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post #91 of 104 Old 08-25-2013, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Very few commercial subs can do the kind of dynamics that those large, high sensitivity woofers can do, such as the JBL 4546. As far as speakers go, extension generally costs output, that is the trade-off. Subs made for deep bass aren't good for loud bass, and vice versa. The only way out of this is if you make your subs HUGE. Large size can give you both huge dynamics and deep extension. If I were you, I would pay close attention to this subwoofer shootout taking place today. These are exactly the kind of subs you want: massive 130+ dB SPL, and sub 20 Hz extension. Most of them aren't ones you can buy- you have to build them.

Sounds like it would be quite the event and in MIN too boot, wow that would be fun, me being a Viking fan in Min...I will just have to settle on being at the 49er/ Viking game tomorrow and keep my ear open for any tremor's coming from the Midwest!..that's insane bass they are describing!


More than likely what I will do is get a pair of 4546's but still holding out hope that I can get something close with less $$, and try a DIY or keep my eye open for one or two for sale down the road.

In the meantime I also have two enclosures of two Eminence 12's that I used in my old HT which rumble pretty good but lacked the upper bass snap.

If only I could hear the Orbit Shifter or the Gallagher....oh well...all options are still open smile.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #92 of 104 Old 08-25-2013, 08:07 AM
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but those types of low octave subs don't have that "slam and chest pump" to them and are more of a rumble/vibration. I want that too for explosions and stuff like that but in my mind I just don't think one type of subwoofer can handle both...I could be wrong and probably am but its hard because its not like I can go down to the local Audio shop and hear but again from my experience there is a sound that only horns and 15"-18" can deliver.

I don't plan on cranking my system up all the time but I want all that headroom when the action calls for it and I do not want my system to fail when called upon. If on occasion I feel like I want that concert level sound pressure on let's say a music video, I want my system to act like I'm at a concert and I want to feel that chest slam and in some types of music that low "synthetic bass" for that I think I need two different "types" of subs.

Your above, outlines your dilemma very nicely. First things first, absolutely, a well thought out and integrated subwoofer sound reproduction system will have "PLENTY!" of "slam and chest pump." A poorly thought out, anemic, underpowered, poorly integrated subwoofer sound reproduction system, won't give you diddle and will become one of life's disappointments. I hate it when in the end, it actually becomes philosophical; gestalt.

Please, please, please, despite what folks will post, do not confuse music and Home Theater. Once one tries to think music is Home Theater and Home Theater is music, all hope of understanding the why of it all, is gone. Pffft, out the window.

Most music does not go below 31Hz unless specifically engineered to do so; synthetic; pseudo; fake. If one tried, I guess one could say an eighty foot pipe organ pipe is normal and not fake or intentionally grandiose; unnatural. How many natural and normal gigawatts of dirty power are being pumped into the stadium where the rock concert is taking place? Mid-Bass slam is in the 40Hz to 80Hz range. What complex, decaying frequencies does the sound of a thunder clap comprise. Is this same event fifteen seconds away (~3mi) in the unrestrained environment of the mountains (lots of echo and reverb rolling into the distance) or right next to the protagonist as they heroically try to save the day with mood, flash, camera action (distractions) and micro-transient special effect sounds being reproduced in an uber expensive IMAX theater; crash, boom, bang? How accurate is your DAC converter which takes life's natural sine wave and breaks it up into ones and zeros, exclaiming in the process that none of the sine waves properties have been lost in translation?

Oooookay, I admit, that's some good coffee. Boiled water, hand poured over fresh ground French Roast with no adulterations. Pure, simple, smooth, honest and lots of freaking caffeine. tongue.gif

With all the gestalt BS out of the way, onto reality; pick one, music or Home Theater for in my opinion, this decision makes all the difference in the world as to the who, what and why of putting a soul satisfying subwoofer based sound reproduction system together. Pick one and understand, it's all about the Benjamins and in my estimation, if one sets a budget and realistically triples or quadruples this stated budget, they'll be in the ballpark of their most reasonable expectations. If one thinks they're going get a $20,000.00 subwoofer system for $800.00 they're in for some major disappointment.

Just saying, based on a post of yours, a few posts back on the last page, if hiding at least four subs in a dedicated room, at both the back behind chairs and front behind an AT screen, you're into subwoofers I'm clueless about but I am seeing a subwoofer budget of up to $8,000.00 becoming a reality.

Think Subwoofers: Box Tops: "Soul Deep"

But then again, does one need to raise the roof to find their subwoofer bliss or are they doing nothing more then meeting some unknown person's ideal of how things should be and it's more about impressing the Jones' than one stopping and enjoying their system.

...confused.gif

(49er's rock)

(the 49er's got robbed last year in the final not called pass interference. the officials, Baltimore and the world knows it)

(this year, I hope Jim's driven nature, if not already, won't break the spirit of the 49er's as this year, in my opinion, he's driven to the point of being a mad man and I'm afraid the players will suffer for it)

(today's game, coach Harbaugh to prospects: "In a nutshell, for some of you, there is no tomorrow.")

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post #93 of 104 Old 08-25-2013, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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"If one thinks they're going get a $20,000.00 subwoofer system for $800.00 they're in for some major disappointment.

Just saying, based on a post of yours, a few posts back on the last page, if hiding at least four subs in a dedicated room, at both the back behind chairs and front behind an AT screen, you're into subwoofers I'm clueless about but I am seeing a subwoofer budget of up to $8,000.00 becoming a reality."






I think if I can spend 4k and get an 8k system I will be stoked! tongue.gif Yes and I get your points in everything you said in your last post (except the 9er thing, lol).
What I expect out of my HT system is the same thing I expect out of my audio system but understand that neither will be a perfect reproduction of reality. In my audio system I'm looking for the depth, width, height etc of the soundstage where you can "visually hear" where every instrument is being played and I can hear the finest nuances of the music,,,,plucked strings, etc,,...


...in my HT when I watch a video and lets say a helicopter is coming up from behind the scene and landing in front view on the screen, I want to hear that Helicopter "sound" coming faintly from behind in the rear surrounds and and as it gets closer blending into all the speakers and visually recreating the action audibly as if it were real (understanding that its really not) and that takes a subwoofer/speaker system that is "large" to recreate that effect.

...on the other hand, the movie is playing and they go to a concert and a band is playing, I want my HT system to recreate that concert or in the case of say a nice little jazz session like in the movie "Mo better blues" I can hear some good music because in my mind I think the HT system should do what an audio system should do, "recreate" reality, which is impossible but the closer it comes the better...if all that makes sense. It is harder for a HT system than it is on a pure audio system because in music there are no helicopters landing in front of you or bombs exploding. I think its true that a HT system is not a music system, its much more.

So..., in order to do that the system has to be dynamic, lots of power, speakers, decoding, etc,, to "manipulate the environment" in my 16x30 room just as my projector should do the same within that screen....I think that only Imax comes close to what we can do in a HT, we should easily be able to do better than our local theater can because for one, we have the advantage of being "closer " to the action which to me is the whole idea in that we are supposed to be right in the "middle of the action" as if we were "invisibly there". The closer we are the more realistic the feeling and the "larger" the system, the more realistic it will feel.


...okay now from one dream world into another...imagine 4 curved screens and 4 flat screens to create a 360degree visual field around you in 3D..HA! Now when that happens eek.gif Seriously though I can see that happening because in my lifetime I remember as a kid in the early 70's experimenting with speakers on the TV set to create a stereo setup by adding two speakers and later feeding that mono signal into a stereo to amplify it even more only to see all this develop into what we now have which is what I was trying to do many years ago in my home without the money or technology...but that's another discussion for another day...smile.gif


Back to the point, I really don't want the grout cracking or things falling apart in our home or even permanent ear damage out of my subwoofer system, there are limits but I certainly do not want that anemic, underpowered system you described, I already had that!! tongue.gif

BeeMan, thanks for your insight and I love your links,,,cool!!
40hz-80hz, that explains why I like the sound from the JBL and why I think the 4546 will fill that need perfectly but can I get an $800 sub to do the same thing is the question,,,lol

WOW amazing, I just watched the Imax video and she was talking about the same helicopter thing....lol....the stars are lining up!! biggrin.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #94 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I think Im going to give these a try: Dayton Audio 15" Ultimax Subwoofer DIY kit

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-7097

I think 4 of these should do the trick on the sub bass and I plan on using a pair of JBL 4645C's for the mid bass and depending on how it goes I can add two more Daytons. The Daytons go down to 15HZ, I think that should meet my needs and give me the biggest bang for my buck. smile.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #95 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 12:33 PM
 
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Geeze! Oh my gosh! LOL

Just read your second to the last post. So many things expected. No, really, how do you feel? tongue.gif

....................................................................

Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

What I expect out of my HT system is the same thing I expect out of my audio system but understand that neither will be a perfect reproduction of reality. In my audio system I'm looking for the depth, width, height etc of the soundstage where you can "visually hear" where every instrument is being played and I can hear the finest nuances of the music,,,,plucked strings, etc,,...

My recommendation is to bust up the focused sound stage. The traditional speaker position is to focus the sound stage at a single point and in doing this, one shrinks a large stage to the unnatural, micro-focused sound stage that is between one's ears. In theory, sounds like the way things should be done. Enters me and a sound meter at a local performing arts center during a dress rehearsal. I was the only fool dressed up. tongue.gif

I was pretty much the only person in the hall and I discovered that the sound was anything but focused but instead was airily disbursed, all around me. It seemed as if you could reach out and pluck the sound from the air but it was all around you. There was no focus to the sound and then I had that ah-ha moment. To recreate what I was hearing in the performing arts center, I kicked the speaker out an inch or so as opposed to the focused sound stage we're all taught to recreate. In doing this, I finally achieved what you want. An eighty foot wide sound stage in my living room. With eyes closed, I finally had the sound placement we all want but never seem to get.....all because where unnaturally focusing the sound at the area between our ears.

Quote:
...in my HT when I watch a video and lets say a helicopter is coming up from behind the scene and landing in front view on the screen, I want to hear that Helicopter "sound" coming faintly from behind in the rear surrounds and and as it gets closer blending into all the speakers and visually recreating the action audibly as if it were real (understanding that its really not) and that takes a subwoofer/speaker system that is "large" to recreate that effect.

Yes and no. Think timbre and matched speaker sensitivity. It reads like, I'm sure, you're already onto these points. Our mains are 100dB sensitivity, the center channel is 99db but our surrounds are only 94dB sensitivity. That's clearly noticeable. With that in mind, the surrounds need to be upgraded to the newer versions that are 97dB sensitive. As you can see, ya do the best you can and that's all you can do. Short of going to a whole new system surrounding some Martin Logan, Ethos mains, pretty much, I'm SOL as to an musical improvement on what we currently have.

I also have an AVR upgrade coming in the near future but between household/family commitments, other hobbies, surround and subwoofer upgrades, the AVR upgrade is going have to stand in line.

Quote:
...on the other hand, the movie is playing and they go to a concert and a band is playing, I want my HT system to recreate that concert or in the case of say a nice little jazz session like in the movie "Mo better blues" I can hear some good music because in my mind I think the HT system should do what an audio system should do, "recreate" reality, which is impossible but the closer it comes the better...if all that makes sense. It is harder for a HT system than it is on a pure audio system because in music there are no helicopters landing in front of you or bombs exploding. I think its true that a HT system is not a music system, its much more.

Yes. The dynamics of a full on action sequence blows the demands of music, totally out of the water as we're trying to recreate 10Hz at a 100dB and then back to zero again, all in fractions of a second. "Act of Valor: Boat Scene"

Quote:
So..., in order to do that the system has to be dynamic, lots of power, speakers, decoding, etc,, to "manipulate the environment" in my 16x30 room just as my projector should do the same within that screen....I think that only Imax comes close to what we can do in a HT, we should easily be able to do better than our local theater can because for one, we have the advantage of being "closer " to the action which to me is the whole idea in that we are supposed to be right in the "middle of the action" as if we were "invisibly there". The closer we are the more realistic the feeling and the "larger" the system, the more realistic it will feel.

Today's consumer technology is "FINALLY" catching up with your above. But one needs to marry up, AVR, speakers, screen and subwoofer to get the Full Monte and that's going cost a bundle.

Quote:
Back to the point, I really don't want the grout cracking or things falling apart in our home or even permanent ear damage out of my subwoofer system, there are limits but I certainly do not want that anemic, underpowered system you described, I already had that!! tongue.gif

In my opinion, based on the same type of experience you have, realistic expectations based on real world experience, one's dreams can come true.

Meat Loaf: "Rock & Roll Dreams Come Through"

The rest of the world doesn't have to understand.
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post #96 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 12:38 PM
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That is going to make for a great system, however the Daytons in that cabinet won't go flat down to 15 Hz, in a sealed box they have an f3 of 33 Hz. You will need some EQ and room gain to get them evenly to 15, but that might suffice. In either case, I think you will be very pleased with that setup.
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post #97 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

That is going to make for a great system, however the Daytons in that cabinet won't go flat down to 15 Hz, in a sealed box they have an f3 of 33 Hz.
They can get close, depending on the cabin gain of the room, which can approach 12dB/octave, offsetting the 2nd order roll off of a sealed sub. But the room's longest dimension would have to be no more than 18 feet or so, and it would have to be tight. With the OPs 30 foot room cabin gain won't occur above 18Hz, so what he'd get would be negligible.
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You will need some EQ
That's where one has to tread lightly, lest the excursion limits of the driver are reached. If 15Hz is the goal I'd go with a different design, probably vented for that size room.

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post #98 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Geeze! Oh my gosh! LOL

Just read your second to the last post. So many things expected. No, really, how do you feel? tongue.gif


smile.gif Feeling pretty good, lol....shooting for the stars but I'll settle for the clouds, at least I'm off the ground! wink.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #99 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

That is going to make for a great system, however the Daytons in that cabinet won't go flat down to 15 Hz, in a sealed box they have an f3 of 33 Hz. You will need some EQ and room gain to get them evenly to 15, but that might suffice. In either case, I think you will be very pleased with that setup.

Unfortunately somewhere I have to do some compromising and the Daytons seem like a good compromise for now....later on down the road if I'm not satisfied which I already know I will get the upgaditis I can see about pulling off a Danley or Galaghorns or something of that nature...unless I find a deal on some used ones here in the bay area before I get the daytons.....been keeping my eyes on craigslist...lol

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post #100 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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They can get close, depending on the cabin gain of the room, which can approach 12dB/octave, offsetting the 2nd order roll off of a sealed sub. But the room's longest dimension would have to be no more than 18 feet or so, and it would have to be tight. With the OPs 30 foot room cabin gain won't occur above 18Hz, so what he'd get would be negligible.
That's where one has to tread lightly, lest the excursion limits of the driver are reached. If 15Hz is the goal I'd go with a different design, probably vented for that size room.


Bill, what can I expect from the subs? The room will probably end up about -24' - 26'. I have not made a firm decision on the false wall yet. Do you know if porting that woofer in that box would make any difference? The thing that attracts me to the Dayton kit is that the box is already cut, the price, and the woofer appears to be of good quality... so it seems like that setup has a lot going on for the price.

I think the 3722's want to see about 18' so I am going to go with 2 rows of seats and would like to keep some space between the last row of seats and the wall. My main goal is to make sure the 3722's and my screen are "dialed in" and the subs will hopefully fall in line eventually if not perfectly for now if that makes sense...

Thanks guys!

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post #101 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 05:54 PM
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Bill, what can I expect from the subs?
You might have useful response to 25Hz without excursion issues. That driver ported can work well to 15Hz, but the cab would have to be at least 8 cu ft plus the port volume. Going low and going loud requires going big.

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post #102 of 104 Old 08-30-2013, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You might have useful response to 25Hz without excursion issues. That driver ported can work well to 15Hz, but the cab would have to be at least 8 cu ft plus the port volume. Going low and going loud requires going big.


25hz wont cut it even if temporary....at $189.00 a driver x4 (I like that quality/price point) I might just have to seriously consider building a couple boxes for them. I like the drivers...don't know why but I do. Maybe its the demo where the guy tried to poke them hard with a screwdriver and they just smiled back, lol. I just don't see any other 15"-18" drivers at that price point with the potential of hitting 15HZ. Now I can buy 6 if I build my own cabinets eek.gif


Can you point me in the right direction as far as cabinet size, port etc for two per cab with this woofer? I'm thinking depending on size I can place all six flat horizontal as speaker stands with the 3722's and 4645's on top if the size allows it ... which Im thinking its all how I shape the cabinets given the volume?


I'm a few months away from starting on the HT build but I'm trying to accumulate everything I can so when I hit the ground most of the gear is in my possession.

Thanks!!

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post #103 of 104 Old 09-01-2013, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Picked up a pair of EVTL606's today. Hard to pass up at 400.00 for the pair. Also bought 6 8340 wood case surrounds I passed on 4 8340a's. I hooked up the 8340's to my Yamaha and EV's to the Crown XLi2500 and wow if this is a small sample of what is to come I can't wait!! What a difference. I'll post more tomorrow about my experience at the THX liquidation sale today. Had a chance to hear a few different sets of subs.


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post #104 of 104 Old 09-01-2013, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
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