Test of the Top of the Line M&K DXD 12012 Sub up at Sound&Vision magazine - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/07/17/review-kreisel-sound-dxd-12012-subwoofer

A lot of strong competition in that price range. I would most likely go with the Submersive HP.
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post #2 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 10:48 AM
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This sub is WAY overpriced for what you get. $hit, for 3k if you wanted a single sub and did not want to go DIY, you can get something like an S2 which will blow this 12012 into the weeds! Even my now older PB13s have more output at 20hz and I paid half of what this 12012 costs.

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post #3 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 11:13 AM
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^^^, but, it's for AUDIOPHILES, man! You just don't get it!
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post #4 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 11:20 AM
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I hate to say this, but given the inconsistencies in S&V's other tests- just compare the scores for the various SVS subs- I would not regard those measurements as authoritative. I am not saying they underscore or overscore the M&K sub, I am just saying given S&V's weird test results, who the hell can know.
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post #5 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

This sub is WAY overpriced for what you get. $hit, for 3k if you wanted a single sub and did not want to go DIY, you can get something like an S2 which will blow this 12012 into the weeds! Even my now older PB13s have more output at 20hz and I paid half of what this 12012 costs.

Sorry Toe but you're sadly mistaken! and as I've tried to tell you before and others but still don't seem to get it and will miss out on a chance to hear something special. The one thing you guys don't seem to notice is the in room response vs. the outdoor measurements and how the actual listening experience is explained by the reviews as the best they've heard . to also clear up another thing this is not an updated MX350 but an updated MX5000 even Audyssey has a special section on what to do on push pull designed subs. but I'm going to let the chips fall where they may and let Ken give a little more in site with what he posted over on HTS
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[/QThe side of the cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first.

Every room is different and needs some experimentation with subwoofer placement. But, after measuring literally hundreds of studios and rooms with very sophisticated TIME DOMAIN measurement equipment with the world's best laboratory measurement microphones, and my own proprietary analysis technique (which measures and computes very much like our ear/brain mechanism interprets the spectrum of sound energy over time including and especially transients), the closest solid corner has the best chance of giving you the best and most accurate "out-of-the-box" results, in my humble opinion and experience.

The DXD's are specifically designed for corner placement which normally will give you the least room mode problems, especially if you are using the stacked DUO configuration which is technically a whole new subwoofer for a host of technical reasons.

Here is what I just wrote in another Home Theater Shack thread about this:

"Yes, a DUO will be AUDIOPHILE BASS NIRVANA for you, I guarantee it! As good as single DXD-808's and DXD-12012's are, it is a whole new experience in the DUO configuration because they are technically a whole new type of subwoofer from the single cabinets, I designed it that way.

Once you stack at least one pair, you have my full BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT LINE ARRAY NEARFIELD technology operating in all its glory!!!"

The DXD's can be placed anywhere in a room, but optimum performance in most rooms will be achieved in a corner placement, again, I designed it that way for all the good reasons.

Also worth noting, the DXD's performance secret (please don't tell my competition this secret) is they are very specifically and deliberately and scientifically designed to give optimum bass performance in a real room or studio with real walls, not in a parking lot outdoors where a lot of review measurements are made for subwoofer comparisons. The same holds true for close-up type measurements where only part of a DXD's output is actually measured.

The DXD's put out a sound pressure wave in multiple directions and cannot be properly measured outdoors or close-up, this is a big mistake some reviewers are making. It is somewhat analogous to trying to measure the horsepower on the ground of an ALL WHEEL DRIVE vehicle with a dynamometer, but only measuring the horsepower at one wheel.

I actually get a big kick at the outdoor and close-up review measurements which show the DXD's appearing to have unusual output levels and response, and then when a reviewer listens and measures in a room they usually comment they cannot believe how much pants flappy energy and impact is heard and felt in their real listening room with real walls and how low the DXD's measure in the room. Remember (another top secret not to tell my competitors), I don't use high pass protection filters in my subs (they ruin the bass impact) so they will go all the way down in a real room with real walls.

My mentor, Dr. Lester M. Field, used to say "the device is the perfect analog of itself!"

GOOD SOUND AND GOOD BASS TO YOU...ALWAYS...KEN

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ken-kreisel/68712-kk-dxd-808-vs-sunfire-hrs-12-a-2.html#ixzz2cABcfKtjUOTE]
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post #6 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

^^^, but, it's for AUDIOPHILES, man! You just don't get it!
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Sorry! I forgot!



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Audiofan, sorry man but I don't buy it, and if you buy another one of these for 3k in light of what you can do for the same money (like a dual 18" S2 as an example) you are crazy my friend! eek.gif There is only so far two 12s, 750 watts and this enclosure can go as evidenced by the numbers we have seen.

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post #7 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 01:11 PM
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"The DXD's are specifically designed for corner placement which normally will give you the least room mode problems."

Huh?

It looks like the duo would almost have as much 20 hz output as a single 15h. Way to raise the bar! wink.gif
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post #8 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 01:14 PM
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"There is no replacement for displacement." Simple statement of physics, no matter what goobledy gook the mfg says. At the end of the day, those are still 2 12" woofers with 375 each watts off a plate amp. EVERY sub will benefit from room gain.

It's clear you enjoy your subs and are proud of your purchase. But you are not hitting anywhere close to reference in the deep bass area. So when people say that you really don't know what it is you're missing out on, or in my case, that you don't have enough grunt down low to hear what some of these movies are doing, it's because we know better. All of us have gone through the progression--I started out with a 12" ported Velodyne. You think it sounds AMAZING and the bass is so deep....until you hear something better, with more umph. I suggest you find out if there's a forum member with a more capable system nearby who'd let you audition it. Then you'll see what we're talking about. It's eye-opening, I promise.
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post #9 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 01:28 PM
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Man I really wish I could explain subjectively ( but that's not going to happen and completely understand) what its doing in my room and I really can't say anymore than what I have, I've driven it and threw everything I could at it and all I do is smile and a second is a no brainer ( its seriously addicting bass) as far as I'm concerned and believe me guys I'm a frugal guy and do my best to spend wisely ( I got a more than generous trade in smile.gif )I'm aware of the Seaton and Funk as they were high on my list when deciding on the KK and still knowing what those two are capable of and what DIY brings to the table, I have absolutely no regrets and would do it again. I didn't get it for prestige or any whimsical reason. You guys do yourself a major disservice by summing up without hearing as well as reading and calculating data. As a fellow bass head I'm only recommending if you get a chance to hear it or two don't pass it up you'd be in for treat wink.gif
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post #10 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

"The DXD's are specifically designed for corner placement which normally will give you the least room mode problems."
There's nothing wrong with that, it's a perfectly valid method of getting the lowest extension and highest sensitivity from the smallest possible box. But all subs realize the same benefits from corner placement, so it's hardly something to be bragging on.
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There is no replacement for displacement." Simple statement of physics, no matter what goobledy gook the mfg says. At the end of the day, those are still 2 12" woofers with 375 each watts off a plate amp
+1, and as for the typical reviewer gush, if two subs measure the same they will sound the same, period. There's nothing special about how these measure. Nothing bad, but nothing unique either.
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The DXD's put out a sound pressure wave in multiple directions
All subwoofers do.
As is so often the case claim after unsubstantiated claim is made, and as Honest Abe said, you can fool some of the people all of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time, especially when it comes to subwoofers, and those who actually understand how they work.

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The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
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post #11 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There's nothing wrong with that, it's a perfectly valid method of getting the lowest extension and highest sensitivity from the smallest possible box. But all subs realize the same benefits from corner placement, so it's hardly something to be bragging on.
+1, and as for the typical reviewer gush, if two subs measure the same they will sound the same, period. There's nothing special about how these measure. Nothing bad, but nothing unique either.
All subwoofers do.
As is so often the case claim after unsubstantiated claim is made, and as Honest Abe said, you can fool some of the people all of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time, especially when it comes to subwoofers, and those who actually understand how they work.

I understand it gives good output in a corner, but doesn't corner placement excite room modes? So how is corner placement best for room mode problems? I guess i thought room mode problems had to do with frequency response and time domain.
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post #12 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I understand it gives good output in a corner, but doesn't corner placement excite room modes? So how is corner placement best for room mode problems? I guess i thought room mode problems had to do with frequency response and time domain.
Room modes have to do with the triumvirate of distance from the speaker to the listener, distance of the speaker to boundaries, and distance from the listener to boundaries. They're exacerbated by parallel boundaries and when waves hit boundaries at right angles, reduced when waves hit boundaries at an oblique angle. That's why corner placement can help.

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post #13 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 03:22 PM
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As usual thanks for the explanation Bill. smile.gif
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post #14 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There's nothing wrong with that, it's a perfectly valid method of getting the lowest extension and highest sensitivity from the smallest possible box. But all subs realize the same benefits from corner placement, so it's hardly something to be bragging on.
+1, and as for the typical reviewer gush, if two subs measure the same they will sound the same, period. There's nothing special about how these measure. Nothing bad, but nothing unique either.
All subwoofers do.
As is so often the case claim after unsubstantiated claim is made, and as Honest Abe said, you can fool some of the people all of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time, especially when it comes to subwoofers, and those who actually understand how they work.

Bill what other subs do you know of that (I'll try to avoid using the marketing term, sound pressure wave front) are designed to work best in the corner using multiple loading points i.e driver facing the side wall along with a slot just below it for the bottom drivers wave, then the bottom driver has two other exit points with a slot behind be it smaller and another larger one on the opposite side using the back wave of the bottom driver . This is the dispersion pattern of the DXD subs and I know of no other sub that combines this approach of the best of all worlds a bottom firing sub , a sub with the driver fired into the wall I'm sure this helps with the time domain and the effects of a second doing the exact opposite atop the other would have a true omnidirectional output helping ( or the marketing term 3D pulsar effect, as this is what a pulsar actually does) or Am I missing something here!
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post #15 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

"There is no replacement for displacement." Simple statement of physics, no matter what goobledy gook the mfg says. At the end of the day, those are still 2 12" woofers with 375 each watts off a plate amp. EVERY sub will benefit from room gain.

It's clear you enjoy your subs and are proud of your purchase. But you are not hitting anywhere close to reference in the deep bass area. So when people say that you really don't know what it is you're missing out on, or in my case, that you don't have enough grunt down low to hear what some of these movies are doing, it's because we know better. All of us have gone through the progression--I started out with a 12" ported Velodyne. You think it sounds AMAZING and the bass is so deep....until you hear something better, with more umph. I suggest you find out if there's a forum member with a more capable system nearby who'd let you audition it. Then you'll see what we're talking about. It's eye-opening, I promise.

Sir with all do respect I've heard bass all my life and went through ripping out back seats in 76 Olds and slapping dual 15's in a box larger than i care to think and have been exposed to some extremely ear damaging high spl's . I'm no novice by a long shot and don't feel i've missed anything on the 5 star list and have posted on more than a few only to have graphs back them up later wink.gif Bottom line Ken's work speaks for itself and don't really understand why one of the most respected sub designers in the industry is met by so much contention here at AVS and in most cases treated as though his products in the past have failed to deliver .

Don't think for a second I'm trying to defend my purchase ,The new stuff is head and shoulders above were he left off and is a serious contender and not the hype you seem to think it is!

hear one or two and if luck a stack wink.gif
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post #16 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 05:18 PM
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What you've done, what you've heard means nothing. Performance does. No matter how you slice it, your subs will have less output than an Epik Empire (dual opposed 15s on 700(?) watts). The review linked above bears that out. All the talk about multiple radiator points, blah blah blah, doesn't negate the fact that bass requires moving air. Period. Bill and others have tried to point this out to you, to no avail.

From the review: Response is extremely impressive in the low bass (40-63 Hz) octave for a sub of this size. Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) isn't as impressive—it starts to drop below 40 Hz, and at 20 Hz, it's -9.1 dB below the much less expensive Hsu VTF-15H—but it's still substantial for a modestly sized subwoofer like this.

I'm using 2 Stereo Integrity 18s. The raw, un-eq'd, ground plane, long-term response looks like the finished 12012. Throw in an amp with flat response down to 5 Hz feeding duals, no limiters (as yours DOES employ), with an applied LT, and room gain, and this is what you get:



The db levels are not calibrated, but I certainly get WAY more than 84 db at 10 Hz, as you state you get in your room. This is a very modest setup, not able to achieve reference levels. Many posters have much more potent systems than mine. Sorry, but you're not playing on the same level, you just aren't! No offense intended. So unless you're HT is in a coat closet, you are not hitting reference levels, let alone watching WOTW at 5 dbs over reference. Your sub is incapable. Thems the facts.
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post #17 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

What you've done, what you've heard means nothing. Performance does. No matter how you slice it, your subs will have less output than an Epik Empire (dual opposed 15s on 700(?) watts). The review linked above bears that out. All the talk about multiple radiator points, blah blah blah, doesn't negate the fact that bass requires moving air. Period. Bill and others have tried to point this out to you, to no avail.

From the review: Response is extremely impressive in the low bass (40-63 Hz) octave for a sub of this size. Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz) isn't as impressive—it starts to drop below 40 Hz, and at 20 Hz, it's -9.1 dB below the much less expensive Hsu VTF-15H—but it's still substantial for a modestly sized subwoofer like this.

I'm using 2 Stereo Integrity 18s. The raw, un-eq'd, ground plane, long-term response looks like the finished 12012. Throw in an amp with flat response down to 5 Hz feeding duals, no limiters (as yours DOES employ), with an applied LT, and room gain, and this is what you get:



The db levels are not calibrated, but I certainly get WAY more than 84 db at 10 Hz, as you state you get in your room. This is a very modest setup, not able to achieve reference levels. Many posters have much more potent systems than mine. Sorry, but you're not playing on the same level, you just aren't! No offense intended. So unless you're HT is in a coat closet, you are not hitting reference levels, let alone watching WOTW at 5 dbs over reference. Your sub is incapable. Thems the facts.

That was a measurement taken with the sub well into the room not no where near a corner and not mine! I think I see where you're getting misinformed and sorry for any confusion!
And as for what I hear, its what I hear and feel biggrin.gif and no less than what I post on it and when I say reference levels I mean reference!

Have a nice day smile.gif
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post #18 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 05:37 PM
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Sigh. I give up.
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post #19 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Sir with all do respect I've heard bass all my life and went through ripping out back seats in 76 Olds and slapping dual 15's in a box larger than i care to think and have been exposed to some extremely ear damaging high spl's . I'm no novice by a long shot and don't feel i've missed anything on the 5 star list and have posted on more than a few only to have graphs back them up later wink.gif Bottom line Ken's work speaks for itself and don't really understand why one of the most respected sub designers in the industry is met by so much contention here at AVS and in most cases treated as though his products in the past have failed to deliver .

Don't think for a second I'm trying to defend my purchase ,The new stuff is head and shoulders above were he left off and is a serious contender and not the hype you seem to think it is!

hear one or two and if luck a stack wink.gif

This guy is clearly in denial. But ignorance is bliss.
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post #20 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 05:47 PM
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This guy is clearly in denial. But ignorance is bliss.

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post #21 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 05:47 PM
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Sigh. I give up.

Good its about time , and get a better sub tongue.gif
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post #22 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post

This guy is clearly in denial. But ignorance is bliss.

Not for the ones that read these ludicrous claims over multiple threads. Oh well another one to the block list i guess. smile.gif
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post #23 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 06:11 PM
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From measurement, it's one of the better sub visually and performance wise, BUT it's overprice. But lest not forget it is a retail store with dealers mark up.
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post #24 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 06:15 PM
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"There's no replacement for displacement"

I disagree. Displacement down low is irrelevant if the sub is a higher order resonant alignment or is high pass filtered or lacks amplifier power, and room gain can increase low end output exponentially more than adding displacement.
____________________________

"All subs realize the same benefit from corner placement".

Not true. Josh's test, although only addressing the subject in part, proved that every sub is not the same in a corner.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=77#!prettyPhoto

Kreisel's no dummy. Some subwoofer designs do better in a corner of a room than others. I have no idea what his specific design is, but the claim is just a fact. You can indeed design a subwoofer to perform optimally in a corner, sealed alignment is the only way to achieve full BW reproduction, ground plane torture tests do not address how a sub will perform in-room in the bottom octaves, allowing a 2nd order roll off to the bottom of the signal chain determines how much, if any, of the available displacement will be utilized, push-pull driver configuration reduces harmonic distortion... these are the basics and every commercial subwoofer violates them.

I prefer 15s, but that's irrelevant. Desired playback level is accomplished with use of multiples, after you have the rest of the beast tamed.

I can't take any reviewer who uses the word "dude" in his review seriously.

"...output at 20 Hz...". I wonder what anyone would think of a guy who reviewed mains speakers and said something like "...but no other speaker can touch this ones output at 932 Hz".
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post #25 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 06:19 PM
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Even when I try to ask questions to those who are the knowledgeable here it seems If one doesn't agree 100% with the answers , its the block list ? I thought I was being respectful in my inquiries but , I guess I was wrong on that one.


Thanks for what little info that was indeed posted that did help! smile.gif
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post #26 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 06:32 PM
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This is the dispersion pattern of the DXD subs
The dispersion pattern of the DXD is the same as that of all subs, omni-directional. Well, maybe not all subs, you can get a directional pattern when the baffle dimensions approach 1 wavelength. At 100 Hz that's eleven feet. At 20Hz that's 56 feet.
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Bottom line Ken's work speaks for itself
No one disputes that.
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and don't really understand why one of the most respected sub designers in the industry is met by so much contention here at AVS
That's what happens when marketing departments write ad copy that doesn't stand up to the light of engineering facts.

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post #27 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 06:41 PM
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Output isn't everything. S&V didn't really release a comprehensive set of measurements, only some CEA data. We know its quantitative data, but there is no qualitative data, just a subjective description. I wouldn't completely condemn this sub without having that data first. That being said, I would definitely want more output than what was measured, especially for the price.
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post #28 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 06:46 PM
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I make no judgements about sq, as I haven't heard it. But the claim that one of these can hit reference level +5 dbs is where some reality has to be injected into the discussion.
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post #29 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

I make no judgements about sq, as I haven't heard it. But the claim that one of these can hit reference level +5 dbs is where some reality has to be injected into the discussion.

Let me see if I can clear my up post on what I believe you're referring to, I watched WOTW at reference level which is "0" in my setup calibrated to 75 db c weighted for all speakers at the MLP with my RS spl meter but I only used it to confirm those levels after the Audyssey calibration on my Marantz 8801, now when I said +5 db , I was referring to running the subwoofer output hot by + 5 from the calibration. Perhaps my wording could have been better and i hope this clears it up.
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post #30 of 81 Old 08-16-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The dispersion pattern of the DXD is the same as that of all subs, omni-directional. Well, maybe not all subs, you can get a directional pattern when the baffle dimensions approach 1 wavelength. At 100 Hz that's eleven feet. At 20Hz that's 56 feet.
No one disputes that.



I completely agree all subs are omnidirectional,what I was referring to here was the dispersion pattern of the KK vs. other designs be it forward firing, down, or something like the Sub 2, the New Triax and if not mistaken the Seaton has opposing drivers as well. Am I to assume you mean they will all couple to the corner the same as the KK when corner loaded ? Also could you explain what you mean by same dispersion as i'm a bit confused given the different design approaches of the bass getting into the room.
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