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post #61 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Hey no need to be sorry. The JBL is a bad@ss sub and is a hell of a PA style sub, but for the money I think there's better HT options.

Well its definitely not a PA sub, its a theater sub. Realize that even though its FR is pretty droopy at 20 hz, that level is still a lot higher than most.

I agree that if the goal is sub ~22 hz repro, there are better options. However, there are a lot of people out there who forget about sub-20 stuff after experiencing the power and the glory of twin 4645s. wink.gif

But, not everybody, so like everything else, you need the right tool for the job.
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post #62 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

You will notice jbrown in the classifieds, DIY and of course hanging out in front of a number of different ID company's. He sports many different SW licenses and has traveled the world over in his SW quest. If I’m ever asked to write his eulogy it will be a sad day indeed. frown.gif ]

I love you man wink.gif
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post #63 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 12:00 PM
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Now if you guys really want BIG BASS.............




*
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post #64 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Tack, now that's what I want!!

Was wondering if I went with a pair of the 4641's, instead of the 2 4645's (assuming the 2241 driver is not a huge drop-off compared to the 2242).

This gives me 1k savings now and then I can add something down the road to fill the bottom, DIY etc..

Anyone with experience with the 2241 driver?

At this point nothing is off the table...Thanks guys!!!

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #65 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Tack, now that's what I want!!

Was wondering if I went with a pair of the 4641's, instead of the 2 4645's (assuming the 2241 driver is not a huge drop-off compared to the 2242).

This gives me 1k savings now and then I can add something down the road to fill the bottom, DIY etc..

Anyone with experience with the 2241 driver?

At this point nothing is off the table...Thanks guys!!!

Don't do it. The 2242 is head and shoulders better than the '41. Plus, for what they sell the complete 4645 for, its like getting the cab for free.

Resale is good too. You can basically pluck the driver out of the cab and sell it and recoup most of your cashish.

Pair them with an XTi 4002 (amp limited but still loud) or a 6002 (what?) and it gets you full para EQ, presets for your subs and more via Harmans System Architect.


Or get some cheap high power amp and roll your own EQ. Some people miss the very bottom, some don't. That's your call. GL!
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post #66 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 08:09 PM
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This gives me 1k savings now and then I can add something down the road to fill the bottom, DIY etc..

Not that it can’t be done but mixing subs is generally a bad idea, especially buying different subs to mix.

EDIT> Nice bass Tack! I can now visualize the bass you’re experiencing.cool.gif

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post #67 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post

Don't do it. The 2242 is head and shoulders better than the '41. Plus, for what they sell the complete 4645 for, its like getting the cab for free.

Resale is good too. You can basically pluck the driver out of the cab and sell it and recoup most of your cashish.

Pair them with an XTi 4002 (amp limited but still loud) or a 6002 (what?) and it gets you full para EQ, presets for your subs and more via Harmans System Architect.


Or get some cheap high power amp and roll your own EQ. Some people miss the very bottom, some don't. That's your call. GL!


4641 eliminated! smile.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #68 of 104 Old 08-19-2013, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Not that it can’t be done but mixing subs is generally a bad idea, especially buying different subs to mix.

EDIT> Nice bass Tack! I can now visualize the bass you’re experiencing.cool.gif


ah, the spoiler...lol tongue.gif

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post #69 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 316 View Post

ah, the spoiler...lol tongue.gif

If I understand you clearly, that's not my intention. I sure am glad I've recieved all the help I have in the past albeit didn’t always jive with what I had intended to do.wink.gif

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post #70 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Not that it can’t be done but mixing subs is generally a bad idea, especially buying different subs to mix.

I don't think using the 4645 would be necessarily bad to mix with another sub, if you have that other sub just taking over the deep frequencies, thereby using the 4645 as a mid bass module. Cross the 4645 over at 50 hz, where it can give you 120 dB with less than 10% distortion with even better performance at higher frequencies, and use another sub for deep bass, maybe some big sonotubes tuned down to 15 Hz maybe, that might fit behind a screen nicely.
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post #71 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

If I understand you clearly, that's not my intention. I sure am glad I've recieved all the help I have in the past albeit didn’t always jive with what I had intended to do.wink.gif

No, its all good information! If it were not for all you guys here on the forums I was about to make a costly mistake! I almost purchased PA speakers!!!!!!! I knew I wanted the JBL "sound" but was totally unaware of the pro cinema option. Along with the help provided by some other folks on these forums words cannot express the gratitude I have towards all of you who have taken time out of your lives to offer your knowledge and opinions. Sincerelly it means a lot to me!!!

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post #72 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I don't think using the 4645 would be necessarily bad to mix with another sub, if you have that other sub just taking over the deep frequencies, thereby using the 4645 as a mid bass module. Cross the 4645 over at 50 hz, where it can give you 120 dB with less than 10% distortion with even better performance at higher frequencies, and use another sub for deep bass, maybe some big sonotubes tuned down to 15 Hz maybe, that might fit behind a screen nicely.

Those were my thoughts exactly only I did not know where the crossover point would be. By covering the bottom end with a deeper base I should have the best of both worlds. I understand that I would also need an amp with serious Iron and frequency response well below 20hz and lots of power (watts). Now if I can pull this off I would be thrilled beyond words! Im getting excited just thinking about it lol.

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post #73 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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By JBL "sound" I don't mean "Just Big & Loud"...i'm talking about that Altec voice of the theater sound...15" drivers and horns. Add some deep bass and wow thats what im looking for.

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #74 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jonesjgqg View Post

You will want an amp and a limiter for it though.

Limiter? What exactly is that?

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post #75 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I don't think using the 4645 would be necessarily bad to mix with another sub, if you have that other sub just taking over the deep frequencies, thereby using the 4645 as a mid bass module. Cross the 4645 over at 50 hz, where it can give you 120 dB with less than 10% distortion with even better performance at higher frequencies, and use another sub for deep bass, maybe some big sonotubes tuned down to 15 Hz maybe, that might fit behind a screen nicely.

No I could see that working in (theory) although I have absolutely zero experience with trying to do such. At first a big flag went up, but then I noticed you implying it all behind the screen. One thing I would say regarding the sono though is that I always felt the midbass slam was quite impressive with the (not tuned to low) LLT sono/s option. It would not compete with what we’re talking about here though.

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post #76 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Limiter? What exactly is that?

It’s a circuit that limits the gain of the subwoofer thus keeping it within it’s limits.

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post #77 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 07:27 AM
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I knew I wanted the JBL "sound" but was totally unaware of the pro cinema option.

What series are you thinking about 316?

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post #78 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 07:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 316 View Post

By JBL "sound" I don't mean "Just Big & Loud"...i'm talking about that Altec voice of the theater sound...15" drivers and horns. Add some deep bass and wow thats what im looking for.

Sly and the Family Stone: "Dance to the Music"
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post #79 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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What series are you thinking about 316?

I was looking at the JRX series before I found out about the Screen Array series but years ago I had the Altec flamingos and another similar pair powered with mcintosh gear. Different sound for sure but give them 5 watts and they will fill your room.....yeah I can remember some Sly Stone, lol.

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post #80 of 104 Old 08-20-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Not that it can’t be done but mixing subs is generally a bad idea, especially buying different subs to mix.

EDIT> Nice bass Tack! I can now visualize the bass you’re experiencing.cool.gif

Ha, I wish. That's the stock photo from the Hi-Q net site. smile.gif
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post #81 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys what do you think about the horn loaded Cerwin Vega JE36C, mid bass?

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #82 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 01:05 PM
 
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Cerwin Vega JE36C

"Frequency Response: -3db 44 Hz -281 Hz / -10db 37.5 Hz - 335 Hz"

For a Home Theater system?

In my opinion, for Home Theater, they'd be a terrible choice and one would have a hard time integrating them into a room with a decent subwoofer reproduction system.

Now, if you had some neighbors you were wanting to tick off, or a girlfriend you wanted to get rid of, I'd say a pair of Cerwin Vega JE36C would be an excellent choice.
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post #83 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Kinda what I thought but wanted some feedback...thanks!

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post #84 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 03:26 PM
 
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Kinda what I thought but wanted some feedback...thanks!

I'm not so sure my feedback is the kind of feedback one would want but you're welcome.

...biggrin.gif
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post #85 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys all your feedback is welcome and worthy!!smile.gif

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post #86 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not so sure my feedback is the kind of feedback one would want but you're welcome.

...biggrin.gif


biggrin.gif sure it is








This is what I found but was not sure if it was -3db or -10db at 35hz
(What I like is the horn design)

•Frequency Response: 35 Hz – 300 Hz
•Power Capacity: 500W (RMS) 1000 Peak
•Recommended Amplifier Power: 750 w – 1000 w @ 8 ohms
•Input Connectors: 1/4 inch Phono, Speakon
•Sensitivity (1 w /1 m): 106 dB
•Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
•Maximum SPL: 136 dB
•Dimensions (H x W x D): 36 x 24 x 24 inches; 91.4 cm x 61 cm x 61 cm
•Weight: 121 lbs / 54.9 kg

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post #87 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 04:46 PM
 
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I found different but similar information on the Cerwin Vega website.


Frequency Response: -3db 44 Hz -281 Hz / -10db 37.5 Hz - 335 Hz
Power Capacity: 500W RMS / 1000W Program / 2000W Peak
Recommended Power: 750 w - 1000 w @ 8 ohms
Input Connectors:¼” Phono, Speakon
Sensitivity (1w/1m): 106 dB
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms

The information they posted threw me in that it was -3dB as opposed to the standard of +/-3dB which, in my opinion, is the equivalent of -6dB. My understanding, today's standards are a minimum reference standard of 20Hz to 120Hz, +/-3dB.

I need to point out that THX reference levels for speakers means being able to achieve 85dB with 20dB headroom as opposed to being able to play continuously at 105dB. Subwoofers are intended to have a playback level of 10dB more as bass is not as easily perceived so the reference standard is raised to 95dB with 20dB headroom, or 115dB capability. Further research has shown me that during playback, most movie theater sound reproduction systems rarely go above 90dB.

"Cinemas - do they pose a risk to hearing?"

Discussion

None of the soundtracks for any of the films had a continuous, equivalent A-weighted noise level (L Aeq ) greater than the upper safety limit of 85 dB(A) set by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE, 1989). This is broadly consistent with Ihne et al (1999) in the USA, who reported a mean L Aeq of 75.5 dB(A) across 9 films with traditional sound systems and a mean L Aeq of 84.5 dB(A) across 15 films with digital surround sound systems. In the present study the L Aeq levels measured were all below 80 dB(A) regardless of the type of sound system. When the noise levels did exceed 85 dB(A) this was for short periods of time only, usually a total of less than two or three minutes for the whole film. All the films exceeded 90 dB(A) for less than 10 seconds, with the exception of The Siege.


Another article on the matter linked below, which takes into consideration a much larger meta study, has a totally different takeaway than the above study. By combining what the two studies and THX have to share on the matter of sound levels, one gets a reasonable idea of the subjective nature of sound reproduction in one's Home Theater.

"Noise exposure in movie theaters: A preliminary study of sound levels during the showing of 25 films"

The point of the above information is my trying to tie into your question regarding the theater/commercial style subwoofer. Are you considering this subwoofer? If you are, make note that for stage performances, it's an excellent choice but for for Home Theater sound reproduction, because of it being so limited in it's ability to plumb the lower octaves (depth of reproduction), one would totally lose what a sound engineer or movie producer intended for you to hear.
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post #88 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Very valuable information! Thank you very much! smile.gif

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post #89 of 104 Old 08-24-2013, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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"The point of the above information is my trying to tie into your question regarding the theater/commercial style subwoofer. Are you considering this subwoofer? If you are, make note that for stage performances, it's an excellent choice but for for Home Theater sound reproduction, because of it being so limited in it's ability to plumb the lower octaves (depth of reproduction), one would totally lose what a sound engineer or movie producer intended for you to hear"



You raise good points which caused me to think that maybe I should explain what I am after so I will try my best to describe that "sound" (excuse me for butchering terminology) BTW, I do plan on listening to music too but not critically, that would be the job of the Acoustat 2+2's in a separate system used only for audio.

My goal: If you are familiar with the sound of 15" drivers with horns like I mentioned with the old Altecs, there is a sound that is similar to what you hear in a theater, but for the home audio setup (being closer to the driver) it has a bass slam that you only hear at concerts or on stage.

The old classic speakers that used 15" I think they are called low compression woofers and horns, that sound to my knowledge can only be found in that type or speaker setup which is what I want for theater and audio in my HT....add to that the bottom octaves that you described from a "real sub woofer" by that I mean something that is going to make you feel the rumble.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those types of low octave subs don't have that "slam and chest pump" to them and are more of a rumble/vibration. I want that too for explosions and stuff like that but in my mind I just don't think one type of subwoofer can handle both...I could be wrong and probably am but its hard because its not like I can go down to the local Audio shop and hear but again from my experience there is a sound that only horns and 15"-18" can deliver.

I don't plan on cranking my system up all the time but I want all that headroom when the action calls for it and I do not want my system to fail when called upon. If on occasion I feel like I want that concert level sound pressure on let's say a music video, I want my system to act like I'm at a concert and I want to feel that chest slam and in some types of music that low "synthetic bass" for that I think I need two different "types" of subs.

Maybe someone else can describe it much better than I can. I only know the "sound" I'm looking for.



My planned system in an acoustically treated 16x30x9 room (before false wall for speakers 3'?) :

Main speakers I am going JBL 3722's driven by Crown XLi 1500's (don't want XLS series, no iron)
Sorrounds JBL 8340's with the older wood cabintes driven by Crown XLi800's (7.1)
Two Behringer EP4000 amps to handle any sub (to be determined) duty
Emotiva UMC-200 (tentative choice)
DTV 3-D and Bluray 3D player to be determined
3D 1080P Projector to be determined
150"-160" wide AT 2.35 (curved or flat to be determined)
Saria curtains with motorized rods triggered from Emotiva or projector
two rows theater seats 4-5 per row to be determined...I want to leave room behind the last row for surround depth.

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post #90 of 104 Old 08-25-2013, 12:07 AM
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Very few commercial subs can do the kind of dynamics that those large, high sensitivity woofers can do, such as the JBL 4546. As far as speakers go, extension generally costs output, that is the trade-off. Subs made for deep bass aren't good for loud bass, and vice versa. The only way out of this is if you make your subs HUGE. Large size can give you both huge dynamics and deep extension. If I were you, I would pay close attention to this subwoofer shootout taking place today. These are exactly the kind of subs you want: massive 130+ dB SPL, and sub 20 Hz extension. Most of them aren't ones you can buy- you have to build them.
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