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post #1 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi folks.

After learning that the LFE (.1) track is 0hz to 120hz I've decided to set my crossover setting to 120hz, but I've been reading that any frequencies higher than 80hz are directional, meaning you can locate where the bass audio is coming from. I'm thinking that if I had two subwoofers, and placed them correctly, would that combat the possibility of locating where the bass is coming from?

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post #2 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 07:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

Hi folks.

After learning that the LFE (.1) track is 0hz to 120hz I've decided to set my crossover setting to 120hz, but I've been reading that any frequencies higher than 80hz are directional, meaning you can locate where the bass audio is coming from. I'm thinking that if I had two subwoofers, and placed them correctly, would that combat the possibility of locating where the bass is coming from?

There is the 0.1 track which is completely and totally separate from the rest of the tracks. That being said, what you're doing, by bass managing the 5.0 channel's <80Hz frequencies to the subs, is relieving your AVR amplifier of the more demanding duties of reproducing the lower octaves.

As to subwoofer placement, subwoofers are the cats of the speaker set, they tell you where they need to be placed as the long subwoofer reproduced sound waves don't play and get along well with a room's acoustics. The reason being is they like to play "Mosh Pit" in your room. Sometimes they pal around with each other (reinforcement) and sometimes they like to bump into each other and produce a null or reduction in frequency strength and in doing so, suck the life out of that particular octave.

In the end, the simple of the story would be to read up and learn about the "sub crawl" get a sound meter to equally set the output of your subs and then run your AVR's EQ program. From there, everything falls into a rabbit hole and becomes a bunch more complicated. If you're inclined towards complicated, Google "REW."
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post #3 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 07:14 PM
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The LFE channel is controlled by the "LPF for LFE" setting, which is completely different than the crossover setting for your mains.

By default, the LPF for LFE is set to 120hz, which ensures that the entire spectrum of the LFE channel will get sent to your sub.

The purpose of the crossover setting is to redirect bass below the crossover point in the L/C/R and surround channels to your sub.
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post #4 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

There is the 0.1 track which is completely and totally separate from the rest of the tracks. That being said, what you're doing, by bass managing the 5.0 channel's <80Hz frequencies to the subs, is relieving your AVR amplifier of the more demanding duties of reproducing the lower octaves.

As to subwoofer placement, subwoofers are the cats of the speaker set, they tell you where they need to be placed as the long subwoofer reproduced sound waves don't play and get along well with a room's acoustics. The reason being is they like to play "Mosh Pit" in your room. Sometimes they pal around with each other (reinforcement) and sometimes they like to bump into each other and produce a null or reduction in frequency strength and in doing so, suck the life out of that particular octave.

In the end, the simple of the story would be to read up and learn about the "sub crawl" get a sound meter to equally set the output of your subs and then run your AVR's EQ program. From there, everything falls into a rabbit hole and becomes a bunch more complicated. If you're inclined towards complicated, Google "REW."
So this detection of frequencies higher than 80hz really comes down to the room acoustics, not multiple subs?

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post #5 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 07:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

So this detection of frequencies higher than 80hz really comes down to the room acoustics, not multiple subs?

The directionality of sound. Below 80Hz, humans lose the ability to localize the direction the sound is coming from. Some maintain directionality lower than 80Hz but generally, the standard is considered to be <80Hz.

In regard to room acoustics, that deals with reflected sound and sound waves running into each other like a glass smooth pond that someone tossed two or three pebbles into; wave reinforcement or cancellation.

The idea behind multiple subwoofers deals with smoothing out the room's response to subwoofer, produced sound waves. The more directions the sound is coming from, the smoother the measured response at the (MLP) main listening position. Generally, three or four subs works the best. One has multiple subwoofers to smooth a room's response as opposed to playing it loud. The smoother a room's response, the better the sound quality because the fewer peaks and nulls to detract from the reproduced sound waves.

In order to see what's acoustically happening in one's playback room, one needs to download, install and learn how to use a room measuring program such as a freeware copy of REW.

Check out the benefits of the "sub crawl" as that would be a sort of intro to what I'm commenting on in my above.
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post #6 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I understand that but if I wanted to set my crossover settings to the 120hz mark, I may be able to localise where it's coming from with one sub right? So, would two subs prevent this?

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post #7 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 07:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

I understand that but if I wanted to set my crossover settings to the 120hz mark, I may be able to localise where it's coming from with one sub right? So, would two subs prevent this?

No. Because with a 5.0 system, the sound is tracked for each individual speaker's location. Now you're porting sound from rear surrounds to your subs and that's going cause confusion as you're hearing sound from your sub that should be coming from your surrounds. And if the sound consists of many frequencies, which normally it does, as an example, you'll have creaks coming from both your surrounds and your subs. But if bass management is set to <80Hz, localization issues are greatly reduced.

In a case of a panning, from left, through the center channel and then to the right channel, you'll have the panned sound coming through your front speakers and your subs. Back to the "Mosh Pit" analogy.
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post #8 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 08:08 PM
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Mine is set to 80 hz and when big explosions come in, I know most of the boom is coming from the right side as the sub is on the right side. Putting two in the corners, assuming a perfect room would removes some if not all of the localizations, if your dead center. Setting the crossover at 120 hz does not mean, there would be no sound from 121 and so on. the sub will produce 121 hz and above but it would be dmininishing in spl, depending on the design of the crossover of the subwoofer

.... then you have bass from the surround issue coming from the front, if you set the sub to 120 hz and fronts at 120 hz and the surrounds at 80hz then, you should be good.
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post #9 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Mine is set to 80 hz and when big explosions come in, I know most of the boom is coming from the right side as the sub is on the right side. Putting two in the corners, assuming a perfect room would removes some if not all of the localizations, if your dead center. Setting the crossover at 120 hz does not mean, there would be no sound from 121 and so on. the sub will produce 121 hz and above but it would be dmininishing in spl, depending on the design of the crossover of the subwoofer

.... then you have bass from the surround issue coming from the front, if you set the sub to 120 hz and fronts at 120 hz and the surrounds at 80hz then, you should be good.

It sounds as if the sub is to loud at the LP. Matched correctly with the mains the sound should not be able to be localized. Subwoofer positioned close to the mains allow a higher xo to be used so, all of this is room and speaker placement dependent. Less than 5% of the LFE content is above 80 Hz and Dolby usually starts around 80 Hz.

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post #10 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

I understand that but if I wanted to set my crossover settings to the 120hz mark, I may be able to localise where it's coming from with one sub right? So, would two subs prevent this?
Having multiple subs will make the bass harder to localize to any one sub. Still, that's not a good reason to set the crossovers to 120 Hz. The larger question is: "Why do you want to run 120 Hz crossovers?" What speakers do you have? Do you have any kind of auto-EQ system? If so, have you run it? What did it set the crossovers to?

Or, are you just talking about the LPF of LFE, which is not a "crossover" at all; it's just a Low Pass Filter, (High Frequency Cutoff Filter.)

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post #11 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No. Because with a 5.0 system, the sound is tracked for each individual speaker's location. Now you're porting sound from rear surrounds to your subs and that's going cause confusion as you're hearing sound from your sub that should be coming from your surrounds. And if the sound consists of many frequencies, which normally it does, as an example, you'll have creaks coming from both your surrounds and your subs. But if bass management is set to <80Hz, localization issues are greatly reduced.

In a case of a panning, from left, through the center channel and then to the right channel, you'll have the panned sound coming through your front speakers and your subs. Back to the "Mosh Pit" analogy.
I get it now, so really I should set the crossovers to 80hz. I suppose it makes sense. The front or back speakers are supposed to be localised, anything above 80 can be localised so it's only proper to have those frequencies handled by the main speakers.

But may I ask why 120hz was opted as the highest LFE frequency to be used if its localizable? THX seem to keep it at 80hz.

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post #12 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Having multiple subs will make the bass harder to localize to any one sub. Still, that's not a good reason to set the crossovers to 120 Hz. The larger question is: "Why do you want to run 120 Hz crossovers?" What speakers do you have? Do you have any kind of auto-EQ system? If so, have you run it? What did it set the crossovers to?

Or, are you just talking about the LPF of LFE, which is not a "crossover" at all; it's just a Low Pass Filter, (High Frequency Cutoff Filter.)
I just figured if 120hz is the highest bass frequency used for the LFE track, the subwoofer should be set to handle exactly those frequencys.

My set up at the moment is a 4.1. I have four Xarus 5000 speakers, and one Wharfedale SW150 subwoofer. It's simply the crossover I'm talking about, I have the LPF of LFE covered.

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post #13 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 08:44 PM
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The 120hz limit for the LFE channel is a brick wall, meaning there are is not any content at all at 121hz, and the limit is set to 120hz presumably for there to be some room for the sub-80hz content to roll off smoothly.

Refer to my first post in this thread - setting your crossover to 80hz (or anything else, for that matter) will not affect the LFE channel, which will be played in its entirety by the sub unless you change the LFP for LFE setting.
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post #14 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Tenderchkn, that makes sense. I'll be setting my crossovers back to 80hz then, thanks to all that helped.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

But may I ask why 120hz was opted as the highest LFE frequency to be used if its localizable? THX seem to keep it at 80hz.

It reads like you're confusing the concept of 5.1 with just having speakers; no subwoofers. The 0.1 channel sound has nothing to do with the other five channels. My understanding, the 0.1 are the sound effects as opposed to dialogue and spacial (directional) sounds.

The information found at "this link" may help with your above question.

What is LFE (Low Frequency Effects)?
The LFE (.1) provides a dedicated channel for the low bass that is used in theaters to add impact to the movies. The LFE signal is band-limited to frequencies below 120 Hz.


(bass management is a frustratingly interesting study. my understanding of it is a fingernail's grip on the consumer's side of the coin)

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post #16 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

Thank you Tenderchkn, that makes sense. I'll be setting my crossovers back to 80hz then, thanks to all that helped.
If these are your speakers;



...you DEFINITELY want to set the crossovers on the main channels to 80 Hz. You could even consider 60 Hz for those.

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post #17 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 10:54 PM
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I get it now, so really I should set the crossovers to 80hz. I suppose it makes sense. The front or back speakers are supposed to be localised, anything above 80 can be localised so it's only proper to have those frequencies handled by the main speakers.

But may I ask why 120hz was opted as the highest LFE frequency to be used if its localizable? THX seem to keep it at 80hz.

Speakers are crossed at X/Y/Z frequency because of their bass handling capability and not because of any other reason. Subwoofer localization is mostly attributed to improper blending with the mains (incorrect phase), too much bass in the crossover region, and room acoustics.

Bass traps/room treatments can have fantastic effect on the overall bass response. If still you have bass localization; it's either phase mismatch between the mains and sub or a hump in the crossover region. For the later, engage LPF on AVR and subwoofer also. The two LPF will cascade and attenuate bass response in the crossover region. That is only in case if your LFE input on sub does not disable the LPF on the sub itself. Or alternatively use EQ to bring down the peak near crossover point.

Subwoofer is there to complement the low-end of mains; it must not be used to supplement it. Localization occurs when the sub is supplementing.

This all refers to re-directed bass only. LFE has nothing to do with it.

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post #18 of 36 Old 08-15-2013, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If these are your speakers;



...you DEFINITELY want to set the crossovers on the main channels to 80 Hz. You could even consider 60 Hz for those.

Craig
Yup, those are the ones smile.gif

Thanks for the link BeeMan, no I totally meant the subwoofer when I mention the LFE.

Although I understand that 80hz is the correct setting for the crossovers with dedicated .1 channels, what about bass signals routed from a stereo signal such as music CD's, would that crossover still be correct?

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post #19 of 36 Old 08-16-2013, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

Although I understand that 80hz is the correct setting for the crossovers with dedicated .1 channels, what about bass signals routed from a stereo signal such as music CD's, would that crossover still be correct?

There's no "correct" crossover setting. Setting the crossover at X will simply redirect frequencies below X hz from the main channels to the subwoofer. An 80hz setting is most common, but experiment with different points to see what sounds best and provides the flattest in room response.
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post #20 of 36 Old 08-16-2013, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tenderchkn View Post

The 120hz limit for the LFE channel is a brick wall, meaning there are is not any content at all at 121hz,
That degree of filtering does not exist. One of the reasons why the crossover should be set as low as the mains capability allows is that there will always be some above bandwidth content present in the subs.

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post #21 of 36 Old 08-16-2013, 07:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

Although I understand that 80hz is the correct setting for the crossovers with dedicated .1 channels, what about bass signals routed from a stereo signal such as music CD's, would that crossover still be correct?

Music or sound effect, the crossover only applies to 5.0 content as the 0.1 channel is unaffected.

What I seem to not be communicating is, the concept of localization and how this impacts content tracked to each separate speaker channel. The main concept behind managing bass over to the subwoofers is to take advantage of the capabilities of the subwoofer driver and the amplifier a subwoofer comes with, taking strain off of the puny, by comparison, AVR amplifier.

Home Theater or music CD, 5.1 Dolby Digital or Stereo, one is still going be dealing with localization issues when porting dedicated tracked information over to a subwoofer reproduction system. So yes, stereo CD's, localization issues are pertinent and a 80Hz crossover would still be a good choice.

I don't post "correct" because it depends on room acoustics and how a room's acoustics reacts to the moved around (from woofer to subwoofer) energy. The only way one can see what the "correct" or "best possible" setting is, is to fire up a room measuring system, measure the room's acoustic response and compare readings as yes, changing from 40Hz, to 60Hz to 80Hz, will change a reading from good to better or worse. A flat graph mime's what the sound engineer and producers intended so flat is the "correct" goal.

Some like to run bass hot but nobody gets to run up to the engineers booth and throw the slides up five or ten dB and at a concert, we head bang to what the control booth says we will and it's the same with playback. Once one goes outside the purvey of the recording engineer, the individual is spicing to tastes (salt and pepper away) and they're now "outside" the rails of "correct" and have moved into the the venue of subjectivity.

How are you expecting to use your subwoofer system? In my opinion, one needs to decide Music or Home Theater as mostly, music has a continuous bass track running in the background where as Home Theater uses a mix of music, dialogue and sound effects to convey the emotion of the video on the screen and the expectations of the two genres are completely and totally different.

Hypothetically speaking, if one were simply dealing with stereo music, I'd buy two subwoofers, place them next to each speaker, wire them in to the speakers and crank the system so issues of locatability are not a consideration. If using the LFE channel, one would need a third subwoofer so the first two subs would compliment the stereo track of the CD and the third subwoofer would compliment the LFE channel.

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The point, the answer is always going be, "It depends." It will always depend on how far off in the weeds one wants to get regarding this type of subject matter.

If one wants quality stereo bass (no localization issues), one needs to wire two subs up to their speaker out connections; voila, stereo bass. If one want to light up the LFE channel and manage their bass, the crossover for the rest of the speaker channels need to be set to 60Hz or 80Hz to minimize localization issues. If one wants to know what's what with what at any time and point in their listening venue, they need to download and install a room measuring program, measure the room, place their subwoofer system according to what the room measuring program shows to be the best "choice" and go from there. If one wants to rock the joint, have everybody in the room hear quality bass, you're looking at a three or four subwoofer solution to smooth out the modes created in the room.

I need to add, speakers are no longer being made to "full range" specifications as was the case pre-1990 as Dolby-Digital and THX became all the rage. Now, it's expected that one will add subwoofers to their system so as to pick-up the "intentional" slack due to the current state of Home Theater speaker design. As an example, the Klipsch, Palladium series, surround speaker, at $2,000.00/ea.....frequency response specification: 72Hz - 24kHz, +/-3dB. As you can see, it's expected for the buyer to set their bass managed surround crossover to 60Hz when using these expensive (overly priced?) marvels.

In the case of a subwoofer system, less is not more. Bass is funny and a room doesn't come alive with bass until that third subwoofer is added to the system. At a certain point, it's not about playing it loud as it becomes about smoothing out the room's response to the subwoofer system. Once you get past all the madness, it really is quite simple. tongue.gif

Where are you wanting your system to go? What are the expectations you have of your subwoofer reproduction system?

Whip, chair, subwoofer........good luck. wink.gif

At this point, the forum experts need to weigh in as I only qualify as an incompetent old fool tongue.gif

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Comment : Some really good explanations here. It cleared up a lot of questions I needed answered.

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post #23 of 36 Old 08-16-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Great post BeeMan. I use my system for both music and movies, so I guess I'm trying to make my system adapt to work out well for both uses, including the subwoofer. I was intending to get another one of my subs anyway to help out with the evening of the frequency response as you guys have been mentioning, seems I may be needing two anyway if I use my system for both home theatre and music.

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Great post BeeMan.

Thanks! smile.gif
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Thanks! smile.gif

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so I guess I'm trying to make my system adapt to work out well for both uses, including the subwoofer.

Dial a subwoofer system in for the "demands" of Home Theater and music will be a piece of cake. In my opinion, the most strident piece of music pales to the demands of Home Theater and if your system can cake walk Home Theater, music will knock your socks off.

Subwoofers? Now it becomes about your reproduction environment. How many cu ft? Is it a sealed environment or an open space? Is it a small intimate, closed off room, or is the listening venue open to other spaces; kitchen, dining room, hall way leading to bedrooms? How loud do you like it? Are you wanting THX, raise the roof reference capability or are you willing to leave it at whimpy, whimpy, whimpy; that's nice? How hard do you want to bang on this gong? Are you in it for a penny or are you in it for the "Full Monty?"

What is the ultimate goal that makes you say: "Now that's what I'm talking about!"

Sammy Hagar: "Mas Tequila"

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post #26 of 36 Old 08-17-2013, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys again.

I've come across something that I'd like to ask about which is to do with crossing over bass signals from sources without a .1 track, so like stereo. I downloaded an 80hz test signal from from Audiocheck.com and playing the signal, I notice that that pure 80hz signal that should only be coming from the subwoofer is also slightly coming from my front loudspeakers woofers too. It looks like my receiver isn't completely crossing over at 80hz, maybe this is normal.

I read somewhere that it is probably a good idea to set the crossover an extra 10 to the crossover you're thinking of. So I'd want it set to 80hz but instead I should go 90hz. Is this a good idea?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

I read somewhere that it is probably a good idea to set the crossover an extra 10 to the crossover you're thinking of. So I'd want it set to 80hz but instead I should go 90hz. Is this a good idea?

This is normal.

Crossovers are not a brick wall but instead, are set on a slope. Could be a 12dB per octave slope or a 24dB per octave slope. My recommendation, don't worry. Set your 80Hz crossover and let things fall where they may. If you raise above 80Hz, then localization issues become more of a possible problem.

What is your concern?
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post #28 of 36 Old 08-18-2013, 12:26 AM
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In setting the xo in the avr, it should be 10-15 Hz higher than the least capable speakers frequency range.

Example 1

Mains 35 HZ-20 kHz
center 60 Hz -22 kHz
Surround 80 Hz -20 kHz
subwoofer 20 hz-200 Hz

Correct xo range 80-200 Hz
adjustment for safety of surrounds 90-200 Hz

In theory this should be acceptable for a system. Most people will not run a sub that high due to localization. The 90 Hz xo is solid in this example. This is why some people use a higher xo. Auto calibration may set the surrounds to large due to boundary gain, but the true LF extension of the surround is less.

Some satellite systems have speakers with a LF extension of 120-150 Hz and a higher xo is needed. Some subs don't play well over 80-100 Hz and a lower xo is needed. The sub frequency response is just as important to consider when setting the xo.

Not putting low bass in the other speakers allows for less Doppler modulating at higher frequencies and cleaner mids with up to 6 db of improved dynamic range. Also, keeping low bass out of the mains and other speaker creates less EMF and allows better damping of the driver for a cleaner sound. Keeping the lower bass out of the other speakers decrease intermodulation distortion in the avr/amp also for a cleaner sound. I don't try to xo my mains near their LF extension for these reasons. My mains go down to 32 Hz and I use a xo of 80 Hz. The sub is an integral component of the system and not using it to it full advantage can be under use of a valuable system component.

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post #29 of 36 Old 08-18-2013, 12:58 AM
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I set my crossover to 120hz and have no localization problems. I have dual subs with one next to each speaker, so any bass I hear sounds like it's coming from the main speakers. I get very little to nothing of bass when I set my crossover according to the speaker specs, could that mean that my receiver is the weak link and an amp would be needed? I have definitive techs sm65, sm55 and sm45 with an onkyo 805.
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post #30 of 36 Old 08-18-2013, 03:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

I get very little to nothing of bass when I set my crossover according to the speaker specs, could that mean that my receiver is the weak link and an amp would be needed?

No. But it does mean you've become slave to negative consequences symmetrical placement of your subwoofers brings to the listener's experience. (ignorant idea) And yet, at the same time, yes, an outboard Amp may be a necessary addition as one's subwoofer system succeeds in overpowering one's speaker system.

(out of balance as yes, one can feel the life being sucked out of their speaker system)

Just saying, subwoofers are cats and they place themselves. And "ONLY" with room measuring capability will "ANYBODY" know where to place their subwoofers within the restrictions of their room's acoustics.

The point, poorly placed subwoofers will suck the life out of their existence in the Universe due to reinforcement/cancellation issues. The alternative expression, symmetrical placement is about as bad of an idea as one can covet.

Without room measuring capability, there is no hope in understanding the why of what is what.

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