2 12" Klipsch or 1 15" HSU - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I've recently had one of the boards on an old sub I had back in college die. It was a KHL ASW15-200B and I have not been able to find any parts for it. As I've given up looking for a new board and most of the other components of that system have already been replaced I started looking at new subs.

While I know anything I get will be much better than what I had I'm a little worried about the money. I'd like to spend only $400, but willing to go much higher if its worth it as I don't plan to replace whatever I get for a long time.

My room is about 12 x 15, but will be moving in the next year to something bigger and maybe with an open design so that's another issue.

So far I really like the HSU VTF-15H. It's already much higher then I'd like to pay at $879, and the $143 for shipping really puts it out of my price range. Does anybody have a free shipping code or do they ever go on sale?

My other option would be 2 Klipsch RW-12d. They are usually around $700 for 2 and just noticed that today 2 of them would only be $560.

My question is it ok to just get 2 Klipsches or do I really need the HSU. I'm used to a 15" sub and the Klipsch maxes out at 24Hz. I'm also worried about port chuffing, but I think that is probably only when turned up really high.

Your help is appreciated,
Mike
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post #2 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 06:01 AM
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Two subs can smooth out room modes, one cannot. In general two twelves will have at least as much output capability as one fifteen. 24Hz response is nothing to sneeze at, probably 95% of those who think they need to go lower than that wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 24Hz and 12Hz.
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post #3 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 06:02 AM
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If you are looking for a good 15" sub on the cheap check out the PA-150. Normally can be had for around 350.00 when submitting a offer. It has a plethora of mid-bass output and decent lowend down to 20hz. I really cant say if the RW-12D is better, but it definately is more linear in response and more popular around here.
I think dual subs is a better option, however if you can get a VTF-15 now and possibly another down the road, then thats the path I would go. The higher end subs such as the VTF-15 will dig much deeper with much more authority and sound quality than the budget variants.
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post #4 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 06:10 AM
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2 subs isn't going to get you a whole lot more output, instead you would get a more even response throughout the room. I can't find a lot of information on your old sub, but a 200 watt amp for a 15" driver leads me to believe you can do a lot better.

If you want something with a high output, but does not dig down much below 25Hz, the Premier Acoustics PA-150 would be a great option. It competes with many higher end subs at 30Hz+ and you should be able to get it for around $400 from www.acousticsounddesign.com

There are a lot of options however in the 500-800 range, and you should lock down a more concise budget. With subs, more money gets your lower extension and higher output. The VTF-15H would be a better choice than the pair of Klipschs in my opinion, but it is over twice what you want to spend.

Edit: This is a helpful site, http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&type=0

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post #5 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 06:26 AM
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^adding a second sub gains plenty of output. 4-6db depending on placement. Smoothing room modes is equally important imo. Also Look at data-bass, the PA-150 put down 93db @ 20hz, while thats not stellar, but it is more output than about every other sub in its price range next to the 12-D. smile.gif
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post #6 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

^adding a second sub gains plenty of output. 4-6db depending on placement. Smoothing room modes is equally important imo. Also Look at data-bass, the PA-150 put down 93db @ 20hz, while thats not stellar, but it is more output than about every other sub in its price range next to the 12-D. smile.gif

Sure you gain some output, but I think the primary purpose of multiple subs is to get a more even response. And yes you are correct about the PA-150, I for some reason was thinking it didn't dig that deep, I am surprised it doesn't get recommended more around here.

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post #7 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 07:07 AM
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If you are willing to spend the cash on a VTF-15H, but you kinda like the idea of having 2 subs and want sub 20hz output. I would suggest dual SVS PB1000. They are only a 10" sub but they are very well built and have a -3db point of 19hz.

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post #8 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 07:31 AM
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In the end if it were my decision, I would go for the VTF or a like sub that comes in a little cheaper. Having two 12D’s makes sence, but if the budget could handle it I would look down the road and go with another like sub if needed. Now if I was considering two $7-1000 ID subs over a $2000 ID sub, I might very well go the dual $7-1000 option.. most likely would.

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post #9 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I will have to look into the PA-150 I haven't considered them.

After thinking about my budget I'm going to go with $800. I could push it to get the HSU which is what I'm leaning towards but can not afford shipping. If I call them up do you think they would give me a deal? Has anyone ever seen them go on sale.

I don't think I really need a sub that will go that low but I would at least like to get to 20Hz. I guess at the end of the day whatever I choose will still be better than what I had
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post #10 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 08:34 AM
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Dare me to mention another product but the XV-15 comes in right at budget. $799 and that’s shipping included.


http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x

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post #11 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 08:37 AM
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I would go for the VTF2 or VTF3 with the door open to adding another later. It's an easier pill to swallow than the $1k shipped VTF15h, and they both dig below 20 Hz. I think they will be cleaner subs than the PA and Klipsch subs as well, although they will not match its upper bass output.
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post #12 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 08:41 AM
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You might find this a help when going over things..


http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/1797/files/Comparison-Table_XV15.png?690

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post #13 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 09:11 AM
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Lol, that bogus chart again? c'mon, you might as well just link to a whole screen of tiled PSA banner ads.
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post #14 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, that bogus chart again? c'mon, you might as well just link to a whole screen of tiled PSA banner ads.

You say it's bogus, go figure rolleyes.gif but its all based on data that's available to anyone willing to search for it. Tom didn't just go and make up the data on the competitors subs.

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post #15 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, that bogus chart again? c'mon, you might as well just link to a whole screen of tiled PSA banner ads.

biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif .. I knew you would especially like that shady. Anyway I only suggested the PSA as a option that fits his budget and fits within his criteria. As you know HSU is not a end-all option as PSA isn’t either. smile.gif

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post #16 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

Sure you gain some output, but I think the primary purpose of multiple subs is to get a more even response. And yes you are correct about the PA-150, I for some reason was thinking it didn't dig that deep, I am surprised it doesn't get recommended more around here.

I agree thats why I am adding a third sub wink.gif

I dont think it gets recomended because of the huge output drop from 63hz to 20hz, but its no different than alot of commercial subs such as the velodyne dd 15+. I mean it will still crank out 100db @ 20hz in room.
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post #17 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

You say it's bogus, go figure rolleyes.gif but its all based on data that's available to anyone willing to search for it. Tom didn't just go and make up the data on the competitors subs.
He didn't make up the data for his competitors subs, but he did make up the data for his own, granted it was an extrapolation based on existing measurements. The chart is slanted to sell PSA subs, but I don't begrudge PSA for creating it to that effect, aside from gaming the CEA numbers. However, I wouldn't post it as a objective comparison between these subs.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

as a whole
I dont think it gets recomended because of the huge output drop from 63hz to 20hz, but its no different than alot of commercial subs such as the velodyne dd 15+. I mean it will still crank out 100db @ 20hz in room.
There is a huge difference between the DD15+ and PA-150. They have hardly anything in common and can't really be compared.
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post #18 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

He didn't make up the data for his competitors subs, but he did make up the data for his own, granted it was an extrapolation based on existing measurements. The chart is slanted to sell PSA subs, but I don't begrudge PSA for creating it to that effect, aside from gaming the CEA numbers. However, I wouldn't post it as a objective comparison between these subs.
There is a huge difference between the DD15+ and PA-150. They have hardly anything in common and can't really be compared.

they do have something in common and thats about a 20-25db roll off from 60-20hz is all i am saying.
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post #19 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 11:26 AM
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My only advise to this is to buy one better sub rather than dual of the so so one. Don't make mistake some folks did here and find themselves keep upgrading which at the end spend a WHOLE lot more. The XV15 is the best value sub now.
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post #20 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

they do have something in common and thats about a 20-25db roll off from 60-20hz is all i am saying.

For the DD15+, that only occurs when pushed at the absolute maximum of its performance at every frequency. It is a result of its limiters too, not the driver or amplification. For most output sweeps, the DD15+ plays flat down to pretty deep levels. For the PA-150 on the other hand, that is its natural FR shape. High output compression will make it worse, of course, but it's basically starting out with that response. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad sub, I still think it is a good deal for the street price (you can talk then down in price from what I hear).
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post #21 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 11:38 AM
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He didn't make up the data for his competitors subs, but he did make up the data for his own, granted it was an extrapolation based on existing measurements. The chart is slanted to sell PSA subs, but I don't begrudge PSA for creating it to that effect, aside from gaming the CEA numbers. However, I wouldn't post it as a objective comparison between these subs.


Now I might be wrong I admit, but I have no doubt if the data was different (leaning towards HSU) that you would post the same if I were to take your inventory. Yes I have seen you recommend other subs here and other forums, but in my mind anyway your bent is HSU and have pretty much admitted the same. Not saying that’s wrong, but it’s something to consider when you offer advice is all... well if the OP is in the know. smile.gif

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post #22 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 11:59 AM
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Now I might be wrong I admit, but I have no doubt if the data was different (leaning towards HSU) that you would post the same if I were to take your inventory. Yes I have seen you recommend other subs here and other forums, but in my mind anyway your bent is HSU and have pretty much admitted the same. Not saying that’s wrong, but it’s something to consider when you offer advice is all... well if the OP is in the know. smile.gif
Measuring speakers takes a laptop, $85 in hardware (a mic) and free software. It's so easy to do that only a fool would post phony data that could later be revealed as false. But then there's K.....rolleyes.gif

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post #23 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Measuring speakers takes a laptop, $85 in hardware (a mic) and free software. It's so easy to do that only a fool would post phony data that could later be revealed as false. But then there's K.....rolleyes.gif

The K goes over my head smile.gif but I can’t imagine Tom posting false numbers concerning his products (which you just alluded to).. I just let some go on as they will considering the subject has came up so many times in the past with certain members.

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post #24 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 07:54 PM
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The K goes over my head smile.gif but I can’t imagine Tom posting false numbers concerning his products (which you just alluded to).. I just let some go on as they will considering the subject has came up so many times in the past with certain members.
Tom, no, but a very well known manufacturer with the first initial K has acquired a well deserved reputation for making impossible sensitivity claims, and guess what? They don't back those claims up with measured SPL charts. The OP need not be terribly concerned, as those impossible claims pretty much apply to their consumer lines of mains and surrounds, not their subs.

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post #25 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Tom, no, but a very well known manufacturer with the first initial K has acquired a well deserved reputation for making impossible sensitivity claims, and guess what? They don't back those claims up with measured SPL charts. The OP need not be terribly concerned, as those impossible claims pretty much apply to their consumer lines of mains and surrounds, not their subs.

I see so I did figure it out then. I edited my post twice and then took it back out. Yeah I have noticed that many times. I run Klipsh and oddly it never has bothered me since it’s sensitivity. Now if it pertained to a SW spec and I ran it, it most assuredly would. Huh! go figure..

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post #26 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 09:48 PM
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Buy the 2 Klipsch, go on with life.

If you still need more bass, look into DIY BillFitzMaurice design.

just 1 more pair of KLIPSCH Classic speakers...
RED AND BLUE=MAROON!

PANASONIC 60" PLASMA 3D, DENON AVR-3312CI, LG BD670 3D NETWORK BRD (iPhone APPs), TOSHIBA HD-XA2 HD DVD, SAMSUNG BD-UP5000 HD DVD/BRD, iPod 8 GB, 13.2: KLIPSCH La Scala 1980 (Crites Rebuilt Type AA Crossovers Sonicaps) FRONT, HERESY II "SIGNATURE EDITION" WIDE, HERESY II CENTER/SURROUND, kg2 SB, kg3/kg1 Front/Rear HEIGHT, RW-12d SW, km-rsw
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post #27 of 34 Old 07-25-2013, 09:56 PM
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Don't miss the discount code, posted in the other thread, if you have an Android type phone.

just 1 more pair of KLIPSCH Classic speakers...
RED AND BLUE=MAROON!

PANASONIC 60" PLASMA 3D, DENON AVR-3312CI, LG BD670 3D NETWORK BRD (iPhone APPs), TOSHIBA HD-XA2 HD DVD, SAMSUNG BD-UP5000 HD DVD/BRD, iPod 8 GB, 13.2: KLIPSCH La Scala 1980 (Crites Rebuilt Type AA Crossovers Sonicaps) FRONT, HERESY II "SIGNATURE EDITION" WIDE, HERESY II CENTER/SURROUND, kg2 SB, kg3/kg1 Front/Rear HEIGHT, RW-12d SW, km-rsw
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post #28 of 34 Old 07-27-2013, 01:51 PM
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Do you feel comfortable building a sub?
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post #29 of 34 Old 07-29-2013, 09:14 AM
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Klipsch is Currently sold out.

just 1 more pair of KLIPSCH Classic speakers...
RED AND BLUE=MAROON!

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post #30 of 34 Old 07-29-2013, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to let everybody know I've decided to wait till I can afford the HSU. If I decide I can't wait any longer I will by the PSA although I don't really want a down-firing speaker the charts on it look amazing and I'm sure I'll be happy with it. Since somebody asked I don't feel comfortable building my own as I am not mechanically inclined. Thanks everyone for your help.
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