to not stress the systems so that they are in their linear operating range, which is why I do not believe heavy amounts of distortion were a concern. Room acoustics is definitely a factor which is why drivers were tested in pretty much the same location, there might have been 1-3" differences but pretty much the same spot as I took some time to try to make sure it was in the same location or as close as is possible. I drew with a marker on the floor so I think it was pretty close if not exact.

The last waveform comparison of outdoors and in room is especially interesting, much appreciate that one, thank you!
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #207 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 03:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 181
I wouldn't say it is impossible. I just dont know for sure myself at this point and perhaps never will. To me it just seems like there are so many larger factors involved in reproduction of the reference signal it will be hard to isolate it down to individual things like moving mass of the driver, or inductance effects, or motor strength. I may try to get some captures at much lower drive levels from the next couple of systems I test so that they will be a little more representative of actual use at reasonable levels. I have the TD18 which has about as light of an mms and lowest inductance you will find and I also have bruisers which are polar opposite in design which I can try.

When you did these tests what was the frequency range being covered? What was the low pass filter employed? I assume we are talking typical sub range here with a steep low pass employed at 100Hz or lower or are you discussing output up higher in bandwidth?
oneeyeblind and audiofan1 like this.
Ricci is offline  
post #208 of 223 Old 07-29-2013, 04:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
Decadent_Spectre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I wouldn't say it is impossible. I just dont know for sure myself at this point and perhaps never will. To me it just seems like there are so many larger factors involved in reproduction of the reference signal it will be hard to isolate it down to individual things like moving mass of the driver, or inductance effects, or motor strength. I may try to get some captures at much lower drive levels from the next couple of systems I test so that they will be a little more representative of actual use at reasonable levels. I have the TD18 which has about as light of an mms and lowest inductance you will find and I also have bruisers which are polar opposite in design which I can try.

When you did these tests what was the frequency range being covered? What was the low pass filter employed? I assume we are talking typical sub range here with a steep low pass employed at 100Hz or lower or are you discussing output up higher in bandwidth?

I agree that it is almost impossible to determine exactly why they sound different due to complex human perception and a LOT of measurable variables, which is why I choose listening tests for "speed". Data covers distortion,frequency response and output very well but does not fully convey the sound character of a system IMO.

I do not remember the exact LPF/HPF settings since it was quite a while back but I do remember that the response was matched and the intended operating range was 45-150Hz. I chose a higher range because the "speed" comes from the higher frequencies, you are obviously not going to get much speed if you LPF at 50Hz. I felt the higher range would be ideal for my goals of determining subjective speed of the drivers.

Do you have any plans to test AEs TD12s and 15s?
Decadent_Spectre is offline  
post #209 of 223 Old 07-30-2013, 03:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
MemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 648
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Almost, you edited out my handle in shortening the quoted message.

All you need is speaker wire of sufficient gauge for your load and length of wire. Maybe you should read this http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Spell checkers won't help with context usually.
Great link, thank you smile.gif
MemX is offline  
post #210 of 223 Old 07-30-2013, 10:31 AM
FOH
AVS Special Member
 
FOH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,737
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Very interesting Josh, thanks for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

Data covers distortion,frequency response and output very well but does not fully convey the sound character of a system IMO.

You're right.

But if we can hear it, it can be measured and quantified. That doesn't mean we're measuring all the pertinent info. Certainly, data/measuring can't bridge the gap psycho-acoustic gap of interpretation, and subsequently putting into words like the "character" as you said. The science is mature, but it would be somewhat naïve to think we've exhausted all the advancements in audio measuring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

Do you have any plans to test AEs TD12s and 15s?

The drivers you mentioned do seem to have a high subjective appeal and oftentimes are praised for their characteristic "speed, punch", etc. Why? I've got my suspicions but I'm not entirely sure. I know for a fact the TD12 design, when properly employed in the fast bass octaves rolleyes.gif of approx. 50hz-200hz, in a decent room, results in world class coverage of that range.

I have 6 of them used thusly. I've experienced many world class loudspeakers in highly optimized environments, and those AE drivers are tough to beat.

Decadent Spectre, you may or may not have read this, however I believe you would find it interesting. The discussion never fully took flight. But knowing the relationship of inductance, and an amplifiers ability to dump high levels of current into said inductance, is a factor in bass reproduction, I wanted to explore the topic further. The thread is over at Data-Bass, can be found here, and contains some other of my fave topics too, ... namely LRSE.

Latent release of stored energy ... in one form, is something I'm grappling with theoretically, and subjectively in use. I own both a quad 18 IB, and two, double 15 small sealed. So both sides of the theoretical LRSE coin. Although the IB is still considered within the sealed alignment, when executed ideally, the resulting sound is different than typical small sealed subs. One differentiating factor is the low drive levels (low compression) needed relative to the high power levels needed with small sealed. But the other factor is the LRSE, and the freedom at which the cone isn't significantly impacted by the back-wave energy. I digress... redface.gif

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
FOH is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off