Sub advice: my trusty Velodyne HGS-18 died - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

There are 2 sealed subs that fall within the op's budget that will out perform the velodyne 18 and that is the PSA XS30 and Rythmik F25...the F25 is huge, so I thought the XS30 was the best option. The F15HP might best the velodyne but I am not sure on that.

Basshead - in your opinion should I be considering the SVS SB-13 Ultra considering my 2k budget and room? For some reason I got fixated on that sub from all the great reviews and praise that it gets. Also the Rythmik 25 wont work, too tall for my install.
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post #32 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gussboy View Post

Basshead - in your opinion should I be considering the SVS SB-13 Ultra considering my 2k budget and room? For some reason I got fixated on that sub from all the great reviews and praise that it gets. Also the Rythmik 25 wont work, too tall for my install.

The SVS SB13 is a solid sub, but think of PSA as the new breed of SVS. Tom V. @PSA is a former cofounder of SVS. Tom knows a thing or 2 about building subs. SVS is built china, PSA is American made and assembled minus the amp. They both have 5yr warranty and Top notch customer support.

That being said the XS30 will be on par with the SB13 in the sound quality department, but will have significant more output...especially in the 40-63hz range. Also you can expect single digit extension in that small room. Both are great subs, you will hear more about the SB13 because the XS30 is not even a year old. I dont own XS30's but a member here has dual PB13U's and a single XS30 and he loves the new PSA sub. It has the slam factor that his pb13's were lacking.
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post #33 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The Funk is a awsome sub and I would expect it to be another level above the XS30. However i was simply suggesting a sub that will maximize performance and still fall within the op's budget. The Funk is not in his budget so I am not sure why its even being mentioned.

The op also does not want to lose any performance, so I am not sure why the rythmik f12 or fv12 is being mentioned.

There are 2 sealed subs that fall within the op's budget that will out perform the velodyne 18 and that is the PSA XS30 and Rythmik F25...the F25 is huge, so I thought the XS30 was the best option.

Now instead of further cluttering the op's thread, why not offer suggestions that meet his criteria or stay out of his thread to avoid further confusion?
The Funk sub is only $500 over the OP's $2k budget, and when you factor in the summer sale whereby that sub is normally $3.2k, I would regard it as a very compelling option. Besides, are you so sure that the XS30 can outperform a HGS-18? It might be an older sub, but it is a beast. With respect to sound quality, the XS30 could very easily be a downgrade. Just take a look at the HGS 10 driver:

The motor in Velodyne's 10" driver looks a lot more potent than PSA's 15"! Supposedly the HGS-18 shares this motor. While the mass of an 18" woofer is going to be quite a bit more than that of a 10", that is still likely to be a tightly controlled sound, especially when you factor in Velodyne's servo control and 1250 watt amp. The XS30 is likely to be a step down from that. Now consider the power and control of the 18.0 would be much greater than even the HGS.
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post #34 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:36 PM
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$500 for the passive version, but he's still going to need a decent amp to power it. And putting a cheap amp with a passive 18.0 is almost a crime.

I really do like Nathan's subs but with the OP's budget he's better off getting something else. Besides I really don't see Funk subs catering to wards the budget minded guy, their subs would seem to appeal more to the guy wanted something exotic and not worry about what it costs.
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post #35 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The Funk sub is only $500 over the OP's $2k budget, and when you factor in the summer sale whereby that sub is normally $3.2k, I would regard it as a very compelling option. Besides, are you so sure that the XS30 can outperform a HGS-18? It might be an older sub, but it is a beast. With respect to sound quality, the XS30 could very easily be a downgrade. Just take a look at the HGS 10 driver:

The motor in Velodyne's 10" driver looks a lot more potent than PSA's 15"! Supposedly the HGS-18 shares this motor. While the mass of an 18" woofer is going to be quite a bit more than that of a 10", that is still likely to be a tightly controlled sound, especially when you factor in Velodyne's servo control and 1250 watt amp. The XS30 is likely to be a step down from that. Now consider the power and control of the 18.0 would be much greater than even the HGS.

Have you heard a XS30 yet? Or any PSA sub?
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post #36 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:41 PM
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500.00 is significant so your point is moot at best. The xs30 utilizes two 15" drivers, so I could see it out performing a single 18" even if its higher quality. Go back and read the reviews on audioholics about the hgs-18. Its amp limited to 95db 2m outdoors @ 20hz. The XS30 will do better than that.
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post #37 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

That being said the XS30 will be on par with the SB13 in the sound quality department,

I doubt it would be close at all. Just compare the measurements of the ported versions of both subs: the XV15 and PB13. Remember that the ported versions use the same drivers. Just look at the compression and distortion graphs. The PSA sub is a lot worse. This behavior would likely carry over to the sealed models. The only advantage that the PSA subs have is raw SPL. In every other respect it is inferior.

Do you really think this:
is going to sound equal to this:?
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post #38 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Have you heard a XS30 yet? Or any PSA sub?

You couldnt pay him to entertain the idea of listening to any sub Tom V. was apart of designing....this goes back 10+ yrs or better. If you ever get the time or care to do some googling.
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post #39 of 88 Old 08-12-2013, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

$500 for the passive version, but he's still going to need a decent amp to power it. And putting a cheap amp with a passive 18.0 is almost a crime.

I really do like Nathan's subs but with the OP's budget he's better off getting something else. Besides I really don't see Funk subs catering to wards the budget minded guy, their subs would seem to appeal more to the guy wanted something exotic and not worry about what it costs.

Check out Funk's home page, that version comes with the 2.4 kW m3 amplifier which is discussed in the Audioholics review. The only drawback of that deal is it isn't the curved cabinet. Otherwise it appears to be the same. Anyway his budget is so close to it, even a budget minded guy can have a nice thing once in awhile. I would make that stretch.
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post #40 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

500.00 is significant so your point is moot at best. The xs30 utilizes two 15" drivers, so I could see it out performing a single 18" even if its higher quality. Go back and read the reviews on audioholics about the hgs-18. Its amp limited to 95db 2m outdoors @ 20hz. The XS30 will do better than that.

There is more to subwoofers than driver diameter and max output burst measurements. When you say performance, you seem to only mean CEA scores. That is like judging a car by top speed alone. The XS30 is probably able to beat the HGS-18s 20 Hz output, but only with a heaping helping of distortion. Anyway, I don't see where Audioholics reviewed the HGS-18, can you link to that review please.
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post #41 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I doubt it would be close at all. Just compare the measurements of the ported versions of both subs: the XV15 and PB13. Remember that the ported versions use the same drivers. Just look at the compression and distortion graphs. The PSA sub is a lot worse. This behavior would likely carry over to the sealed models. The only advantage that the PSA subs have is raw SPL. In every other respect it is inferior.

Do you really think this:
is going to sound equal to this:?

Looks to me the svs driver design is geared more towards low end, where the psa driver is designed more efficient and will have better mid bass output. Looks mean very little imo.
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post #42 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Check out Funk's home page, that version comes with the 2.4 kW m3 amplifier which is discussed in the Audioholics review. The only drawback of that deal is it isn't the curved cabinet. Otherwise it appears to be the same. Anyway his budget is so close to it, even a budget minded guy can have a nice thing once in awhile. I would make that stretch.

500.00 is not close to a budget...if it is then why dont you have funk subs instead of lower level hsu products?
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post #43 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

500.00 is not close to a budget...if it is then why dont you have funk subs instead of lower level hsu products?

Lol, because I can't use Funk subs as desktop speakers!
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post #44 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

There is more to subwoofers than driver diameter and max output burst measurements. When you say performance, you seem to only mean CEA scores. That is like judging a car by top speed alone. The XS30 is probably able to beat the HGS-18s 20 Hz output, but only with a heaping helping of distortion. Anyway, I don't see where Audioholics reviewed the HGS-18, can you link to that review please.

I confused though because you seem to be able to judge a XS30 without ever having heard one right?
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post #45 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Looks to me the svs driver design is geared more towards low end, where the psa driver is designed more efficient and will have better mid bass output. Looks mean very little imo.

The SVS driver is not geared exclusively to the low end, it is built like that to handle everything well and everything equally, and it does so. Two spiders and a massive magnet means it will have far greater grip and control over the woofer and voice coil, by which it can achieve a very tight bass sound and extremely low distortion. It is not necessarily less efficient either. Think about this, if you halved the PB13's 1 kW power, you end up roughly 3 dB down, and that is the PB13 (probably) working on 500 watts. Even at 3 dB down, the PB13 with the same amount of juice as the XV15 is still equaling it or besting it throughout most of the bass range, with a couple of exceptions. I would guess it's a more sensitive driver overall than the XV15. Looks don't mean everything but in this case they do help to explain the PB13's exceptional performance.
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post #46 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The SVS driver is not geared exclusively to the low end, it is built like that to handle everything well and everything equally, and it does so. Two spiders and a massive magnet means it will have far greater grip and control over the woofer and voice coil, by which it can achieve a very tight bass sound and extremely low distortion. It is not necessarily less efficient either. Think about this, if you halved the PB13's 1 kW power, you end up roughly 3 dB down, and that is the PB13 (probably) working on 500 watts. Even at 3 dB down, the PB13 with the same amount of juice as the XV15 is still equaling it or besting it throughout most of the bass range, with a couple of exceptions. I would guess it's a more sensitive driver overall than the XV15. Looks don't mean everything but in this case they do help to explain the PB13's exceptional performance.

Why are you comparing a pb13 to a xv15? We all know svs pb13 is better...you still are not going to convince me or anybody else that psa subs are inferior. Would it hurt your feelings to know that CR13 just recently added a XS30 with his dual PB13's and he said it sounds just as clean with more mid bass slam?
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post #47 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 07:02 AM
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Why not just fix the sub you have. Buy a new plate amp for it. I made a similar repair recently. It was cheap and easy.




This repair cost $119.95 and took about 1/2 hour to fit the plate into the old cavity and wire up the driver to it.
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post #48 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 07:56 AM
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This repair cost $119.95 and took about 1/2 hour to fit the plate into the old cavity and wire up the driver to it.

This is always a option considering the SW being asked about. I had a amp go out on a Velo once and imo they were very good to work with regarding the problem.. end result, they swapped the amp. EDIT> Just charged me shipping on the amp.

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post #49 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Why not just fix the sub you have. Buy a new plate amp for it. I made a similar repair recently. It was cheap and easy.




This repair cost $119.95 and took about 1/2 hour to fit the plate into the old cavity and wire up the driver to it.

Because the cost to replace a 1250 watt rms servo amp would be significantly more than 119.95. Now if Velodyne can repair the amp then that may be a viable option.
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post #50 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

This is always a option considering the SW being asked about. I had a amp go out on a Velo once and imo they were very good to work with regarding the problem.. end result, they swapped the amp.


Was the sub amp you had replaced discontinued? I believe the HGS-18 is a vintage model that the DD-18 replaced.
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post #51 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Lol now thats some funny **** there.


smile.gif Someone better tell Josh Ricci that there's a new subwoofer performance metric he doesn't understand/identify/measure
it's called "control". Josh measures impulse, output, distortion, FR, stored ringing, and just about anything else you can think of....but these apparently don't matter unless you include the new "control" metric that was just invented? This reminds me of years back when I was with svs....Ilkka was posting a *ton* of measurement data on a bunch of different products including svs. Some of these same "experts" claimed our better harmonic distortion data didn't matter because we *must* have very high IMD because of our long excursion capabilities. What happens? Ilkka spends the next month setting up comprehensive IMD tests? Outcome? Our IMD measured better than the competitors in question----often significantly so. At that point they couldn't argue the data so the personal attacks on Ilkka's integrity started.

I'd invite anyone who questions the "control/sound quality" of our products to the Power Sound Audio thread in this same forum. There are hundreds of real owners who are happy to spend time answer any question(s) posed. There are also numerous product reviews from Josh, Jim Wilson, Dale Rasco, etc to look over. (we also have 2-3 new reviews that will be published in the new few weeks).

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post #52 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Because the cost to replace a 1250 watt rms servo amp would be significantly more than 119.95. Now if Velodyne can repair the amp then that may be a viable option.

He has a $2000 budget. That should more than cover it. No?
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post #53 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Looks to me the svs driver design is geared more towards low end, where the psa driver is designed more efficient and will have better mid bass output. Looks mean very little imo.


I'd be careful about judging a driver based on appearances(which you already noted). Since there are car references being made----that is similar to popping the hood on two automobiles and deciding the one with all the cool chrome "must" be the better engine. Also, when discussing the excursion version distortion capabilities of two drivers within specific systems(subwoofers) it is also important to note the cone area involved and how that relates to output. In this case dual 15s will have roughly 2.5x the cone area. It is sort of like arguing that a dual turbo 231 v6 making 2hp per cubic-inch *must* be a better engine than a 496 big block chevy making half that per cubic-inch. Only ignorance would excuse someone from making a statement like that without knowing many other details. Both engines are suited for different operating environments---does that make one better? Not unless you plan on swapping them(putting an ultra13 driver in the xs30 for example). I guarantee you that wouldn't work *near* as well as the dual 15s we use..smile.gif



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post #54 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Was the sub amp you had replaced discontinued? I believe the HGS-18 is a vintage model that the DD-18 replaced.

If I had to pay for one I would not consider it even if it’s to be had, but if the fix was in the mix at a reasonable cost, then that would be a very viable option imo. No the amp I had was not servo, I wish it had been though.

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post #55 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gussboy View Post

Well my trusty 12 yr old Velodyne HGS-18 has recently died on me and I am looking for a replacement. My newer dedicated media room is only a 1400 CU FT (14'x11'x9') room so I am thinking that I just do not need a new sub as large as the HGS-18 I had prior. My primary listening is for movies and I do not listen to music at all in this room. I love heavy bass soundtracks and watch alot of action movies.

Budget is $2,000 max

Just so you know the common failure point on any subwoofer is the electronics, we are able to rebuild the electronics on this subwoofer for $285. You would just need to contact our service department (service@velodyne.com), they would have you remove the electronics pack and send that into us. A week later your panel is on its way back to you.

When in comes to audio there are seldom right and wrong answers.  The opinions of "experts" are just that, and should be used as a suggestion only.  Remember at the end of the day it is your money, your system, and you will need to listen to it.
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post #56 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 09:19 AM
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^There you have it...save yourself some money and get the amp fixed!
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post #57 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 09:36 AM
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^^ Kapish!.. done deall! Now take that $$ you saved and put it in to a fund I will suggest to you VI PM. Help steve get a xxxxx fund.

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post #58 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rob Morse View Post

Just so you know the common failure point on any subwoofer is the electronics, we are able to rebuild the electronics on this subwoofer for $285. You would just need to contact our service department (service@velodyne.com), they would have you remove the electronics pack and send that into us. A week later your panel is on its way back to you.


Thanks for the reply Rob!

I think what might have happened is a power outage/voltage spike that occurred at my house a few days ago. I went to listen to my system that night after the outage and the HGS-18 started making these constant clicking noise. I have taken a video of the sub making this noise for illustration. Does this sound like a repairable electronics issue to you? Even when I power on the sub with no inputs connected it makes this clicking/popping noise constantly.

video link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rz1u6y9tljsqtyv/2013-08-13%2012.23.04.mp4

Has anyone else experienced this? If this indeed is a $300 fix then I am all over that!
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post #59 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gussboy View Post

Thanks for the reply Rob!

I think what might have happened is a power outage/voltage spike that occurred at my house a few days ago. I went to listen to my system that night after the outage and the HGS-18 started making these constant clicking noise. I have taken a video of the sub making this noise for illustration. Does this sound like a repairable electronics issue to you? Even when I power on the sub with no inputs connected it makes this clicking/popping noise constantly.

video link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rz1u6y9tljsqtyv/2013-08-13%2012.23.04.mp4

Has anyone else experienced this? If this indeed is a $300 fix then I am all over that!

This is most likely and electronics issue and easily rectified.

When in comes to audio there are seldom right and wrong answers.  The opinions of "experts" are just that, and should be used as a suggestion only.  Remember at the end of the day it is your money, your system, and you will need to listen to it.
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post #60 of 88 Old 08-13-2013, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

smile.gif Someone better tell Josh Ricci that there's a new subwoofer performance metric he doesn't understand/identify/measure
it's called "control". Josh measures impulse, output, distortion, FR, stored ringing, and just about anything else you can think of....but these apparently don't matter unless you include the new "control" metric that was just invented? This reminds me of years back when I was with svs....Ilkka was posting a *ton* of measurement data on a bunch of different products including svs. Some of these same "experts" claimed our better harmonic distortion data didn't matter because we *must* have very high IMD because of our long excursion capabilities. What happens? Ilkka spends the next month setting up comprehensive IMD tests? Outcome? Our IMD measured better than the competitors in question----often significantly so. At that point they couldn't argue the data so the personal attacks on Ilkka's integrity started.

I'd invite anyone who questions the "control/sound quality" of our products to the Power Sound Audio thread in this same forum. There are hundreds of real owners who are happy to spend time answer any question(s) posed. There are also numerous product reviews from Josh, Jim Wilson, Dale Rasco, etc to look over. (we also have 2-3 new reviews that will be published in the new few weeks).

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

By control I mean the fidelity to the signal. There isn't a single metric that I know of which can gauge this, but there are many which reflect it, like the ones you named. In some of these metrics, the XV15 does not fare terrifically well, which isn't a crime given the low price, but you seem to pretend that your product has no faults, which is plainly not that case.
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Svs Sb13 Ultra Piano Gloss 13 Inch 1000 Watt Powered Subwoofer , Xs30 , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer

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