Subwoofer choice. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,

I'm always pinching info from AVS so thought it was about time I joined. I'm in need of your opinions please.

My system consists of...

Samsung D8000 TV
Onkyo TX-SR 705 AVR
Mission MX3 fronts
Mission MXC1 centre
Mission dipole surrounds
X2 Paradigm PDR 10 MKI subwoofers.

You can see where this is going by the last item on the list! My old trusty PDR10's are getting rather long in the tooth and are a little slow for my taste. They are co-located and set to just underpin the fronts and provide the LFE wallop! They do an admirable job for such old subs, I've had one forever and the other one I acquired for free and set up with the existing one as on it's own could get pushed sometimes in my room.

I'm not a bass junkie like some, I'll take properly set up, accurate bass over sheer quantity that clouds the rest of the detail in the mix.

Anyway, I have an opportunity to get a Tannoy TS-10 or Mission M3AS for around £50, but I'm not sure if either will be any more capable than 2 PDR 10's. The Tannoy is sealed and seemed to get good reviews when it was released, I'm sure this would offer tighter bass but am I replacing old for old and would be better off waiting and getting a BK Gemini or XLS200 after Xmas. (Budget is an issue at the moment while the missus is on maternity leave!)

Any opinions would be appreciated especially if you've heard the Mission or the Tannoy subs.

PS.

I'm new to the forum and I work for Bang & Olufsen (non brainwashed hence my system!). I'll answer any B&O questions that anyone might have in the future biggrin.gif
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post #2 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 05:32 AM
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When it comes to subwoofers, upgrades should be done in big steps, otherwise it may not produce the expected results, I would try relocating the subwoofers to a better position until funds allow for a better upgrade. But for 50, I might as well get the subwoofers and try it out or just save the money for the future upgrade
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post #3 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the quick response. The subs are in a good spot in the room and I'm reluctant to have them separate as they don't have phase control. Surely a BK XLS200 is a huge upgrade from a very old PDR-10?
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post #4 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 05:54 AM
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The Gemini uses a Peerless XLS drivers and their well regarded and being used by several other subwoofer manufacturers. Just not sure if it would be better than the Paradigm subwoofers. Check out the budget subwoofer threads, it has a lot of recommended subwoofers in the US $300 range. Just not sure what is available from your side of the pond.
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post #5 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks
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post #6 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMW View Post

Thanks for the quick response. The subs are in a good spot in the room and I'm reluctant to have them separate as they don't have phase control. Surely a BK XLS200 is a huge upgrade from a very old PDR-10?

there is no such thing as slow bass. what you are hearing is both subs exciting a room mode that is causing a peak in the frequency response. the idea of multiple subs is smooth the response with proper placement. There are eq devices on the market that will calibrate the subs correctly.
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post #7 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 06:26 AM
 
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Welcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMW View Post

I'm not a bass junkie like some, I'll take properly set up, accurate bass over sheer quantity that clouds the rest of the detail in the mix.

Your above succeeds in showing all who know, you're a closeted bass junkie. First things first, the best subwoofer in the world will have the detail of it's output clouded by poor placement due to it's output being destroyed by a room's acoustics. The point, quantity does not cloud the detail of the mix but, agreeing with you, poor placement will.

Based on that, my first question to your first posted comment: do you have room measuring capability? The poignancy of the question, if one can't measure and properly place their subwoofer reproduction system, then they'll have absolutely zero chance of obtaining what you're wanting out of your subwoofer sound reproduction system. With a freeware copy of REW (pain to learn/easy to use) and a sound meter that has a mic out, one can easily set up and measure their room's acoustical response to their subwoofer system's output. In the simple, without room measuring capability, there is no hope.

Quote:
Anyway, I have an opportunity to get a Tannoy TS-10 or Mission M3AS for around £50, but I'm not sure if either will be any more capable than 2 PDR 10's. The Tannoy is sealed and seemed to get good reviews when it was released, I'm sure this would offer tighter bass but am I replacing old for old and would be better off waiting and getting a BK Gemini or XLS200 after Xmas. (Budget is an issue at the moment while the missus is on maternity leave!)

Just saying, based on your above comments, you've set the bar mighty high and with great expectations will come major disappointments. Of the two subwoofers you mentioned, based on specifications I found online, I'd go with the Tannoy TS-10 due to it having a 300w amp and 29Hz depth of output vs that of the Mission subwoofer and hopefully you'll couple this subwoofer with a freeware download of REW so you can see and "properly set-up" your subwoofer sound reproductions system.

Wishing you well with all the future has to offer.
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post #8 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe EQ gear would be a better investment. They are in a room mode as I did the old subwoofer crawl when I placed them. I think Audyssey does a limited amount of subwoofer correction but I'll seperate them and try a few different spots in the room. Re-calibrate and see what happens. Maybe there's life in the old PDR 10's after all. smile.gif
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post #9 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Your above succeeds in showing all who know, you're a closeted bass junkie. First things first, the best subwoofer in the world will have the detail of it's output clouded by poor placement due to it's output being destroyed by a room's acoustics. The point, quantity does not cloud the detail of the mix but, agreeing with you, poor placement will.

Maybe I came across wrong there. I meant a lot of setups that I've heard with a sub involved I find the user has it set the sub gain and roll off so high thinking more is better so all you hear is the sub thumping away in the corner and main speakers are clouded by it. I always thought a well set up sub shouldn't draw attention to itself.

I totally take your point about REW, I've heard of it but never played around with it. I'll invest in a mic!
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post #10 of 10 Old 08-22-2013, 07:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMW View Post

Maybe I came across wrong there. I meant a lot of setups that I've heard with a sub involved I find the user has it set the sub gain and roll off so high thinking more is better so all you hear is the sub thumping away in the corner and main speakers are clouded by it. I always thought a well set up sub shouldn't draw attention to itself.

Agreeing with you, most music has a continuous bass line running in the background and sometimes, the bass line is moved to the front, but still, it's continuous, hence the benefit of having it boosted a bit for aesthetic purposes. But in the case of Home Theater, sound tracks are sound effect driven where even music has an intended purpose, beyond that of being simply music in that the purpose of the music is intended to "steer" the viewer's emotional response to that of the video content being viewed. The point, in the case of Home Theater playback, a subwoofer system is there to "replicate" the intent of the sound engineer/producer and is not intended to serve the purposes of the viewer.

(we don't get to climb into the control booth of a rock concert and take control of the sound board. we don't go to a club and tell the DJ how we want it played. we don't tell the club band how we want the music to sound)

In the case of Home Theater, in my opinion, once one starts taking liberties with the sound board, the intent of the sound engineer/producer go out the door so why bother with a sound engineer? Why not have everybody go into the control booth and tell the sound engineer/producer how they want the emotional aspect of a movie to be controlled. Why not include a sound board in the menu of every Blu-ray disk?

Atilla: "Rage," music video.

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