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post #211 of 223 Old 07-30-2013, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I wouldn't say it is impossible. I just dont know for sure myself at this point and perhaps never will. To me it just seems like there are so many larger factors involved in reproduction of the reference signal it will be hard to isolate it down to individual things like moving mass of the driver, or inductance effects, or motor strength. I may try to get some captures at much lower drive levels from the next couple of systems I test so that they will be a little more representative of actual use at reasonable levels. I have the TD18 which has about as light of an mms and lowest inductance you will find and I also have bruisers which are polar opposite in design which I can try.

When you did these tests what was the frequency range being covered? What was the low pass filter employed? I assume we are talking typical sub range here with a steep low pass employed at 100Hz or lower or are you discussing output up higher in bandwidth?
Josh, I may have missed it, but have you reviewed/heard this sub?
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post #212 of 223 Old 07-30-2013, 12:14 PM
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Very interesting Josh, thanks for that.
You're right.

But if we can hear it, it can be measured and quantified. That doesn't mean we're measuring all the pertinent info. Certainly, data/measuring can't bridge the gap psycho-acoustic gap of interpretation, and subsequently putting into words like the "character" as you said. The science is mature, but it would be somewhat naïve to think we've exhausted all the advancements in audio measuring.


The drivers you mentioned do seem to have a high subjective appeal and oftentimes are praised for their characteristic "speed, punch", etc. Why? I've got my suspicions but I'm not entirely sure. I know for a fact the TD12 design, when properly employed in the fast bass octaves rolleyes.gif of approx. 50hz-200hz, in a decent room, results in world class coverage of that range.

I have 6 of them used thusly. I've experienced many world class loudspeakers in highly optimized environments, and those AE drivers are tough to beat.

Decadent Spectre, you may or may not have read this, however I believe you would find it interesting. The discussion never fully took flight. But knowing the relationship of inductance, and an amplifiers ability to dump high levels of current into said inductance, is a factor in bass reproduction, I wanted to explore the topic further. The thread is over at Data-Bass, can be found here, and contains some other of my fave topics too, ... namely LRSE.

Latent release of stored energy ... in one form, is something I'm grappling with theoretically, and subjectively in use. I own both a quad 18 IB, and two, double 15 small sealed. So both sides of the theoretical LRSE coin. Although the IB is still considered within the sealed alignment, when executed ideally, the resulting sound is different than typical small sealed subs. One differentiating factor is the low drive levels (low compression) needed relative to the high power levels needed with small sealed. But the other factor is the LRSE, and the freedom at which the cone isn't significantly impacted by the back-wave energy. I digress... redface.gif

This is good stuff and is finally turning into a wonderful discussion wink.gif
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post #213 of 223 Old 07-30-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Very interesting Josh, thanks for that.
You're right.

But if we can hear it, it can be measured and quantified. That doesn't mean we're measuring all the pertinent info. Certainly, data/measuring can't bridge the gap psycho-acoustic gap of interpretation, and subsequently putting into words like the "character" as you said. The science is mature, but it would be somewhat naïve to think we've exhausted all the advancements in audio measuring.

Right on the money. Fully agree with this.

Improving our understanding of psycho-acoustics would be very helpful in better utilizing the current state of the art.

Wouldn't it be superb if someone could say "I want this sound" to the manufacturers of their subs/speakers, the manufacturer gives them PEQ,time delay,phase settings and so on and presto, sound signature achieved.
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post #214 of 223 Old 07-30-2013, 01:34 PM
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Yeah just like in Wierd Science!

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post #215 of 223 Old 07-30-2013, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Very interesting Josh, thanks for that.
You're right.

But if we can hear it, it can be measured and quantified. That doesn't mean we're measuring all the pertinent info. Certainly, data/measuring can't bridge the gap psycho-acoustic gap of interpretation, and subsequently putting into words like the "character" as you said. The science is mature, but it would be somewhat naïve to think we've exhausted all the advancements in audio measuring.

Right on the money. Fully agree with this.

Improving our understanding of psycho-acoustics would be very helpful in better utilizing the current state of the art.

Wouldn't it be superb if someone could say "I want this sound" to the manufacturers of their subs/speakers, the manufacturer gives them PEQ,time delay,phase settings and so on and presto, sound signature achieved.

Yes, but until that time where those, or other, particular parameters might achieve that result for each individual....

Overall I think this thread has done well to explore the subjective vs objective but has room for more. Subjective is great but fairly meaningless from individual to individual.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #216 of 223 Old 07-31-2013, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Very interesting Josh, thanks for that.
You're right.

But if we can hear it, it can be measured and quantified. That doesn't mean we're measuring all the pertinent info. Certainly, data/measuring can't bridge the gap psycho-acoustic gap of interpretation, and subsequently putting into words like the "character" as you said. The science is mature, but it would be somewhat naïve to think we've exhausted all the advancements in audio measuring.

If the science is mature, then we exhausted all the avenues in audio measuring. However, what we do lack is a map of perception or how the brain translates acoustic energy into what we perceive as sound. Hence the subjectiveness to the side of audio. Its also been suggested that we hear with more senses than just our ear. Sight springs to mind. Sight has an extremely large role in what we hear.
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post #217 of 223 Old 07-31-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Its also been suggested that we hear with more senses than just our ear. Sight springs to mind. Sight has an extremely large role in what we hear.
More accurately, sight has an extremely large role in what we think we hear. Whenever sight is introduced into the equation we will think we hear something that may often be quite different that what we really are hearing. Quite literally the only persons who can really come close to knowing what they're hearing are the blind.

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post #218 of 223 Old 07-31-2013, 01:07 PM
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LOL, I do a little experiment every once in a while. I will watch a bass heavy movie scene with my eyes open and replay the same scene with my eyes shut. I would say my eyes are good for an extra 10 db. Now...I wonder if there's a way to add an eye or two somewhere on my face wink.gif
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post #219 of 223 Old 07-31-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

More accurately, sight has an extremely large role in what we think we hear. Whenever sight is introduced into the equation we will think we hear something that may often be quite different that what we really are hearing. Quite literally the only persons who can really come close to knowing what they're hearing are the blind.

Interesting ! as our sight is indeed the dominant one of all our senses! I know there are times by simply dimming the lights or even balancing the lights in the room can change what I'm perceiving from a listening session, say if the light is brighter to my left, most of my attention gets focused on the sound coming from that side of the sound stage! it may sound strange but when I get up to adjust the lighting to a balanced manner, so does the perception of sound stage change and becomes more relaxing and involving.
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post #220 of 223 Old 07-31-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

More accurately, sight has an extremely large role in what we think we hear. Whenever sight is introduced into the equation we will think we hear something that may often be quite different that what we really are hearing. Quite literally the only persons who can really come close to knowing what they're hearing are the blind.

Interesting ! as our sight is indeed the dominant one of all our senses! I know there are times by simply dimming the lights or even balancing the lights in the room can change what I'm perceiving from a listening session, say if the light is brighter to my left, most of my attention gets focused on the sound coming from that side of the sound stage! it may sound strange but when I get up to adjust the lighting to a balanced manner, so does the perception of sound stage change and becomes more relaxing and involving.

So how was your lighting during most of your testing sessions? smile.gif

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post #221 of 223 Old 07-31-2013, 11:19 PM
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So how was your lighting during most of your testing sessions? smile.gif

They where on full blast cranked passed 11 0'clock on the dimmer switch, which subjectively yields an extra 3db at 10hz wink.gif
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post #222 of 223 Old 08-01-2013, 06:28 AM
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Thanks guys for chiming in on the sight bias thing. smile.gif That is why blind listening tests are so important when trying to choose equipment. Unfortunately, the audiophile community poo-poos the very notion and in their minds are able to distinguish between the senses....so they think anyway. smile.gif .

I'm not saying visual cues aren't important when one has to deal with the WAF or if its a personal taste. That all matters as well. smile.gif

So if one cannot tell the difference in performance between a 2/3K sub and the WIlson, and looks are not important, why go for the Wilson. The Paradigm S2 absolutley clobbers this thing every which way you look at. Why the Wilson?
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post #223 of 223 Old 08-01-2013, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Thanks guys for chiming in on the sight bias thing. smile.gif That is why blind listening tests are so important when trying to choose equipment. Unfortunately, the audiophile community poo-poos the very notion and in their minds are able to distinguish between the senses....so they think anyway. smile.gif .
The real hard cores poo-poo anything that pokes holes in their delusions. The number one mantra of the oddiophool is "I know what I'm hearing". One of the first things one learns in Acoustical Engineering 101 is that if the only tools you're using are your ears, you don't. It's no coincidence that oddiophools have never taken Acoustical Engineering 101.
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Why the Wilson?
Because some people will believe anything.

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