Has my klipsch bash amp bit the bullet? Rw-12D, any insight??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok sitting on couch and I hear a low drone for a second then a few mins later one of my RW-12D ( which I bought a few months ago) blows off like a friggin tug boat and I scramble to shut down my sub. I had my cable box on and receiver at the time but did not have any sound playing through my surround sound as I did not have my amp turned on. I thought great I know this sound! My 8 year old small paradigm sub just did the same thing less than 4 weeks back. Is it a bad cap?? So I unplug and replug it into an outlet directly and reset all other electronics. I then turn sub on and it blows its lid again nonstop. "ALL ABOARD"....

Any Help or insight would be appreciated?

I take it the amp is either shot or needs service?

This sub is spotless I haven't even taken the plastic cover off digital screen on top yet! I have read bad things about these bash amps failing prematurely.

Is this an easy fix? Has anyone dealt with klipsch and know if they have service centers I can drive the sub to or do they require it be sent to their location out of state? I'm in NJ.

I now know about the complaints I've read on the RW-12D.
I need to buy me a SVS, HSU or Rythmik that
I been eyeing up and delegate this to bedroom if klipsch fixes it but I refuse to spend $75+ to ship this out for fixing just to have this happen all over again! I'm very handy and would fix myself if I knew what needed to be replaced.

Thanks for any advise you guys provided in advance.

LM
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post #2 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 05:54 PM
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If you do ship it out for fixing I would only send the amp. Of course you will have to work with them on that and that’s if the amp is the real culprit. Could be a faulty driver causing your amp to blow. Oh! If you do buy, I would be sure to also check out PSA http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x as a great option. No one ID SW. company has a corner on the market. Now as far as dB per your dollar, PSA is very attractive/best imo and many others. Great subs, check out their thread. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1372020/official-power-sound-audio-thread/4920#post_23626418
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post #3 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

No one ID SW. company has a corner on the market.

Around here? On one corner we have PSA. Across the street we have Rythmik. Going clockwise, on the next corner we have SVS and the final corner we have HSU. Now on the next block, we have...... tongue.gif

Phew! There sure are a lot of corners to this ID subwoofer market.

If my Klipsch, RW12d took a dump on my and I hadn't already set my sights on some of the PSA offerings, I wouldn't hesitate to hit send with a Rythmik, LV12R in the shopping basket.

Do you have a spare driver you can plug in, in the place of the existing driver to, as steve nn suggests, first see if it's your subwoofer driver?

(then I'd give Klipsch customer service a call and see what I could work out)

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post #4 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for ideas Steve and beeman. I have another driver being that I have 2 new RW-12D's. I already ad the driver out of this sub when I received it being that the port tube cam unattached, which I had to fix myself. I'd hate to go messing with my other sub that works fine and came with port tube attached.
I could try using my 8" paradigm speaker but I'm not positive what is wrong with the paradigm. The paradigm sub did the same thing and when I tried it a few times later it didn't make a sound at all anymore.

I feel the need to mention I added a window ac unit in this sub room a few weeks back( think same breaker) to aid my central air on hot days. Well this ac turned itself on unprovocked for the first time ever 10 minutes before this whole thing happened. I looked at my wife and was like did u turn that on. I was hot so I let it stay on. And no I didn't have it set to do that. So the ac was running and I thought that was making a drone sound and then a few mins later the tub boat beckoned myself into a scurry...
Not sure if the two are related at all?

Isn't it low % that its a faulty driver over something with the amp?

If I did hook up another woofer do I just try turning it on or should I check the voltage with a meter? If so check at amp connection or speaker?

Great advise only sending in the amp as to not only save cost but not have my perfect enclosure come back all scratched and dinged up.. All I know is this freakin sucks. $300 to add a 2nd one for this BS. Not to mention Again i had to fix the port tube from the getgo by taking the woofer out and removing all the glue b4 glueing it again....klipsch never again....unless they warranty my sub well with little out of pocket costs...
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post #5 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 07:15 PM
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It might be you had a power surge or something of that nature?? I would call Klipsch and see where to go from here. You don’t want to negate your warranty. If you do need to send anything back, you should be able to send the amp/driver back taken out of the enclosure hopefully. It would most likely be cost prohibitive to pay shipping for the full unit back and forth.
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post #6 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Around here? On one corner we have PSA. Across the street we have Rythmik. Going clockwise, on the next corner we have SVS and the final corner we have HSU. Now on the next block, we have...... tongue.gif

Phew! There sure are a lot of corners to this ID subwoofer market.
Quote:

Yeah, but what corner can I hang on longest without being popped rolleyes.gif


[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]If my Klipsch, RW12d took a dump on my and I hadn't already set my sights on some of the PSA offerings, I wouldn't hesitate to hit send with a Rythmik, LV12R in the shopping basket.
Quote:

This does look tasty at if I remember right only $569 for an entry level servo sub. I still want this sub back to working as when dialed in it performed well. for what I paid for 2 of them I would only be Able to buy one non- ported SVS SB12-NSD or $769 for the ported version the PB12-Plus.
And how will a diff sub perform coupled with my other RW-12D as I have both situated on either side of my center channel for full air blast effect blasting at main listening couch. My 2 RW-12D have to be better than one of the others for home theater listening. I was thinking to buy a 3rd more musical non ported sub just for music but said to myself why spend more when the klipsch's are holding their own pretty nicely. So I bought 2 more amps and a preamp from Emotiva a few days ago instead. The UMC-200 to replace my recently bought Pioneer 1222-k and 2 7 channels x 350 and x 150. I'm actually in market for another center and was planning ahead for more power needs.
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post #7 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 07:55 PM
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I wouldn't take anything apart yet. You're still under warranty, yes? Get guidance as to how they want to deal with warranty first with who you bought it from then the manufacturer as necessary.

I'd look at what made two subs blow first....that a/c story doesn't sound good.

ps I don't remember any reports on this sub in the two big threads here quite like your story...
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post #8 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

It might be you had a power surge or something of that nature?? I would call Klipsch and see where to go from here. You don’t want to negate your warranty. If you do need to send anything back, you should be able to send the amp/driver back taken out of the enclosure hopefully. It would most likely be cost prohibitive to pay shipping for the full unit back and forth.

I will speak with klipsch but I know they are going to tell me it has to be checked by one of their service centers to see what's wrong before they can send me a new amp.. At who's expense though?
I know they have no extra port tubes bc I called about that already and was told promptly just send sub back where you purchased from. I told them that I wasn't going to spend $70 to return just to get a replacement with the same problem. I'd have to pay return ship with newegg this is where buying from Amazon prob pays off being they would eat that cost.
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post #9 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 08:00 PM
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Did you ask Newegg to absorb return shipping?

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post #10 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't take anything apart yet. You're still under warranty, yes? Get guidance as to how they want to deal with warranty first with who you bought it from then the manufacturer as necessary.

I'd look at what made two subs blow first....that a/c story doesn't sound good.

ps I don't remember any reports on this sub in the two big threads here quite like your story...

The first sub that took a dump was a ht in a box sub that's was 9 yrs old. This one stopped working when I finished a surround sound in wall wire install in my master bedroom before any window ac was installed in the downstairs family room.

I will however speak with klipsch before doing anything on my own. Might I add not mentioning anything about any ac. even though I highly doubt that has anything to do with it. My receiver and other 11 speakers didn't make a sound. Plus the sub was plugged into a clamping surge protector. It could have been transient voltage through the sub cable bc I had just turned on my preamp but I highly doubt this as well bc nothing else happened to my other subs/speakers. This sub had made popping sounds when I turned it off since I first bought it. It would make a winding down noise when switched off. Real weird. Then I moved to out of opposing corner to front soundstage with other sub and didn't notice that anymore while I had it into a surge protector. I just like to include all details and see if anyone has concrete answers or experience's not just presumptions bc my story sounds odd. Sometimes I add too much detail bc I like to know details. But anything is possible. My house is only 9 years old and all electric is current and up to current code so I'm thinking I'm good here. The ac turning itself on is very odd though.

My paradigm was popping from the start when I hooked it back up with my bedroom surr sound install. The sub wasn't used for 9 or 10 months prior to this. I don't think either had anything to do with the other esp since the klipsch bash amps have a history of dying prematurely.
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post #11 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you ask Newegg to absorb return shipping?

No bc they state when purchasing that it is not provided. However I did expect to ave port tube loose and detached as many buyers reviewed this problem. I was willing to chance this for the 279.99 price. With tax 3 Benny's. the first I paid $330 with tax from newegg so I was ok being that for $300 I couldn't get a sub this good and the problem was the same wherever it was purchased from. The sub worked great up until today. I will update with what klipsch says. I just hope I don't have to pay first for service center testing and then wait for reimbursement.
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A/C's draw a lot of current. If your subs are on the same circuit as the A/C, there could be a problem of not enough juice. At start up, an A/C will more than over draw 15A. What happens when you unplug the A/C and use just the subwoofer?

If everything fired at the same time (A/C, amplifier, television and subwoofer), something could have fried due to there not being enough current.

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post #13 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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A/C's draw a lot of current. If your subs are on the same circuit as the A/C, there could be a problem of not enough juice. At start up, an A/C will more than over draw 15A. What happens when you unplug the A/C and use just the subwoofer?

If everything fired at the same time (A/C, amplifier, television and subwoofer), something could have fried due to there not being enough current.

-

At the time it happened I was not playing anything through the avr. My avr was on along with Cable box but I had no signal going to speakers as the avr was still in standby through mode. The tv was not on either. I have many electronics in this room including a 65" plasma and everything else is fine. I have run everything at same time frequently this past month. No one would use these ac if they went around blowing people electronics up all the time.

I was concerned when installing ac that I would not have enough power with only 15 amp breaker being I run my home theater set up in this room too. I only planned on using ac occasionally when it was very hot to help out central air downstairs as my unit is in attic so lower floors don't get as cold.
This very well could be but I was not using the sub at the time and I had it plugged into a surge protector so how could it fry a cap or resistor if I wasn't playing the sub. It should have just been sitting there in standby mode.

I had a feeling something was going to happen with this 2nd sub I bought from the first day I got it. It would make a winding down noise when I switched it off. Like buhp buh ba ba baaa. My other RW-12D never had any of these symptoms or behaviors. I think there was something not right electrically from the start.

Electronics equipment nowadays have many safeguards built in to them and fuses setup to protect stuff like this from happening. The ac unit I own is a recent one and has the highest efficiency rating you can buy. I'm not sure what happened but something built well with good non faulty electronics would not have this happen. My gut told me that something was going to go wrong with it and it did.

I was hoping someone here would have experienced the same issue and help me pinpoint what the culprit prob is. Or at least help me with how to diagnose and single out the problem. This way when t speak with klipsch things would go better.
In past experience with warranties:
I have had a water heater break in warranty and they wanted me to pay a tech to come out and diagnose the problem. I told them (State) it would need a new thermo coupler as it would not ignite. That I saw the same problem when I was a teenager and fixed my Pops water heater with a new thermo coupler. They told me it could also be gas valve or something else but they couldn't ship me parts until they knew which one was faulty for sure. The thermo coupler cost ~$60 or so maybe less. A service man would charge $75 just to come to the house then $75 an hour on top of that. What good is $60 buck warrantied part if i have to pay $150 to get authorization to get it. i was about to just buy the part myself bc i refused to pay $150 for a serviceman to diagnose it. I was not happy at all with State water heater company. I finally talked a woman into sending me a thermo coupler as I was adamant it was the problem. After 5 or 6 calls and much wasted time she finally caved in and sent me the part that prob cost them $20. They even wanted $15 from me for shipping. She actually waved the shipping for me bc she felt bad i think with all the times i had to call them. Sure enough I replaced the thermo coupler with the new one they sent and my water heater has been fine for over 3 years now. Knock on wood...
That's the catch when parts are only warrantied. They need proof what part is faulty from a certified professional. So what good is a free part if it cost near the same or 3-20 times more just to have it diagnosed. These companies take advantage of this when it is down to warranty parts only. I was in 6 or 7th year of warranty with water heater and it only covered parts at this point.

I at least got situation to go my way even though I had pull water heater apart to fix it and send my time doing so. Better than paying someone else a few hundred though. I don't however know what's wrong with sub. So if I get an annoying person in warranty area I could have an issue. A lot of times these call handlers have no clue how their electronics work. I'm going to call klipsch in a little while. I was hoping someone would be able to tell me 90% sure that is this cap or that resistor. Or you need. Whole new amp. If it were the woofer which I highly doubt that would be the easiest and least costly fix. Oh if it was only that easy it would be nice....
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post #14 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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So I try turning sub on at lunch time and it s silent. So I put on stereo and amp and play some music with a lot of bass. The sub is back to normal it works, that's great, WRONG!! About 20 minutes of normal listening with sub working great at good volume I thought I heard the sub with a slight hum/buzz so I turn it off and back on and then it starts again with the loud woofer sound. Oh we'll it didn't just fix and reset itself.

I also noticed that all my speakers that are hooked up to my 5 x 200 watt amp have a slight hum buzz sound when you put your ear to them when the signal/music is paused. I can even hear the slight buzz when signal is playing and the volume is low. I take it this is normal? I have only had the amp in the system for ~3 months.
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post #15 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 12:20 PM
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So I try turning sub on at lunch time and it s silent. So I put on stereo and amp and play some music with a lot of bass. The sub is back to normal it works, that's great, WRONG!! About 20 minutes of normal listening with sub working great at good volume I thought I heard the sub with a slight hum/buzz so I turn it off and back on and then it starts again with the loud woofer sound. Oh we'll it didn't just fix and reset itself.

I also noticed that all my speakers that are hooked up to my 5 x 200 watt amp have a slight hum buzz sound when you put your ear to them when the signal/music is paused. I can even hear the slight buzz when signal is playing and the volume is low. I take it this is normal? I have only had the amp in the system for ~3 months.

Sounds like you may have a ground loop hum. My setup is silent, no hum/buzz/hiss....altho I have had ground loop hum before. There are quite a few threads on the forums about it...

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post #16 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like you may have a ground loop hum. My setup is silent, no hum/buzz/hiss....altho I have had ground loop hum before. There are quite a few threads on the forums about it...

I thought of this but why did I not hear buzz until I hooked up to amp. My other speakers have no such noise. I thought I heard a hum or buzz on my other working sub RW-12D and I installed a ground loop isolator (right befor i made this last post) that I had, on my sub cable and the sound was still there. I'm concerned at this point about my gear and refuse to pay an electrician a lot of money about something he prob knows very litte about. Meaning hoe theater set up with any peripherals and isolating an issue. I'm prob better off figuring any possible issues myself b4 involving a electrician, if I do at all.
I was planning to upgrade to a 20 amp breaker and outet soon before the sub acted up anyway as I have another amp on order that requires this. I will prob leave 15 amp in pace and add a 20 or possibly a 30 amp breaker just for my audio/ video gear. I had planned in figuring out how to this myself with a trip to Home Depot and youtube videos..
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I thought of this but why did I not hear buzz until I hooked up to amp.

Ground loops are an enigma of the ages. There's no single reason for what creates a ground loop in your system. Not knowing your system and what ground configuration was used prior to the addition of the new amplifier, one has pretty much zero chance of guessing what the added differentiated ground addition is responsible for the newly added/created hummmmmmm/bzzzzzzzzz/zzzzzz or what ever.

(and yes, something unrelated to "ground loop" could be responsible for the noise)

Ground loops are so much fun. One way is to check the output with a multimeter to see what the unconnected output is. I had to use one of these little babies to clear up a ground loop problem. The Hum-Eliminator was used to get rid of a ground loop problem I had when hooking the desktop PC to the AVR when taking REW readings.

Ground loops? Good-luck. smile.gif
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post #18 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 07:16 PM
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Sounds like you may have a ground loop hum. My setup is silent, no hum/buzz/hiss....altho I have had ground loop hum before. There are quite a few threads on the forums about it...

I thought of this but why did I not hear buzz until I hooked up to amp. My other speakers have no such noise. I thought I heard a hum or buzz on my other working sub RW-12D and I installed a ground loop isolator (right befor i made this last post) that I had, on my sub cable and the sound was still there. I'm concerned at this point about my gear and refuse to pay an electrician a lot of money about something he prob knows very litte about. Meaning hoe theater set up with any peripherals and isolating an issue. I'm prob better off figuring any possible issues myself b4 involving a electrician, if I do at all.
I was planning to upgrade to a 20 amp breaker and outet soon before the sub acted up anyway as I have another amp on order that requires this. I will prob leave 15 amp in pace and add a 20 or possibly a 30 amp breaker just for my audio/ video gear. I had planned in figuring out how to this myself with a trip to Home Depot and youtube videos..

Maybe just a check/reinstall of your current cables might be worth a try. I got ground loop hums adding new pro amps to my setup (3 prongers whereas my old ones were 2 prongers which seems enough to change stuff, still doing the unsafe easy thing for now in using cheater plugs).

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post #19 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe just a check/reinstall of your current cables might be worth a try. I got ground loop hums adding new pro amps to my setup (3 prongers whereas my old ones were 2 prongers which seems enough to change stuff, still doing the unsafe easy thing for now in using cheater plugs).

By what do you mean unsafe easy thing using cheater plugs?
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By what do you mean unsafe easy thing using cheater plugs?

Cheater plugs have the ground leg removed.




Chances are greater you'll be killed today driving to work, getting struck by lightning or run over by a police car than being harmed using a cheater plug but in fairness, one needs to disclose any dangers associated with a recommendation.

(if you run with the bulls in Pamplona, you might get a horn up your......)

.....eek.gif

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post #21 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Ground loops are an enigma of the ages. There's no single reason for what creates a ground loop in your system. Not knowing your system and what ground configuration was used prior to the addition of the new amplifier, one has pretty much zero chance of guessing what the added differentiated ground addition is responsible for the newly added/created hummmmmmm/bzzzzzzzzz/zzzzzz or what ever.

(and yes, something unrelated to "ground loop" could be responsible for the noise)

Ground loops are so much fun. One way is to check the output with a multimeter to see what the unconnected output is. I had to use one of these little babies to clear up a ground loop problem. The Hum-Eliminator was used to get rid of a ground loop problem I had when hooking the desktop PC to the AVR when taking REW readings.

Ground loops? Good-luck. smile.gif

I checked the art out but m not sure it is going to remedy the slight noise I hear. I would need to purchase 4 of these as well, which adds up! It seems these are more fr dj applications and using pc or laptop in the mix.
This noise I speak of is not bothersome when listening to my system. I hear nothing at all. I only noticed one day when I had volume turned off and I had my ear placed up against speaker. I should call amp manufacturer and ask if this is normal. It sounds like an amplification power sound. Similar to when you stand near huge power lines or a guitar amp. It is a faint buzz.
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Originally Posted by Imperatore View Post

I checked the art out but m not sure it is going to remedy the slight noise I hear.

The art work was to give you an idea what a "cheater" plug looks like. As to it fixing anything, there's only one way to find out and that's to buy and plug one in. Yes, you're correct, it may not correct the problem as pretty much, a ground loop issue can develop from any source. The addition of another appliance into the circuit can add a ground loop. Items that are connected via a metal frame can develop a ground loop. As I posted, ground loops come under the heading of an enigma and can be very frustrating to track down the source of.

The point of my comment was to respond to your question: "By what do you mean unsafe easy thing using cheater plugs?"

As to costs for three, four or more cheater plugs, I expect an individual cheater plug to run less than a USD. Buying one to see if it fixes the problem should cost less than a buck. Fixing a ground loop problem is a try it and see, solution. I had to buy a "Hum Eliminator" to fix a playback problem we were having. The point, one never knows what door a ground loop is going bang on and then when one chooses to open the door, one never knows what one is going have to do or buy to get the ground loop to go away.

(begone with you Beelzebub!)

As to the slight noise you're hearing, yes, it could be the amplifier. One reason, not having a low noise floor or maybe a bad part or maybe it was a ground loop waiting to happen. Yes, agreed, there are many reasons a buzz, hum or ssssssss, can be heard in a speaker.

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post #23 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The art work was to give you an idea what a "cheater" plug looks like. As to it fixing anything, there's only one way to find out and that's to buy one and plug it in. Yes, you're correct, it may not correct the problem as pretty much, a ground loop issue can develop from any source. I expect a cheater plug to run less than a USD. Buying one and seeing if it fixes the problem will cost you less than a buck.

As to the slight noise, yes, it could be the amplifier not having a low noise floor or a bad part and yes, there are many reasons a buzz, hum or ssssssss, can be heard in a speaker.

That's a lot of reasons, geez. I hope the amp is fine. It is only a few months old. I could buy one. I will change things around a bit and see if I get noise still. I have 2 more amps coming in a few weeks so I will hook one up and see if I still get buzz. I will also try it without the bbe sound 482i sonic maximizers I have between the pre amp and amp. I am also only using monoprice RCA cables. I have 3 Emotiva cables but the rest are monoprice.
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It's doubt it's the cables being used but it's the act of attaching the cables as each connection has the ability to create a "situation."

The old fashion way of checking things is to turn all the gear on and start unplugging, or plugging things in. Start with the new amplifier and start with all the speakers connected. Then, with all cables attached to the Pre-Pro outs, plug each one into the amplifier until you get the offending buzz, hum or sssssss. The act of connecting the preamplifier to the amplifier can kick over the problem and yes, the act of adding a "bbe sound 482i sonic maximizer" can create a dissimilar ground situation so you have to back track to the connection between the Pre and the Amp which is where, IIRC, you stated the problem came to your attention.

Just having one power cord further down the circuit can create a ground problem. As far as anybody knows, your speaker wires could be picking up electrical interference (EMI) or a Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) or there could be an induction problem in the circuit and the stupid refrigerator or A/C unit is back feeding noise into the line.

Yep, seventy-two thousand cables, plugs and wires.....and only one of them is causing the problem. Piece of cake. tongue.gif

Yep, the above conundrum, definitely meets the definition of an enigma.

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If it's a very faint buzz as you mention and only noticeable when you put your ear up to the speaker I wouldn't worry about it. My ground loop was very noticeable. Someday I could get electrocuted in the right circumstances using cheater plugs rolleyes.gif but I think I'll be okay for now.
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post #26 of 33 Old 08-16-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It's doubt it's the cables being used but it's the act of attaching the cables as each connection has the ability to create a "situation."

The old fashion way of checking things is to turn all the gear on and start unplugging, or plugging things in. Start with the new amplifier and start with all the speakers connected. Then, with all cables attached to the Pre-Pro outs, plug each one into the amplifier until you get the offending buzz, hum or sssssss. The act of connecting the preamplifier to the amplifier can kick over the problem and yes, the act of adding a "bbe sound 482i sonic maximizer" can create a dissimilar ground situation so you have to back track to the connection between the Pre and the Amp which is where, IIRC, you stated the problem came to your attention.

Just having one power cord further down the circuit can create a ground problem. As far as anybody knows, your speaker wires could be picking up electrical interference (EMI) or a Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) or there could be an induction problem in the circuit and the stupid refrigerator or A/C unit is back feeding noise into the line.

Yep, seventy-two thousand cables, plugs and wires.....and only one of them is causing the problem. Piece of cake. tongue.gif

Yep, the above conundrum, definitely meets the definition of an enigma.

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That's crazy considering I been adding and changing speakers, gear, setup and cables like 2-3 / month for the last 7-8 months. Not to mention the av rack I use is in a corner is very very heavy. I'm strong and capable but it is a pita to move as I also have everything wired into wall plates I installed to make everything look custom and neat. I have a lot of wires at .5m and 2' to keep it tight to wall with less scrunching of cables. However as neat and anal I am with my wiring and installation it still resembles a bees nest of wire behind the rack. I have a router and modem next to my setup. They are plugged into a surge strip which is in the outlet before I have my audio gear plugged into. This surge strip has both BBE's, both subs, and router and modem plugged into outlet under my wall mounted Plasma TV. This outlet I tapped into with 4' of 14/2 romex cable to run an outlet behind my tv. I used a leviton #5820 surge protected outlet into a recessed wall plate as well for the tv. So I have a lot at stake and on the line if something in fact is causing an issue.
I have my 5 channel amp on bottom as of now bc it is 88# and my avr above it which is 34#. I also have on the rack (4 shelves and top @~31" H) 2 BBE 482's ( looking to add 1-2 more in this room) a Sony ps3 blu ray & Apple TV on 4th shelve and then my cable box and router on top and a huge Monster strip attached to side of rack next to wall so you can't see ll the plugs going into it. The rack is wood/mdf so it also weighs close to 50# I bet too! So it is a bear to move not to mention I have to move front main left and left sub 1 just to get positioning on the rack. So there s a lot involved anytime I have to make a change.
I received my Emotiva UMC-200 this past Saturday and have not installed it yet bc it is going to be involving to take everything apart and rewire it. I plan on maybe adding the UMC-200 in place of my Pioneer 1222-k with class D amp. I am placing one of the amps I have coming in beg of Sept in My Master Bedroom as I recently completed a surround sound install and put my 60" Panny ST60 up high on the wall sandwiched between front and center speakers. So I either need to use the UMC-200 or swap out the pioneer 1222-k to my bedroom as I need pre outs for my 7x 150 watt amp I have coming. I am not familiar with the sound of the UMC-200 so I don't know what to expect. It would rob be easier to try in bedroom first as it s way easier to change everything being it is more accessible. The guy Nick at Emotiva finally talked me into buying the UMC-200 when I was inquiring about it and the Sherbourn pt-30 pre amp which has 11 balanced connections and better video processing for $400 more. I decided the UMC 200 would work better as it had HDMI standby pass through and the PT-30 did not. So it was either spend 1k to $1500 ( pioneer or possibly yamaha) for a better avr than my 1222-k or spend $550-$600 for another Pioneer SC 1222-k and purchase a 3rd Pioneer AVR over the past 18 months. I'm using my pioneer vsx 1021-k in my bedroom now. It was first to have AirPlay and sounds great but no pre outs. I decided to keep costs lower and buy the UMC -200 being that Nick at Emotiva said it was awesome and he has customers replacing their 4 k & $6k pre amps with it that it is that nice. its not heavy on features and supposed to have a real nice sound. It has HDMI standby which i need so others can turn on my TV without touching any of my gear. Not only would they not get anything to work but my gear has to be turned on in a specific order since I added the BBE's. It does have mic calibration setup and also allows crossover adjustment points with each speaker and octave slope too which i need to figure out those settings. I did not ave amp wen I purchased the 1021-k The guy I bought it from at BB who I get my TV's from kept talking me out of an amp. Rationalizing that I don't turn volume all the way up now that is was not needed since it was loud and powerful enough. Which it was but he or I didn't realize that's not what you add amps for. I now am better understanding their place and am addicted to amplification biggrin.gif
Anyways if I do pull everything out like you suggest I am just going to put the Emotiva UMC-200 in my main system and relegate the Pioneer 1222-k to my bedroom. I am hesitant being that the Pioneer has a lot more features ( I'm pretty sure) than the UMC 200 and if I don't like it than I have to rewire and move everything again the put the 1222-k back in is place!!

One thing though you explain plugging in system one wire at at time starting over from beginning just to see when the slight buzz starts!

2 more questions why would I do this when everything is on isn't that going to short and turn off everything? I tried unplugging and plugging a pre out RCA with amp on a week ago and it triggered I guess a protection switch and shut the amp off. It started blinking and I had to reset the amp for 5 minutes. I was careful and did not think I touched anything.
I will rewire everything with new preamp and will see what sounds I hear then. I wish I listened before I put the BBE's in the mix.

Also isn't it possible that this sound I hear is entirely normal? I have yet to speak with Emotiva, I'm curious what their observations are. I have my front height paradigm speakers powered through my pioneer 1222-k currently and they have no buzz when I place my ear to them. It is only my main 5 speakers that connected to my Amp that have this "white noise." I call it an amp buzz. Isn't this possible this is very normal behavior.

I'm actually more concerned with what s going on with my subs right now more than this slight buzz but if one has something to do with other I need to be open minded to this and be on the lookout for ant scenario.
Klipsch is sending me out a new amp. If that doesn't work they will send me out new sub but they will have to get my sub in and first. This would take a lot longer and more pita than them sending me a new amp. I'm responsible to replace the amp as I was told service centers are a thing of the past? Ok that's good news but I noticed 2 days ago that my other amp has a hhhmmm buzz sound just being plugged in on standby without any audio equip turned on or any signal to sub. This is usually the sound a sub makes before it dies or does what my other sub did. I have it unplugged for 2 days now bc I don't want my other sub to die. I am pretty sure that's the inevitable or why else would it be making a buzzing noise. I take it subwoofers are very sensitive and can have amps fried easily. I'm kind of frozen on what to do bc I hate calling manufacturer and being like my other sub died too. I'm so careful with my gear how could this be happening?? I don't get it?? I had the subs in a surge protector and the strip never clamped itself off or anything.

I kind of agree with loveinthehd and not worry about my speaker buzz bc it is faint. However my other 2nd not broke yet (or is it) sub never made any noise in standby. The fact that I hear a hum/buzz when it is switched on makes me sick that I now prob have 2 sub amps dead but moreover why? How? How can I prevent something from occurring again if I don't know how it occurred in the first place?
I will dread calling klipsch to tell them that my other sub isn't working either. If it is in fact defective I think on this one I may just have them send me a brand new sub all together. They said they would pay for return shipping and email me a UPS label. Im just worried something will be lost or misplaced and I will have to wait 1-2months to get a replacement.
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Originally Posted by Imperatore View Post

That's crazy considering I been adding and changing speakers, gear, setup and cables like 2-3 / month for the last 7-8 months.

...eek.gif...eek.gif...eek.gif

Wow, wow, wow.

With so many wires and separate appliances, absolutely the problem can be anything from cross talk, to inductance to EMI, to RFI, to a cornucopia of problems that I'm completely ignorant of. That being said, absolutely, yes, there can be expected low level hissssssss in the speakers. I touched on this when I commented about noise floors. And as pointed out by others (agreeing with them), being encouraging in my next, if it's low level and doesn't interfere with your listening pleasure, go with the flow as you'll only end up breaking the bank and still have to pay for time in the funny farm. As harmful as this may sound, sometimes one just has to accept imperfection. What one fails to grasp, what humans perceive to be imperfection, really is perfection and we're applying a false or pseudo standard to the outcome.

(unless design specifications to the otherwise, if a hammer falls squarely on a flat, polished piece of 0.125" flint glass from ten feet and the glass shatters, that's perfection as it's expected for the glass to shatter. not necessarily desirable but definitely expected)

It reads like you have a lot happening behind your system and you've put a lot of time, effort and thought into your setup and that in of itself can be part of the noise problem as the new addition was the straw that broke the camel's back or, yes, as you pointed out, something can be going bad and the failure is showing itself by back-feeding the noise into your speakers. Again, for all we know, it could be a neighbor's A/C unit or a refrigerator's compressor motor next door causing the problem. Maybe the transformer on the utility pole is getting a bit wonky.

As to turning the system on and plugging and unplugging cables, yes, it's understood, one doesn't "hot swap" cables and yes, the more complex a system, the more complex the switching and the turn-on procedure. As to ground loops, yes, based on your above, you definitely have a problem, waiting to happen. That's not to say you've done anything wrong, it's to say that the speaker noise was/is "potentially" a problem waiting for the right conditions to present themselves and finally, the problem has shown itself.

Working with you, I'm hesitant to add an Emotiva, XPA-5 to our system, just because of the problems the additional wires can add to our system but in the meantime, if I don't add the outboard amplifier, as you pointed out, I won't be able to take benefit of the additional amplification; headroom.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

If it's a very faint buzz as you mention and only noticeable when you put your ear up to the speaker I wouldn't worry about it. My ground loop was very noticeable. Someday I could get electrocuted in the right circumstances using cheater plugs rolleyes.gif but I think I'll be okay for now.

Yeah I agree. I will at least give amp manufacturer a call. I'm more concerned with what happened with sub. Klipsch is sending me out a new amp which i should get in 5 days.
My 2nd sub has a hum/buzz just being switched on in standby now. I'm not sure if this was there when the other sub bit it. I have it unplugged for 2 days but I have to turn it on and use it to see if it will work. Obviously something's wrong since it is making a noise. Maybe I should call Klipsch before I turn it back on to prevent any other damages that may occur. I did listen to music loud for a while or week or so ago. The subs volume was not even turned up halfway so this should not have been an issue. I had my AVR between 0db and -8db and the subs volume was either at -14 db which is my movie setting or -11 db which is my music setting. I am going to try plugging into another room and if still hear sound I am calling klipsch. I have a feeling the will want to send out another amp to me hopefully. I'm thinking I'd rather get a new replacement but I need to know there is something wrong for sure so they don't tell me I have to pay for them to ship it back to me bc they checked it and its fine. I'm thinking at this point get a replacement if it is broke too and sell it. Keep my other one that I'm replacing my amp with for bedroom and buy a new one for this room. Going with either SVS, Rythmik or anything else that I can find out about. I much prefer having what I had without spending any money but something obviously is going on with my subs???
The ac has been used since the first sub blew and will not be until sep breaker is set up. Just playing it safe and taking variables I can out of equation even if they had nothing to do with it.

I take it subwoofer amps are very fragile and not very well protected bc their fuses should be frying before it allows the amp to take any damage. I do remember the sub screen lighting up a few times each when plugging into an outlet and sometimes making
LFE RCA wire connection with sub on standby. Sometimes I would plug in RCA when it was on and you would hear noise from the sub. Even if you touched the end of the RCA to the outside of the LFE connection it would sound off noise. I did not do anything that would be considered abuse. I did what every other average user out there does with their subwoofer and play at same volumes everyone else does. These amps should not be this sensitive to use. Not when you tout a 840 watt BASH amp with a 1k retail price. You can get on Amazon for a little under $400 with tax but that is still decent. When this was a new model you had to pay $700-$800 for this sub. It is not a cheap sub by any means and should be able to hold up better than what my experiences are proving to be!!
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post #29 of 33 Old 08-16-2013, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It's doubt it's the cables being used but it's the act of attaching the cables as each connection has the ability to create a "situation."

The old fashion way of checking things is to turn all the gear on and start unplugging, or plugging things in. Start with the new amplifier and start with all the speakers connected. Then, with all cables attached to the Pre-Pro outs, plug each one into the amplifier until you get the offending buzz, hum or sssssss. The act of connecting the preamplifier to the amplifier can kick over the problem and yes, the act of adding a "bbe sound 482i sonic maximizer" can create a dissimilar ground situation so you have to back track to the connection between the Pre and the Amp which is where, IIRC, you stated the problem came to your attention.

Just having one power cord further down the circuit can create a ground problem. As far as anybody knows, your speaker wires could be picking up electrical interference (EMI) or a Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) or there could be an induction problem in the circuit and the stupid refrigerator or A/C unit is back feeding noise into the line.

Yep, seventy-two thousand cables, plugs and wires.....and only one of them is causing the problem. Piece of cake. tongue.gif

Yep, the above conundrum, definitely meets the definition of an enigma.

-

I just found the following while looking at hsu research subs. It is exactly what you said to do but the say it may be the wire not tha act of hooking up the wire. Are u saying unplugging and replugging in RCA could get rid of noise? Im wondering If the $4 each monoprice cables RCA are causing the speaker buzz. I first had 3 emotiva specific x-RCA's and then added surround speakers into amp (used 2 monoprice here.) then I bought 2 BBE 482's which I used 4 more monoprice RCA cables . They are inexpensive built great and got excellent review ratings.

Hsu tech support:

Technical questions

Why is there is a humming or buzzing noise coming from my subwoofer?
his is a common question and can usually be solved at home. There are several possible causes:

1) You have a ground loop problem. Try using a cheater plug that removes the third prong, also called the 'ground'. Do NOT ground the grounding tab on the cheater plug! That would defeat the purpose of the cheater plug for this application.

2) You have an amplifier problem. If the ground cheater plug does not help, disconnect all interconnects from the subwoofer amplifier. If still hums, call or email technical support.

3) You have a problem with other equipment. If hum goes away when interconnects are disconnected, hum is coming from the rest of your equipment. Add them back one piece at a time. The one that causes the system to hum is the source of the hum.
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post #30 of 33 Old 08-16-2013, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Went home for lunch and moved sub #2. (The one that didn't have a problem from start of this thread) to another room and switched it on and Guess WHAT COMPLETE SILENCE AS IT SHOULD BEHAVE.

I'm going to have to try it again in surge protector and pull out router, Modem and BBE product to see if its surge protector now.

So I ave sub back in theater spot setup and the Buzz in sub #2 is gone. Klipsch said to try using rg6 coaxial for sub wire which I already had one made up from my bedroom sub. It s cheaper than buying sub cable. I thought the culprit was my amazon bought media bridge y splitter going into both left and right sub inputs bc when I connected it the buzz/humm came back. So I took out y splitter and left ground loop attached to rg6 and The BUZZ WAS STILL THERE WITH GROUND LOOP ATTACHED!! So I took off ground loop and put y splitter back on rg6 and no buzz. I then plugged in BBE 482 and modem and router and I'm still good so far no buzz. I was even trying the setup using high hat dimmer and fan light dimmer as well as diff fan speeds and I'm sill good. So it seems the prob is so far the 25 ft monster directional sub cable with the media bridge Y splitter. I have not tried just the monster sub cable alone as I need to move things around a bit more to try that. I'm wondering if my recently added 3 ft RCA from monoprice has anything to do with the first sub blowing off. I'm going to try a rg6 cable for that sub next. Maybe it will fix itself ? Doubtful considering Klipsch has heard enough to already send me out a new amp. I will keep updating. I have a feeling diff cables may get rid of speaker buzz too.
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