On the fence.... (2) SVS PB12-NSD VS (2) PSA XS15 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 03:20 AM - Thread Starter
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You guys can argue back and forth as you wish. I visit here as I like to hear the different viewpoints. I monitored this forum for a few years before I even signed up, and rarely post unless I have a problem or need some advice.

HSU makes some excellent products. It it would fit and I could bring myself to spend that much, I would love to have a pair of USL-15s. That choice is already made as they are an inch too wide and two inches too deep.
The PSA is the only 15" sub that will fit under the tables unless someone knows of a 15" that is basically a 17" cube (including grill). I sent Beeman a pic of one of the tables, so he knows what issues I face fitting a sub underneath.

I am committed to the current placement, as I see this as the best option looks and sound wise. I'm open to other suggestions for a sub close to the output of the PSA, no larger than the PSA, and similar warranty and CS. Right now I am only seeing one other sub in the running and that is the SVS SB12. Same warranty and nobody can complain about the quality (and cheaper than the PSA as well). I don't think anyone can argue that the output is anywhere close to the same though.

I have a good month to llok for other options as Tom V. has told me there won't be any XS-15s in stock until late September. He has already impressed me with his quick responses to my emails, so that's another point in PSAs favor.
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post #92 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 03:39 AM
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HSU makes some excellent products. It it would fit and I could bring myself to spend that much, I would love to have a pair of USL-15s. That choice is already made as they are an inch too wide and two inches too deep.
The PSA is the only 15" sub that will fit under the tables unless someone knows of a 15" that is basically a 17" cube (including grill). I sent Beeman a pic of one of the tables, so he knows what issues I face fitting a sub underneath.


That’s odd.. I just took for granted the ULS was smaller than the PSA.. go figure! Yip! I just checked, not that I didn’t believe you.

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post #93 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Steve:

Yes, I am amazed that the PSA will fit (and just barely). If I have screwed up and not measured right, then even the PSA won't fit as I estimate I only have 1/2" clearance in depth, width, and height. Looks like a lot of 12" inch subs would not fit either. I currently have a BIC F12 sitting under one of them (to test the wireless adapter, and not a lot of wiggle room on that one either. The biggest problem is the legs on the tables are about 4-5" wide and curve inward at the bottom.
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post #94 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 07:12 AM
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^^^^ Well it’s good you found a good solution considering your tolerances. To bad about the month waiting time but don’t figure you to settle on something less.

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post #95 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I got up with Tom V. via email and he said that they may have one coming back on a trade up. As long as there is nothing wrong with it, I may grab that one and then get a second when they come back in stock. I'm sure I want two of them, but putting one close to the listening area for right now should do.

The only other one that I was considering was the SVS SB12-NSD, and I don't think I would be happy with a smaller output sub(s)
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post #96 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I'm sorry derrickdj1, but 119db at 10hz is impossible for that size room and that sub. You must have done something incorrectly.

This is not a put down, but more of a matter of physics. Those subs are simply not capable of that output for that room. Mktheater had 4 18.2s in a 2000 cubic foot room and maxed out at around 120db @ 10hz. This is 4 times the number of drivers you have in less that 1/3 of a room that has 4 concrete boundaries. 

Please prove me wrong by posting your graphs, room layout, and how you measured that.

I don't know about anyone else and what they can get in their room. But, I have ran the test tones several times and those are the numbers that I am getting. Count room gain of 12-15 db and both subs are corner loaded so another 6-9 db and the drivers face the wall to keep them loaded. Remember , I said the avr was at reference level . The output at 70 Hz was 123 db which is consistent with cea numbers for the VS 18.1 which would be around 128 db. The number I have been corrected for distance and the Radio Shack adjustment. The output of these sub can change due to which amp it is used with. That is one of the nice things about passive subs.

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post #97 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I don't know about anyone else and what they can get in their room. But, I have ran the test tones several times and those are the numbers that I am getting. Count room gain of 12-15 db and both subs are corner loaded so another 6-9 db and the drivers face the wall to keep them loaded. Remember , I said the avr was at reference level . The output at 70 Hz was 123 db which is consistent with cea numbers for the VS 18.1 which would be around 128 db. The number I have been corrected for distance and the Radio Shack adjustment. The output of these sub can change due to which amp it is used with. That is one of the nice things about passive subs.
Like I said, something is wrong with the way you're doing it or the tools you are using. That output for those Subs in that size room at that freq (120db@10hz) is simply not possible.
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post #98 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Like I said, something is wrong with the way you're doing it or the tools you are using. That output for those Subs in that size room at that freq (120db@10hz) is simply not possible.

Hey just a thought...if you use the chase vs 18.1 si of 1.5 couldnt you use your ulf calculator to get an idea of what his actual performance would be compare to others?

dual vs18.1 =3

6000 / 3 = ulf score of 2000 @ 16hz. I believe derrick has the ss version which would have 6db less around the vs port tune.
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post #99 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 08:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

That is one of the nice things about passive subs.

Does "passive sub" qualify as an oxymoron?

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post #100 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

That output for those Subs in that size room at that freq (120db@10hz) is simply not possible.
In fact, it is possible. It would require corner loading, and a smaller, very tight room, but it could happen. Don't underestimate the effect of cabin gain. The chart on this JBL data sheet shows the difference with a sealed sub in a car versus outside of it:

http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/jbl/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/BoxesandParameters/GTO1014TD.pdf

Of course you're not going to get +20dB of cabin gain in a room, but 12dB at 10Hz is well within the realm of possibility.

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post #101 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Like I said, something is wrong with the way you're doing it or the tools you are using. That output for those Subs in that size room at that freq (120db@10hz) is simply not possible.

data-bass.com shows that the VS18.1 only hits 101.4dB at 16hz, so two would be what 105dB-106dB and I can't see him getting that much room gain in such a big room.

I would have to agree with you dominguez1, I don't see how his measurements can be correct.

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post #102 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

data-bass.com shows that the VS18.1 only hits 101.4dB at 16hz,
Is that corner loaded?

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post #103 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

In fact, it is possible. It would require corner loading, and a smaller, very tight room, but it could happen. Don't underestimate the effect of cabin gain. The chart on this JBL data sheet shows the difference with a sealed sub in a car versus outside of it:

http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/jbl/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/BoxesandParameters/GTO1014TD.pdf

Of course you're not going to get +20dB of cabin gain in a room, but 12dB at 10Hz is well within the realm of possibility.
His room is 6500 cubes. Far from small and tight.
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post #104 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I use two Chase SS 18.1 subs in a 6,500+ cft. space and they are monsters for the price. I recently ran some Real Traps test tone and at reference level I could hit 119 db at 10 Hz which was 14 ft from the subs. THX requires a sub to hit 115 db between around 30-60 db . This was with no EQ or running the subs hot. Chase is not mentioned as much as some of the other brands and for me it is the diamond in the rough.

Someone shared parameters for the the SS 18.1 driver with me:

Re: 6.963 Ohms
Fs: 21.53 Hz
Qts: 0.324
Qes: 0.355
Qms: 3.707
Le: 3.461 mH
Mms: 369.4 g
Vas: 19.78 Cu Ft
SPL: 93.86 1W/1m
BL: 31.31 N/A
Cms: 0.15 mm/N
Sd: 0.1642 m^2
v(b) is ~3.4cf per driver

I'm definitely a novice at this. But when I ran those parameters for dimensions of the CHT 18.1 (guessing the interior volume), from what I remember, didn't seem possible for those drivers to achieve that kind of volume at 10hz, not matter how much corner loading and room gain you have. Could be the numbers are no accurate, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could run them.

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post #105 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Is that corner loaded?

Is it possible to gain 15dB from corner loading subs in a 6500 cubic/ft room?

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post #106 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Is that corner loaded?

The subs tested on data-bass are measured out in an open field.

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post #107 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

data-bass.com shows that the VS18.1 only hits 101.4dB at 16hz, so two would be what 105dB-106dB and I can't see him getting that much room gain in such a big room.

I would have to agree with you dominguez1, I don't see how his measurements can be correct.

I talked with craig at chase awhile back. the ss18.1 is -6db down from the vs18.1 @ 20hz...so it would actually be more like 95-96db @ 16hz and 101-102db with a pair co located. In room corner loaded I would suspect 110-112db @ 16hz at the LP.
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post #108 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

The subs tested on data-bass are measured out in an open field.
Add 6dB for two subs, add 8-10dB for in a room corner, add at 8-10dB for cabin gain at 10Hz. Those are safe numbers, assuming the room isn't huge.

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post #109 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I talked with craig at chase awhile back. the ss18.1 is -6db down from the vs18.1 @ 20hz...so it would actually be more like 95-96db @ 16hz and 101-102db with a pair co located. In room corner loaded I would suspect 110-112db @ 16hz at the LP.

It all depends on what amp was used to get the numbers, The Dayton amp is 500/900 watts, Sub 1 is 600/1200 watts, I use 1520/3000 watts at 8/4 ohms. I like the fact that I can pick the amp for my subs. I have never had a problem with to little bass in this room. But, back to the topic so we don't derail the thread. My apologies to the OP for stirring up another topic. I posted my numbers on the Chase web site for the SS 18.1's with the Behringer amp. I double checked my measurements again since the last post and I stand by the numbers.

Take the number of 95 at 1meter or 2 and add a second sub, equals 98, then add 2 subs corner loaded equals around 107 and now add room gain of 12-15 db equals approximately 119 db. Even if you take away 5-6 db, the numbers are pretty good at 10 Hz. The Chase sub will get most people flat to 15 Hz and some in the single digits.

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post #110 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

It all depends on what amp was used to get the numbers, The Dayton amp is 500/900 watts, Sub 1 is 600/1200 watts, I use 1520/3000 watts at 8/4 ohms. I like the fact that I can pick the amp for my subs. I have never had a problem with to little bass in this room. But, back to the topic so we don't derail the thread. My apologies to the OP for stirring up another topic. I posted my numbers on the Chase web site for the SS 18.1's with the Behringer amp. I double checked my measurements again since the last post and I stand by the numbers.

Take the number of 95 at 1meter or 2 and add a second sub, equals 98, then add 2 subs corner loaded equals around 107 and now add room gain of 12-15 db equals approximately 119 db. Even if you take away 5-6 db, the numbers are pretty good at 10 Hz. The Chase sub will get most people flat to 15 Hz and some in the single digits.

adding 12-15db for room gain is incorrect..add about 6db tops from the 2m rms numbers. the amp used does not matter. look at data-bass passive numbers compared to the sub 1 numbers not any difference at 16hz. not going to argue about it...actually didnt even think about it until dominguez brought it up. I think you have a good set of subs but 119db at 10hz is a stretch.
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post #111 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Add 6dB for two subs, add 8-10dB for in a room corner, add at 8-10dB for cabin gain at 10Hz. Those are safe numbers, assuming the room isn't huge.

the room is 6500^3...its been mentioned several times.
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post #112 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 01:08 PM
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The VS 18.1 is a vented sub that uses a HPF. My meter read 93 db at 14 ft. Plus radio shack correct of 20 db at 10 Hz equals 113. Correction for distance of 9 db gives 122 db. so, 119 db is within the range. I was incorrect on adding mentioning room gain and corner loading which is already include in the number.smile.gif

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post #113 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The VS 18.1 is a vented sub that uses a HPF. My meter read 93 db at 14 ft. Plus radio shack correct of 20 db at 10 Hz equals 113. Correction for distance of 9 db gives 122 db. so, 119 db is within the range. I was incorrect on adding mentioning room gain and corner loading which is already include in the number.smile.gif

The VS18 still has 6db more output around the port tune and its rated @ 115db @ 20hz 1m peak cea 2010.

You dont add 9 for a LP measurement...here is the deal Derrick, Go buy a Ummik-1 mic and download rew. Take a max spl sweep and post the graph. If you break 119db at 10hz from the LP I will pay for the Mic via paypal. Sound like a deal?
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post #114 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The VS 18.1 is a vented sub that uses a HPF. My meter read 93 db at 14 ft. Plus radio shack correct of 20 db at 10 Hz equals 113. Correction for distance of 9 db gives 122 db. so, 119 db is within the range. I was incorrect on adding mentioning room gain and corner loading which is already include in the number.smile.gif
This is your problem then. Your radio shack meter is probably accurate and does not need the adjustment. Mine is pretty accurate as well. See link below and scroll down to Microphone Accuracy.

http://www.realtraps.com/art_spl.htm

Also, why are you adding 9 for distance? You are taking listening position measurements. No adjustment necessary.

Sounds like your 10hz output is more like 93 at 10hz for you main lp. This makes much more sense.
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post #115 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The VS18 still has 6db more output around the port tune and its rated @ 115db @ 20hz 1m peak cea 2010.

You dont add 9 for a LP measurement...here is the deal Derrick, Go buy a Ummik-1 mic and download rew. Take a max spl sweep and post the graph. If you break 119db at 10hz from the LP I will pay for the Mic via paypal. Sound like a deal?

That's a hell of an offer, do you have any kind of offer like that for me and my XS30's?...lol smile.gif

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post #116 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 06:32 PM
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That's a hell of an offer, do you have any kind of offer like that for me and my XS30's?...lol smile.gif

PSA user’s aren’t included. Only Chase and DIY. smile.gif

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post #117 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 07:51 PM
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PSA user’s aren’t included. Only Chase and DIY. smile.gif

Well that's blows!....LOL

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post #118 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

the room is 6500^3...its been mentioned several times.
I didn't wade through the entire thread, but room volume is moot in any case. Cabin gain is a matter of the longest room dimension. Where that's 1/2 wavelength is where cabin gain starts, at a rate of 12dB/octave in a tight room. Thus if the longest room dimension is 30 feet, for instance, cabin gain begins at 19Hz, so you might get 10dB at 10Hz. If it's 15 feet cabin gain starts at 38Hz, so a small room can really get high SPL at the lower depths. Cabin gain is the reason for the silly high numbers in auto sound SPL competitions, OTOH in a typical real theater cabin gain doesn't occur, and that's why they don't even try to get below 30Hz.

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post #119 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I talked with craig at chase awhile back. the ss18.1 is -6db down from the vs18.1 @ 20hz...so it would actually be more like 95-96db @ 16hz and 101-102db with a pair co located. In room corner loaded I would suspect 110-112db @ 16hz at the LP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

. . . If you break 119db at 10hz from the LP I will pay for the Mic via paypal. Sound like a deal?

Craig says a lot of things LOL

Craig has also claimed measurements that the SS 18.1s can reach 92 db with the Dayton amp at 12.5hz, while 116 db at 80hz. Yet here are measurements he supposedly made out doors with the sub:



Little bit of discrepancy, eh? I'm guessing his first claim includes some room gain for the SS 18.1.

Here are some other closed mic measurements of the CS 18.1 that someone else made, seems the same driver as the SS 18.1 and similar enclosure:

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75

That's pretty close to what I saw when I modeled the CHT driver. I don't remember what the max output looked like, but it didn't seem anywhere high enough to hit 119db at 10hz, even with two subs and a lot of room gain.

So I think you are probably making a fairly safe bet with derrickdj1 unless he's got his two subs in a walk-in closet biggrin.gif

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post #120 of 120 Old 08-29-2013, 10:15 PM
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OTOH in a typical real theater cabin gain doesn't occur, and that's why they don't even try to get below 30Hz.

Interesting, I did not know that.
Quote:
Craig says a lot of things LOL

Who Craig? biggrin.gif

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