For a $2000 budget - what is the best sub out there? Not on SPL but on Fidelity, Tight & Clean bass. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Dear Folks,

I've searched the forum for sub-recommendations and am now suffering from information overload and can't seem to make a list to even narrow down my choices and now I need your help to finalize a sub-woofer for a 5.1ch Home-theater with Active speakers.

Genelec 8040 (G Four) for Left/ Right and 8030 (G Three) for Center/Surrounds.

Before I enter the "request for recommendations" in the prescribed format, I need to mention the Location and WAF:

Location: I'm an American expat based in Bangalore, India and that means fewer options to consider and there is no "used" market to speak of and imported things in general cost nearly double here compared to the base US prices.
WAF: "Any darned thing which is...Not too big, Not too loud. Not too ugly."

1. Budget: $900 to $1200 (base USD prices before taxes, shipping etc).Since I can't buy used, I will also have to add about 70% on top of the base price for duty, shipping ,VAT etc to arrive at my final cost.

2. Size requirements/limits: I think an 8" or 10" sub should be sufficient - should have freq response down to 20 hz. with low distortion - accuracy/transparency is my most important criterion.

3. Room dimensions: I'm presently in an apartment with layout as shown: 3BHK layout.jpg 1045k .jpg file - a 15’ x 16’ Living room open to a 11’ x 11’ Dining room, ceiling height of 10’, flooring is polished marble, walls are brick with cement plaster. The additional consideration is that there is a slight chance that I may be moving to a place with the following layout: 4BHK layout.jpg 775k .jpg file with Living/Dining hall: 25' x 18' open to a Foyer: 9' x 12' with Ceiling height 10'. The setup I choose now will have to work for both - so I should go with sufficient head-room but not so much as to be overwhelming... the sound needs to be contained as far as possible to the Home theater area and not spill over to anywhere else and especially not the neighbors.

4. Primary uses: Usage will be about 70% movies - 30% music.
All videos (avi, mp4, mpg, mkv, divx etc) and music (mp3) files are on hard-disk and will be played via VLC player on the PC, all the speakers will be directly connected to the 5.1ch sound card on the PC using XLR (if available) or through RCA-XLR jack).

5. Listening habits: I do not plan on playing it with blow me off my seats loudness (except may be when the wife is away) but just a set that is accurate/ transparent, without rattling and unwanted vibrations etc...

6. Appearance requirements: It has to be sufficiently compact and good looking to complement the Genelecs but needn't be super-compact or sleek - so as to compromise price or performance...It needs to be made in Europe or North America

7. Timeframe: Can't really buy internet direct as I'm located in India - but I do want the best (most accurate, transparent) sub out there in my price range... therefore I may be willing to wait and buy it when I can.

The dealer recommends the Genelec 7060 for my G4/G3 setup. The 7060 is priced at $2200 and offers Genelec's proprietary Laminar Spiral Enclosure (LSE) [does anyone know how this makes the sub better than everything else] "0" db baffle resonance, driver giving all the SPL and not the cabinets rattling, construction is rock solid and there is no coloration in the Low Frequency. and also power efficient consumes only 120W for an SPL@1m of 108dB and is well integrated with the Genelec speakers and claims it is the best sub in the world....

Frankly I think a good sub needn't cost that much - especially considering the intense competition among the multitude of sub makers and sub-making is a cottage industry of sorts with many people resorting to assembling their own subs as a weekend-DIY.

DIY is also an option but it still has to deliver the 20Hz, tight bass, low distortion, no rattling, power efficient etc comparable to Genelec... I don't think I can achieve that in a million years...

but if I want the "Best" sub there is.. not just "very good or excellent" I assume there are very few choices... If price is no concern which are the subs out there with tight bass, low distortion, low waste due to heat or noise, accuracy/transparency,etc...(loudness and bomb like air/earth moving ability is not a criterion for me) - it has to have some studio cred and audiophile/pro/musician cred and look tastefully (no flashy/glossy stuff) done too...

I would like to know which is the best sub out there - based on independently verifiable measurements - even if I were to bump my budget up to $2200 - I want to make sure I am getting the best - if I'm spending that kind of cash...
key requirement: It has to be made, if not completely, at least mostly, in USA/Canada/EU/Aus/Nz/Japan.

Thanks in advance for all responses...
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post #2 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 07:29 AM
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Your requirements (small, cheap, 20 Hz response, no ID brands) are contradictory. If you're willing to let go of the 20 Hz goal, Velodyne's Impact-10 might be worth a look:
http://velodyne.com/subwoofers/impact-series/impact-10.html

Velodyne's EQ-Max 10 offers better performance, but it's larger, more expensive, and less attractive:
http://velodyne.com/subwoofers/eq-max-series/eq-max-10.html
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post #3 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 07:47 AM
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Is DIY an option or would you be able to get someone to make a custom box for you ?
That would allow ID kits like Daytons, Rythmiks and even Peerless with matching amps to be purchased states side and ship to your location.
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post #4 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

Your requirements (small, cheap, 20 Hz response, no ID brands) are contradictory.

Actually I'm not so sure about cheap being a criteria - I just want to make sure that if I'm buying a sub for any price.. (be it $1000 or close to around $2200 as the Genelec 7060) - I want to be absolutely sure its the best in the category

My dealer wants me to believe that the Genelec subs are absolutely the best sub in the world and the 7060 is worth the $2200 price tag... even if this were the truth - I'd want to verify before I write the check...

So all I'm looking for is a sub that is as good as the competing Genelec 7060 and should be as good as the brand/performance of the Genelec 8040/8030 speakers that it will be working along side.
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post #5 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 08:01 AM
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There is no 8-10" subwoofer thats going to fill that area with copious amounts of clean bass. The Genelec is probably marginal for the cost. 108db 1m half space is terrible for 2200.00. There are Internet direct subs that can do that in the 500.00 range and dig deeper. I would be looking for dual subs to smooth the bass response as well.

Check out Rythmik, PSA, and SVS website...these would be companies I would start looking at.
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post #6 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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@qguy - since I won't be able to match Genelec's output specs (20Hz, tight bass, low distortion, efficient etc) in a DIY - I'd rather not venture...
may be later on... as a second complementary sub...

@basshead81

Considering I started out with a budget of $2500 for the whole 5.1 speakers and am now going to spend nearly twice that much just for 5 Genelec speakers - I'd like to know which brand is equal to Genelec in the subwoofer category and then I can begin to look at their models.

The sub brand and performance has to absolutely be a worthy competitor/partner to Genelec that can do justice to their speakers...

Which of these subwoofer brands have the unassailable studio/musician cred as Genelec?
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post #7 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

@qguy - since I won't be able to match Genelec's output specs (20Hz, tight bass, low distortion, efficient etc) in a DIY - I'd rather not venture...
may be later on... as a second complementary sub...

@basshead81

Considering I started out with a budget of $2500 for the whole 5.1 speakers and am now going to spend nearly twice that much just for 5 Genelec speakers - I'd like to know which brand is equal to Genelec in the subwoofer category and then I can begin to look at their models.

The sub brand and performance has to absolutely be a worthy competitor/partner to Genelec that can do justice to their speakers...

Which of these subwoofer brands have the unassailable studio/musician cred as Genelec?

I just listed 3 companies that will blow the genelec away in price versus performance and sound quality...start researching. smile.gif

Rythmik LV12- 589.00

SVS PB-12NSD- 769.00

PSA XS-15- 749.00

These three will destroy that 7060.

go here data-bass.com/systems

these are measurements 2m rms open ground plane. so subtract about 9db from the genelec numbers.
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post #8 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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@basshead1 - Thanks for those comparison charts. These show the SPL comparison and I'd like to know if there are comparisons of fidelity/transparency/distortion.... those are the criteria that matter most to me... and I'm not saying the Genelec wins these... but that is what the dealer claims and I'd like to know who comes close...

The SVS names comes-up most often as the best sub for price/performance...and they do have a dealer in India...

any other brands? how about Cerwin Vega, HSU, B & W?
How about the Focal CMS SUB or ADAM Sub8?

There seem to be so many brands - just need to find the ones that are a cut above the rest...
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post #9 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

These show the SPL comparison and I'd like to know if there are comparisons of fidelity/transparency/distortion.... those are the criteria that matter most to me...

Data-bass has all those numbers and more. Dig deeper. smile.gif
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post #10 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 12:06 PM
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The shipping and import fees are brutal. If you can get a good driver and amplifier there in India, you could just hire a cabinet maker to build a cabinet, and you will have a much, much better sub for the same cost of what you could import from the US or Europe. Remember that you will need a converter for a subwoofer that isn't compatible to the electrical voltage service standards there. Hsu, Rythmik, and SVS all have switches for electrical compliance so you only need a plug adapter with them, but, like I said, importing a sub is a relatively poor value. If you have to import anything, just import the driver. I would encourage you to look around the DIY section for ideas on what you could have built.
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post #11 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 12:31 PM
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The SVS names comes-up most often as the best sub for price/performance...and they do have a dealer in India...

That would be all I would need to make my decision unless I were to decide on DIY. I go the DIY rout when I do for more reasons than what some might consider though. If you’re not really into it, it might not be that wise of a decision and the being in India thing, I have no idea what that would entail when you order the amp, driver and such. I guess it all comes down to what fits in to your criteria. Since DIY was brought up to you as a consideration, maybe that’s a good reason not to?? Only you can say.

EDIT> This is not to down-play what shady suggests.. you will not know until you have at least looked.

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post #12 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The shipping and import fees are brutal. If you can get a good driver and amplifier there in India, you could just hire a cabinet maker to build a cabinet, and you will have a much, much better sub for the same cost of what you could import from the US or Europe. Remember that you will need a converter for a subwoofer that isn't compatible to the electrical voltage service standards there. Hsu, Rythmik, and SVS all have switches for electrical compliance so you only need a plug adapter with them, but, like I said, importing a sub is a relatively poor value. If you have to import anything, just import the driver. I would encourage you to look around the DIY section for ideas on what you could have built.

I am not trying to start a debate with you however I notice you have been pushing DIY lately...which is cool but don't you think folks would be in the DIY section if that's what they were looking for?
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post #13 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I am not trying to start a debate with you however I notice you have been pushing DIY lately...which is cool but don't you think folks would be in the DIY section if that's what they were looking for?

The OP mentioned he was open to DIY. I don't always suggest it, but for those who are looking for a lot of bang for their buck or are building their own dedicated theater, I would. Anyone building their own theater room is likely to be comfortable with the woodwork of assembling their cabinets, and after that it is probably a lot easier than they imagine. It's what I would have done if I had to redo everything. The performance vs dollar ratio is so high that it is a no-brainer for anyone who already has the tools and skills to put together a cabinet, if they have the time to take on a small project.
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post #14 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The OP mentioned he was open to DIY. I don't always suggest it, but for those who are looking for a lot of bang for their buck or are building their own dedicated theater, I would. Anyone building their own theater room is likely to be comfortable with the woodwork of assembling their cabinets, and after that it is probably a lot easier than they imagine. It's what I would have done if I had to redo everything. The performance vs dollar ratio is so high that it is a no-brainer for anyone who already has the tools and skills to put together a cabinet, if they have the time to take on a small project.

I agree DIY is ultimate bang for buck, I was just curious since you seem to have switched from the HSU bandwagon to DIY. smile.gif
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post #15 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 04:41 PM
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I have been in the audio hobby for about 30 years and all dealers will tell you that their product is the best. :-)

You mentioned that SVS has a dealer in India, what are you waiting for ? Check out large ported subwoofers or the smaller sealed subwoofers. I dont know the prices of SVS in india, but if their close to US prices, you have a winner.
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post #16 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I agree DIY is ultimate bang for buck, I was just curious since you seem to have switched from the HSU bandwagon to DIY. smile.gif

Kind of a odd considering he’s never built one.
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You mentioned that SVS has a dealer in India, what are you waiting for ? Check out large ported subwoofers or the smaller sealed subwoofers. I dont know the prices of SVS in india, but if their close to US prices, you have a winner.

PF! Oh yah... I am surprised SVS is in India though.. Ed sure gets around. wink.gif

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post #17 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

You mentioned that SVS has a dealer in India, what are you waiting for ? Check out large ported subwoofers or the smaller sealed subwoofers. I dont know the prices of SVS in india, but if their close to US prices, you have a winner.

+1
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb13-ultra
http://hometheaterreview.com/svs-sb13-ultra-subwoofer-reviewed/
http://www.audire.in/#/svs
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post #18 of 126 Old 08-06-2013, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

The SVS names comes-up most often as the best sub for price/performance...and they do have a dealer in India...

Since SVS has a dealer in India, give them a call and find out your local prices. I know from other international AVS members that SVS is still often a better bargain internationally than traditional speaker company subs.

You might also email the main distributor in the US and ask them what sub they recommend as comparable to the Genelec 7060. My guess is that there is a good chance that SVS has a sub that is much cheaper than the 7060, allowing you then to purchase a processor for bass management, etc.

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post #19 of 126 Old 08-09-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.
I'm not just buying SQ but the experience of a brand - its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it - the halo effect if you will. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA), PMC, ATC, Focal, Barefoot etc do

HSU (made in China) is out...
and SVS seems too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India and firm prices - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic
btw: I can't go demo the SVS as it is a 10 hr drive to the neighboring state and they don't have a try it and return policy and shipping costs and interstate taxes are high...

I just need a couple of more recommendations to do a 3 or 4 way shoot-out and make a final decsion
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post #20 of 126 Old 08-09-2013, 09:56 PM
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Genelec's top sub used to use nearly the same driver as the SVS NSD, but cost waaay more. The SVS are very high quality subs. The KK sub wouldn't be very bad, but is not going to have any deep bass, although I think it could have significant upper bass output.
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post #21 of 126 Old 08-09-2013, 10:17 PM
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Man, you don't need help, you need common sense. So you don't want a supe up turbo charge civic but you want a Acura with no motor.
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Man, you don't need help, you need common sense. So you don't want a supe up turbo charge civic but you want a Acura with no motor.

I'm neither a "rice rocket" guy nor a "lexus/acura or even a "Benz" guy. I like the Mustang, Vette and Viper - but they are too in your face and unrefined.

The BMW 3 or X1 or their M line is my kind of car - brandwise and performance wise... may be even a Subaru WRX... or the old Jeep Wranglers

therefore if someone recommends a souped-up rice rocket like a civic - I'd say good for you...
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post #23 of 126 Old 08-09-2013, 11:24 PM
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Basically you want to do a 3 or 4 way shootout, So SVS is out as its too pedestrian for you and HSU is made in China. Aside from Genelec, what else is there in India that you can choose from ?

For Fidelity, Among the ID subwoofers, Rythmik is one of the contenders and is known to be very accurate, sadly you would be buying it blind as there is no dealer in India. I bought mine based on peer reviews and have been very happy with mine.

How are you going to compare them based on fidelity if your dealer only has the Genelec ? Since SVS has a dealer in India and makes it too common, than that leaves you with subwoofers that HAS NO dealers in India.

You may want to re-think your strategy on how to choose a subwoofer smile.gif
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HSU (made in China) is out...
and SVS seems too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India and firm prices - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic
I just need a couple of more recommendations to do a 3 or 4 way shoot-out and make a final decsion
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post #24 of 126 Old 08-09-2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.
I'm not just buying SQ but the experience of a brand - its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it - the halo effect if you will. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA), PMC, ATC, Focal, Barefoot etc do

HSU (made in China) is out...
and SVS seems too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India and firm prices - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic
btw: I can't go demo the SVS as it is a 10 hr drive to the neighboring state and they don't have a try it and return policy and shipping costs and interstate taxes are high...

I just need a couple of more recommendations to do a 3 or 4 way shoot-out and make a final decsion

If you want to rationalize your decision to buy the Genelec based on brand name, that's fine. But you are in the wrong forum seeking advice. Be sure to pick yourself up some Beats Studio headphones, too. LOL

BTW: There are WAY more distributors of Genelec than SVS: http://www.genelec.com/shop/distributors-network/

So much for the the "commonness" of SVS compared to Genelec rolleyes.gif
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post #25 of 126 Old 08-10-2013, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.
I'm not just buying SQ but the experience of a brand - its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it - the halo effect if you will. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA), PMC, ATC, Focal, Barefoot etc do

HSU (made in China) is out...
and SVS seems too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India and firm prices - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic
btw: I can't go demo the SVS as it is a 10 hr drive to the neighboring state and they don't have a try it and return policy and shipping costs and interstate taxes are high...

I just need a couple of more recommendations to do a 3 or 4 way shoot-out and make a final decsion

We don't have a dealer in India but we do have dealers in Singapore and Malaysia if that helps. Also big part of our customers are recording or mastering studios like Sterling Sound in NY, Recording Studio of School of Music at Texas State University or Sweatshop Studios in NY. I think the F12SE will cover all your expectations and more. Also it will blend very well with your Genelec speakers.

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
Rythmik Audio

 

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post #26 of 126 Old 08-10-2013, 01:14 AM
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Well I'm trying to say is for 2 grand and you want brand name dealer items, you ain't gonna get much. With ID you may get more and with DIY even more. Svs pb13 is one of the top 10 sub regardless the price period. A genelec hts4b 12" twin pr with 400w will cost you over 3 grand. Genelec has some very nice sub but it ain't 2 grand.
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post #27 of 126 Old 08-11-2013, 12:52 PM
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Your requirements:
- Max budget: $2200 after taxes & shipping to India (~ $1500 before T&S)
- Size: 8" or 10" driver
- Appearance: Compact and good looking
- Performance: Must be the best sub there is, not just "very good or excellent". It has to deliver 20Hz, tight bass, low distortion, no rattling, and power efficiency comparable to Genelec.
- "Unassailable studio/musician cred"
- The brand must have a storied past or a legend behind it.
- You want the bragging rights of finding a unique brand that is not for the common man but is for only those in the know with a truly refined taste.

You've shot down some recommendations that offer better performance than the Genelec since they don't meet your "studio cred/storied past/bragging rights" requirements. You seem to be asking for a sub with the mystique & performance of an Aston Martin at a Chevrolet price. Your requirements, when viewed in total, are a bit unrealistic. There's no "best sub". You just have to look at what's available and go with whatever offers the best compromise. The sub with the fewest compromises would be a custom built to your exact specifications. Companies like Funk Audio will do this, but your budget is a bit tight for a custom.

If you want the best performance for your limited budget then you should abandon your size/storied past/bragging rights requirements. There aren't any 10" driver subs that offer bragging rights among "those in the know" unless you're considering subs with multiple drivers (eg. Paradigm Sub 2 - six 10" drivers, $10,000).

Rythmik has a lineup of highly regarded servo subs at reasonable prices. Salk Sound resells Rythmik subs after upgrading them with a high-end veneer of your choosing. A Salk/Rythmik F12 might be within your budget:

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html
http://www.salksound.com/salkrythmik%20-%20home.htm

Not sure if Salk would ship to India, but it might be worth looking into. If that doesn't tickle your fancy, perhaps you should just sign on the dotted line for that Genelec 7060.
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post #28 of 126 Old 08-11-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grnsr View Post

Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.

If you look around these forums, you won't find many Genelec owners. So don't expect many people to be able to give you a first hand comparison or shoot-out involving the Genelec 7060.
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I'm not just buying SQ but the experience of a brand - its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it - the halo effect if you will. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA), PMC, ATC, Focal, Barefoot etc do

Personally I think this "experience of a brand" is overrated, especially when it comes to subwoofers. Say you got the Genelec (or another brand which you considered storied enough) but its performance is behind other ID brands. Would that make you happy? You can brag that "I got this XXX brand subwoofer" but might not be able to brag about its actual performance.
Quote:
and SVS seems too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India and firm prices - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic

The perception that SVS is common, is probably just that... perception. When you check the forums there is a strong leaning towards ID brands, hence SVS comes up more. Anyway, how ever you perceive SVS (as common as Toyota/Honda) it is likely that for the equivalent price the SVS will outperform the Genelec (BMW). Hope this won't cause any cognitive dissonance issues.
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post #29 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 05:42 AM
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If you want to rationalize your decision to buy the Genelec based on brand name, that's fine. But you are in the wrong forum seeking advice. Be sure to pick yourself up some Beats Studio headphones, too. LOL

Quote:
The perception that SVS is common, is probably just that... perception. When you check the forums there is a strong leaning towards ID brands, hence SVS comes up more. Anyway, how ever you perceive SVS (as common as Toyota/Honda) it is likely that for the equivalent price the SVS will outperform the Genelec (BMW). Hope this won't cause any cognitive dissonance issues.
^^ +1

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post #30 of 126 Old 08-12-2013, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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after going through some reviews...getting maturer...
I'll drop the storied past/legend requirement.. even the KK DXDs it seems are made in china...

I am looking for performance and value...at the same time I'm not a fan boy or groupie of some brand (even if its BMW, B&W or Genelec)

I simply do not want a product made in China.. after coming this far from my original budget...to some this may have sounded prejudiced if read in snippets...
keep in mind I started at $2500 for the whole 5.1ch + receiver and was looking at B&W 600 series... but after hearing the 800Diamonds... the 600 was a non-event... the Genelec 8260 was what brought me to the brand...the Genelec 8260 performance was quite comparable to the 800Diamonds at 1/3 the price...
add in "the halo effect and reputation" and I'm now seriously considering their lower line of products...

but in short... at the price band I'm willing to spend - I'd simply not want to see a "made in china" tag - which immediately implies "cost savings, mass produced and that too in a country which is a competitor for resources and power and was at one point not long ago in our history "the enemy" ...
again if I were looking in the < $1000 for the whole enchilada.. I could expect no other choice

and now am at $6500 for just the 5.1 speakers and this is before shipping, taxes and customs duties - my final cost will be around $10,000.

now taking the above into account - could you recommend speakers/subwoofers that have true fidelity...

basically if a musician were to play whatever the instrument and record it and play it back on the speaker - it should be indistinguishable...in a blind test... or by actual sensitive measurements both in frequency and time... i know this is the ideal and doesn't actually exist - but whatever comes the closest in my budget is what I'm looking for the learned and experienced and passionate members of these forums to help me with..

that is what I'm looking for...fidelity - the "brand/history" etc is an offshoot of its consistent performance and the experts and market recognizing the same over time...

my new signature will be...
"give me fidelity or give me death".

i'm thinking of the following requirements to obtain the best fidelity and vibration free bass:

1. Made in NA/EU - this is a must have
2. Sealed (went throught sealed vs ported debate and it seems Sealed is better for fidelity...except for the Genelec's LSE)
3. 8" or 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass
4. Needs to have XLR, RCA inputs
5. Low pass filter and other controls
6. LFE+Sum-out for daisy chaining
7. Auto-power on signal (nice to have feature), with volume remote etc

The ADAM Sub8 and Sub10 are not duals but they are within my price range and satisfy most other criteria.

It seems the Velodynes, Paradigms, Power Sound Audio, Seaton, Rhythmik and JL Audio are made in NA - am I right?

any other brands?

and heaven forbid - should nothing exist - I may need the help of the esteemed members of the forum to help me on a DIY.
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