SpeakerPower Amp Connection - XLR to RCA... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 08-25-2013, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, since I've been reading a little on the thread that was started with someone getting a "pro" install and having sub issues, my question arose.

I currently have a Denon 4520 AVR with dual RCA sub-outs and am running twin JTR S1's using their XLR input - (since thats the only option). I noticed using this connection that the sub levels are very poor and require higher trim setting to gain more output. I am comparing this to my dual SVS SB13's that was connected prior. My setting are much higher in the AVR, to get the same output.

I guess my question is this, if I'm reading correctly, do I lose 6db with using this type of connection(XLR-RCA)? I just do not understand why this would be the case? I was almost wondering if there was an issue with my speakerpower amps, since the gain is maxed out to '0' on the plate.

Thanks for any insight!

Mike
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post #2 of 21 Old 08-25-2013, 11:34 AM
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I guess my question is this, if I'm reading correctly, do I lose 6db with using this type of connection(XLR-RCA)?

Yes you are. Denon 4520 does not have balanced pre outs for any channels and either you are using rca to xlr adaptor or rca to xlr cable. In either case the subs are getting unbalanced signals.

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post #3 of 21 Old 08-25-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Brave! I understand they are unbalanced, I just do not necessarily understand the "loss" going on here? Is there anyway of getting my DB's back, besides jacking up the trim levels?

So, why would there be a loss with my current (unbalanced connection) and not with a direct RCA connection as before (also unbalanced). I guess I need it in more of "layman's terms"...
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post #4 of 21 Old 08-25-2013, 12:24 PM
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So, why would there be a loss with my current (unbalanced connection) and not with a direct RCA connection as before (also unbalanced). I guess I need it in more of "layman's terms"...

That's because the potential impedance difference between both xlr ends is same across the entire length of the cable. In your case, it is different as you are terminating unbalanced signal to balanced terminal. Your sub is expecting a balanced input and an rca-xlr adaptor or rca-xlr cable does not convert unbalanced signal to a balanced one.

Those subs that have rca input (unbalanced) expect a fraction of a volt to perform to their optimum level. I guess for now, your best bet is to feed a strong signal from your AVR to get good bass out of S1. Alternative is a bump box that converts unbalanced signal to balanced e.g. Art CleanBox Pro.
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post #5 of 21 Old 08-25-2013, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again, Brave! I finally get it... Looks like I might try the CleanBox route. Just wish the SpeakerPower amp came with an RCA connection or both.
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post #6 of 21 Old 08-25-2013, 12:56 PM
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A lot of receivers can put out enough voltage to drive pro equipment so its just a matter of bumping up the sub level trim and gain on the plate amp. If you can max out the trim and gain, and the volume is still low then you'll need a box to bump up the voltage.

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post #7 of 21 Old 08-25-2013, 01:10 PM
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A lot of receivers can put out enough voltage to drive pro equipment so its just a matter of bumping up the sub level trim and gain on the plate amp.

That's only in the case if the gain knob on the S1 amp functions like the ones on the pro amps (attenuators) i.e. if it alters sensitivity to input signal.

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post #8 of 21 Old 09-05-2013, 03:44 PM
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Braveheart is correct. There is no problem running a higher output trim level on a Denon receiver. Mine had plenty of output capability to run the amp to full output and beyond. You are not losing anything, and you are gaining better signal to noise by running a hotter signal between the preamp and amp.
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post #9 of 21 Old 09-05-2013, 11:41 PM
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Does increasing the trim output from the receiver put more stress on the receiver. Like heat or more distortion?
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post #10 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 12:01 AM
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Does increasing the trim output from the receiver put more stress on the receiver. Like heat or more distortion?

It will put more load on the subwoofer, not the receiver.

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post #11 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

It will put more load on the subwoofer, not the receiver.

Receiver can clip and it differs between them.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1459739/how-to-determine-your-receivers-maximum-lfe-output-for-gain-structuring
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post #12 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 03:17 AM
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Luke is right, I missed that point. Anything greater than 105dB (0dBFS) gets clipped in the AVR when you bump the sub trim level way up; but still there won't be any load on avr as you are still at the pre-amp stage.

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post #13 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Good point, Luke. I wonder how high I can turn up the gain in my AVR before I am clipping the signal? Good talk here...
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post #14 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 10:59 AM
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post #15 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 12:00 PM
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Good point, Luke. I wonder how high I can turn up the gain in my AVR before I am clipping the signal? Good talk here...

You can read the info in the link. It's very good info by Wayne. I used the same to set the gain structure and max clean output of my avr when I integrated pro amp to drive diy sub. You should have a multimeter for this exercise.

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post #16 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

Good point, Luke. I wonder how high I can turn up the gain in my AVR before I am clipping the signal? Good talk here...

I am not real sure. I have been around quite a few seaton's and jtr's, and never needed to run gains maxed out. I have been around a couple s2's off a denon 4311 and in no way would the gains on the amps need to be at max for a negative sub out number, not even close. I am kind of baffled with your results and have not seen this issue before on avs with these amps. Maybe check in the subm thread to see if anyone had an issue in the past, as they use the same 2400 amp?
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post #17 of 21 Old 09-06-2013, 02:32 PM
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Sorry for asking this stupid question but are you sure you have the sub dial maxed out. I've seen guys on the Submersive thread think that the infinity sign was the "0" on the amp and its actually the lowest setting on the amp. The infinity symbol is the lowest setting and the 0 is the loudest. Again, I apologize if this is coming across rude and I don't mean it to be I just seen others do the same. Have you tried turning the sub dial and see if the output increases.
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post #18 of 21 Old 09-12-2013, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Bunga- Yes, I did play with the gain on the amp, my current setting is at "0". For HT, my sub trim levels are in the negatives with plenty of output. No issues here. I was merely making an initial statement, that my sub trim levels are much higher now than before, using an XLR to RCA setup.

I can actually crank up the sub trim in the AVR and the S1's get ridiculous loud, but barely seem to be breaking a sweat. I guess they just scare the crap out of me compared to my former SBU's. wink.gif
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post #19 of 21 Old 09-12-2013, 04:31 AM
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Thanks for the info guys, i am learning more and more everyday.
Is there any really benefit using Art CleanBox Pro as to just bumping up the sub level trim on the receiver?
The reason i ask is because i was going to purchase the 16AWG XLR Male to RCA Male Cable for the Orbit Shifter and
connect it to my receiver or should i buy Art CleanBox Pro and connect them that way? Thanks
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post #20 of 21 Old 09-12-2013, 09:05 PM
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Is there any really benefit using Art CleanBox Pro as to just bumping up the sub level trim on the receiver?
The reason i ask is because i was going to purchase the 16AWG XLR Male to RCA Male Cable for the Orbit Shifter and
connect it to my receiver or should i buy Art CleanBox Pro and connect them that way? Thanks

There is a benefit of using Art CleanBox Pro if pre signal is not strong enough to drive the next unit further down the sound chain whatever that may be. But current AVRs have enough pre-out voltage to drive almost any device into clipping. Simply buy XLR Male to RCA Male cable and hook up your OS.

One of the problems with any signal booster is that if there exists any inherent noise in the input signal; that is also amplified and played back by the sub, which is very annoying.

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The best EQ is no EQ ...

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post #21 of 21 Old 09-13-2013, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

There is a benefit of using Art CleanBox Pro if pre signal is not strong enough to drive the next unit further down the sound chain whatever that may be. But current AVRs have enough pre-out voltage to drive almost any device into clipping. Simply buy XLR Male to RCA Male cable and hook up your OS.

One of the problems with any signal booster is that if there exists any inherent noise in the input signal; that is also amplified and played back by the sub, which is very annoying.

Thanks again braveheart123 for the info.
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