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post #1 of 104 Old 08-17-2013, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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In the beginning stages of my HT design and so far I have decided for better or worse on the following speakers:

JBL 3722 front (bi-amp with tube amps on horns) Crown XLS 2000 amps
JBL 8340 (wood cabinets) surrounds. Crown XLS 1500 amps


Now I need a sub to match with this setup. My room is 16 x 30 x 9 but length will change with false wall for speakers/screen

Im looking at JBL subs like the 4641, 4642, 4645. Amp will be a Crown XLS 2500 bridged

It appears that the 4645 would be a better choice with the 2242 woofer but is it worth the extra $500.00 over the 4641?
Would the 4642 with dual woofers be better than the 4645 given the 2242 woofer?
Would anything else beat a pair of 4645's in the price range roughly 2k for the pair?

Or... should I go with another sub MFG?

Appreciate any feedback!

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #2 of 104 Old 08-17-2013, 06:51 PM
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There is a great review of the 4645 here. It doesn't really do deep bass but it has big mid bass output and monstrous upper bass output. I can't tell you how it would compare to to the other JBL cinema subs, you would probably have to contact a JBL rep for that. At 2k for a pair of those, that would make a killer system. You will want an amp and a limiter for it though.
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post #3 of 104 Old 08-17-2013, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, I'll check that out!

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post #4 of 104 Old 08-17-2013, 07:36 PM
 
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What kind of price are you expecting to pay total for the JBL 4645 and an amplifier? The reason I ask, I see the PSA, XS30 as the esoteric middle for if you spend less, you're hurting yourself and more, you're going have to spend a lot more to beat what a pair of XS30's will do for an open room.
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post #5 of 104 Old 08-17-2013, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Well the amp is $550 and two 4645's will run about $2100 so if I could spend less and get more I'm all for that. I do not want to spend more. In my mind 18" drivers move more air and to me seem to be hard for any smaller driver to match all things equal. I will look into the PSA more...thanks!!

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post #6 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Well the amp is $550 and two 4645's will run about $2100 so if I could spend less and get more I'm all for that. I do not want to spend more. In my mind 18" drivers move more air and to me seem to be hard for any smaller driver to match all things equal. I will look into the PSA more...thanks!!

Yes that’s the thing, all things aren’t equal. The JBL driver doesn’t have the excursion to plum the depths that you’re looking for and thus a much higher tune. The driver’s design and the enclosure that surrounds it are geared for a different application that wouldn’t serve you well imo. As Bee suggests the XS30 would be a good choice. I can see dual XV30’s or 30f’s being a great option also in the PSA line.

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post #7 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 02:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Well the amp is $550 and two 4645's will run about $2100 so if I could spend less and get more I'm all for that. I do not want to spend more. In my mind 18" drivers move more air and to me seem to be hard for any smaller driver to match all things equal. I will look into the PSA more...thanks!!

In your above, you did make it easy. Thank-you! Take two, PSA, XS30's and call me in the morning.

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post #8 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 04:59 AM
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Dual XS30s would be sweet. A couple other options include dual HSU ULS-15s and Rythmik F15s.
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post #9 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I just don't see how a 15" driver will out perform an 18" driver unless its a cheap 18" driver and the 2242 is no cheap driver. I was hoping the XS30 was available in an 18" version but its not but I will certainly consider it though. I like the low end specs on it (sub 20 hz).

I will look into the others mentioned..thanks!

Any 18's out there with sub 20hz in this price range?

Hey Steve I just saw your post after writing the above comments, your giving me a better understanding but if a 15" is providing something the 18" can't, certainly the 18" is providing something the 15" can't correct? I'm sold on the sub 20hz, I get that, but there has to be something else right? I don't know why but for some reason the idea of an 18" driver being a better choice is stuck in my mind but I have no experience that I can recall to explain that bias.

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post #10 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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So i'm thinking the fog is starting to dissipate, the 18"s would move more air which I can see being a benefit in a larger room but in my room I need more low end bass that can be felt and that's why the 15's would serve me better Steve?

I do know from experience the feeling of chest thumping bass and lower vibrating feeling type of bass, how can I get both?
I know I'm going to get the volume in soundstage from the JBL's and horns and I love that sound so no negotiating there but I really want the low end to compliment it.


You guys are all really helping and I sincerely appreciate it!!

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post #11 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 08:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

I just don't see how a 15" driver will out perform an 18" driver unless its a cheap 18" driver and the 2242 is no cheap driver.

In the simple, two fifteen inch drivers equal one eighteen inch driver. And in a sealed cabinet, there's the case question of how much excursion (Xmax) does a driver have?

"Piston excursion calculator"

20Hz output for a sealed subwoofer, 18" driver with 14mm Xmax (104db) vs two 15" drivers with 25mm Xmax; 112db.

12Hz output for a sealed subwoofer, 18" driver with 14mm Xmax (95db) vs two 15" drivers with 25mm Xmax; 103db.



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post #12 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:11 AM
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Well it’s not all driver dependent. It’s the driver, design, power, tune and how the driver relates. All things being equal a 12” will take out a 10” and so on up the scale. All things not being equal a 12” can take out a 15” or even a 18” for that matter but it depends on the drivers parameters and how it’s implemented. A good 18” will definitely take out a good 15” implemented in the same design and powered accordingly though. Don’t get me wrong, 18” is good, smile.gif but not worth it’s weight if it’s a 18” that’s made for a pro sub that a guy wants to use for a HT application.

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post #13 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:19 AM
 
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Well it’s not all driver dependent. It’s the driver, design, power, tune and how the driver relates. All things being equal a 12” will take out a 10” and so on up the scale. All things not being equal a 12” can take out a 15” or even a 18” for that matter but it depends on the drivers parameters and how it’s implemented. A good 18” will definitely take out a good 15” implemented in the same design and powered accordingly though. Don’t get me wrong, 18” is good, smile.gif but not worth it’s weight if it’s a 18” that’s made for a pro sub that a guy wants to use for a HT application.

Agreeing with your above, hence why I mention the XS30 which comprises of two fifteen inch subwoofers, each with a larger than normal Xmax. As you pointed out, all things being equal, I wouldn't expect a single 15" driver to keep up with a single 18" driver but two 15" drivers, and now you have something going on.

I'm sure just one of these Clydesdales could easily pull the Budweiser wagon but it sure wouldn't (sound) look as good. biggrin.gif



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post #14 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:27 AM
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Agreeing with your above hence why I mention the XS30 which comprises of two fifteen inch subwoofers, each with a larger than normal Xmax. As you pointed out, all things being equal, I wouldn't expect a single 15" driver to keep up with a single 18" driver but two 15" drivers, and now you have something going on.

I was trying to keep things as simple as I could without complicating things. we were on differen't tracks is all.

EDIT> Nothing in my post was in relation to what you said Bee, it was directed towards the OP and his question.

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post #15 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:34 AM
 
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I was trying to keep things as simple as I could without complicating things. we were on differen't tracks is all.

Well, if anybody can screw things up, I'm your man. biggrin.gif

My current personal goal is to buy a pair of XS30's and stack them. Currently two of our three subwoofers are stacked and the third one is close enough to the stacked pair so they all will co-locate in their output but their combined output is only acceptable but nothing like what we are all wanting. My choice, add a fourth subwoofer or start over and swing for the fence.

Complicating things? It's a God given talent that I have honed to a fine edge over many decades. I'm also known for making a short story long....well, according to my wife that is.

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post #16 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:41 AM
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Well, if anybody can screw things up, I'm your man. biggrin.gif

It's all good, I editited and you posted at the same time. smile.gif The XS30 would be a very good option/choice imo.

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It's all good, I editited and you posted at the same time. smile.gif The XS30 would be a very good option/choice imo.

It's that speed typing I learned in eighth grade.
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post #18 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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BeeMan, thanks, yes I understand the dual 15's vs single 18" and yes Steve all things equal bigger driver should be better than smaller driver but in this case the 15" is designed better than the 18" so it will outperform the 18" ..cool, makes sense...but having said that...is there an 18" in this price range that is up to task because..., getting back to BeeMan's example, it would be even better to have those dual 18's instead of dual 15"s. The 4645 I'm pretty much ruling out due to the low end not being where I feel I would be happy. BTW, I just finished viewing a video on youtube on the Rythmik F15s...very impressive.

One other thing that I have always believed is that a sealed sub is better...keep in mind now I'm 53 years old so I've seen a lot of this stuff from way back in the day where sealed woofers ruled, horn loaded woofers respected, and porting was a new thing so the idea of a sealed sub is attractive

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post #19 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:47 AM
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If set on the 18" size, you could build your own. You could go with four sealed 18" with flatpacks from diysoundgroup.com with either Dayton or Stereo Integrity drivers and maybe a different pro amp than the crown for sub duty, believe they roll off below 20hz.

Now why a tube amp in that mix at all?

ps I like the dual XS30 suggestion. If you could afford, two Seaton Submersives would be even better.
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post #20 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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oh, BeeMan, two 15's in the XS30...okay I get it!! eek.gif

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post #21 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
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BeeMan, thanks, yes I understand the dual 15's vs single 18" and yes Steve all things equal bigger driver should be better than smaller driver but in this case the 15" is designed better than the 18" so it will outperform the 18" ..cool, makes sense...but having said that...is there an 18" in this price range that is up to task because..., getting back to BeeMan's example, it would be even better to have those dual 18's instead of dual 15"s. The 4645 I'm pretty much ruling out due to the low end not being where I feel I would be happy. BTW, I just finished viewing a video on youtube on the Rythmik F15s...very impressive.

One other thing that I have always believed is that a sealed sub is better...keep in mind now I'm 53 years old so I've seen a lot of this stuff from way back in the day where sealed woofers ruled, horn loaded woofers respected, and porting was a new thing so the idea of a sealed sub is attractive

A XS30 wouldn't have any troubles keeping up with a F15 from Rythmik.
Dual XS30's would pretty much be right in the wheel house of your budget too, coming in at $2185 including shipping. IMO they offer phenomenal performance/value ratio.

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post #22 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 09:58 AM
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BeeMan, thanks, yes I understand the dual 15's vs single 18" and yes Steve all things equal bigger driver should be better than smaller driver but in this case the 15" is designed better than the 18" so it will outperform the 18" ..cool, makes sense...but having said that...is there an 18" in this price range that is up to task because..., getting back to BeeMan's example, it would be even better to have those dual 18's instead of dual 15"s. The 4645 I'm pretty much ruling out due to the low end not being where I feel I would be happy. BTW, I just finished viewing a video on youtube on the Rythmik F15s...very impressive.

One other thing that I have always believed is that a sealed sub is better...keep in mind now I'm 53 years old so I've seen a lot of this stuff from way back in the day where sealed woofers ruled, horn loaded woofers respected, and porting was a new thing so the idea of a sealed sub is attractive

dual xs30's would be quad 15's. For a 2k budget and wanting dual subs, you will not do any better then those offerings unles you go diy. Sealed is not better than ported and vice versa. Both have thier pros and cons...I would base that decision off of the room size and if the room is open or sealed. A ported sub generally will have 4-6db around the port tune over a sealed sub of the same caliber. example would be comparing the xs30 to the xv30. Now if you have a smallish sealed room the xs30 would probably take better advantage of the room gain and extend lower with more useable output. If your room is large and open to other rooms in the house the xv30 would provide more useable extension.
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post #23 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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loventhehd, thanks man, the tube amps in my experience "soften the horns" and the JBL wants to see 50watts on the horn in biamp mode so a 60watt Kt88 tube amp would be nice and give me a wow factor if I display them somehow into my HT design.

I did see some sub kits with Dayton drivers at parts express...not sure of the quality but they doo have 15" & 18" sealed subs and I agree with the amp...don't think the Crown has the damping factor for those woofers

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post #24 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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jbrown, yeah they sure are looking good at this point.... 4- 15"s !! Wow!!

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post #25 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
One other thing that I have always believed is that a sealed sub is better...keep in mind now I'm 53 years old so I've seen a lot of this stuff from way back in the day where sealed woofers ruled, horn loaded woofers respected, and porting was a new thing so the idea of a sealed sub is attractive

If sealed is what you want to do, I certainly can understand that. I will say at HT meets when blind meets have been done, one could not tell the difference from the other when the units being listened to were both quality units and implemented correctly. That being that, I find a good quality sealed every bit as enjoyable as a good quality vented design. My two 18” sealed are wonderfull imo but I get the same enjoyment from vented DIY or good ID options as well. Guess I'm SW bie redface.gif

EDIT> Some of it can be room dependent of course.
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post #26 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 10:31 AM
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loventhehd, thanks man, the tube amps in my experience "soften the horns" and the JBL wants to see 50watts on the horn in biamp mode so a 60watt Kt88 tube amp would be nice and give me a wow factor if I display them somehow into my HT design.

I did see some sub kits with Dayton drivers at parts express...not sure of the quality but they doo have 15" & 18" sealed subs and I agree with the amp...don't think the Crown has the damping factor for those woofers

The Crown thing is by design as far as I know, another owner (I have two XLS1500s for mains duty) called Crown and posted this verified my findings with crown tech support. The XLS is rated 20-20K response. Below 20, it has a 12db / octave roll off I guess as a make shift subsonic or just to conserve power or something. I knew I felt a few db less weight LOL.

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Hi, thanks, the room is sealed with only a door. I don't know yet how much length will be lost until I get the speakers issue settled for the false wall. I prefer all the subs to be behind or under the screen.

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post #28 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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If sealed is what you want to do, I certainly can understand that. I will say at HT meets when blind meets have been done, one could not tell the difference from the other when the units being listened to were both quality units and implemented correctly. That being that, I find a good quality sealed every bit as enjoyable as a good quality vented design. My two 18” sealed are wonderfull imo but I get the same enjoyment from vented DIY or good ID options as well. Guess I'm SW bie redface.gif

EDIT> Some of it can be room dependent of course.




Hi, thanks, the room is sealed with only a door. I don't know yet how much length will be lost until I get the speakers issue settled for the false wall. I prefer all the subs to be behind or under the screen.

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post #29 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

The Crown thing is by design as far as I know, another owner (I have two XLS1500s for mains duty) called Crown and posted this verified my findings with crown tech support. The XLS is rated 20-20K response. Below 20, it has a 12db / octave roll off I guess as a make shift subsonic or just to conserve power or something. I knew I felt a few db less weight LOL.


Iron...lol its all in the iron....Im amazed at how these subs with the built in amps can do what they do without heavy iron!

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post #30 of 104 Old 08-18-2013, 11:01 AM
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Hi, thanks, the room is sealed with only a door. I don't know yet how much length will be lost until I get the speakers issue settled for the false wall. I prefer all the subs to be behind or under the screen.

Behind the screen? Here is a 18” option that might be of interest? Look at the numbers with this puppy. smile.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

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