On the fence.... (2) SVS PB12-NSD VS (2) PSA XS15 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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What concerns me the most is the forward firing VS downfiring. My house is concrete slab and berber carpet where the subs will go. It's also an open floor plan with the living room opening into the kitchen, front foyer and dining room (probably about 4000-5000 cubic feet.)

Should I expect any difference in the sound on a downfiring sub VS a forward firing? I'm leaning more toward the XS15 rather than the XV15 due to the slightly smaller form factor, but not entirely counting out the XV15.

Anybody audtioned both of these subs in their room?

I currently have a single Epik Empire, but looking to replace with two subs for a more even bass response.
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post #2 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

What concerns me the most is the forward firing VS downfiring.
Downfiring will be cleaner, as that driver position acoustically filters above bandwidth harmonics created by the movement of the cone as well as above bandwidth content not effectively filtered out by the crossover. Within the actual sub woofer passband there's no difference, both have omni-directional output.

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post #3 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 10:59 AM
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There are a few here that have had both the pb12nsd and the xv15, they reported that the xv15 was a significant upgrade. With the size of room you have I would get the xv15 over the xs15.
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post #4 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. Thanks for the super quick response Bill. Want to weigh on ported VS sealed in an open space? I understand that the playing field is not exactly level as I'm comparing a 12" ported sub to a 15" sealed.

Edit: Just saw the post form Basshead. Yeah, I've been throwing that idea around as well.
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post #5 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Wow. Thanks for the super quick response Bill. Want to weigh on ported VS sealed in an open space? I understand that the playing field is not exactly level as I'm comparing a 12" ported sub to a 15" sealed.

Edit: Just saw the post form Basshead. Yeah, I've been throwing that idea around as well.

Thes size difference is not that big of deal xs & xv and you would be gaining 4db between 15-30hz.

Check out data-bass.com/systems to compare the empire vs xv15.
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post #6 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Where I am putting them height is a bit of a factor, but no super big deal.


From what I am seeing on the link you provided the numbers between 16HZ-25HZ are very close between the PSA XV15 and the Empire.
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post #7 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 12:39 PM
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None of these subs are going to give you the upper bass output of the Empire. But you might check out the Dayton dual driver kit. It is like the Empire but the drivers are considerably better for deeper frequencies. It probably won't equal the upper bass output of the empire, but it will almost certainly offer you a flatter frequency response, and also cleaner deep bass since it's drivers will be a lot less stressed down there then the Empires' are. It is really easy to assemble, all you need is a screwdriver, some glue, and an hour of time. I think a pair of those would be a lot better then a pair of the PB12 and XV15, although a bit more expensive. Next to that, I would go for a pair of VTF3 mk4. You get big output and tight sound quality, and you can shape the FR to your liking.
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post #8 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 12:54 PM
 
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How much room do you have to place your subwoofer in? For the price of two subwoofers, have you considered a dual driver XS30 (front/rearing firing) or a XV30f (front firing) with an eye on a complimentary smaller sub (XS15 or a XV15) in the near future?

With that much volume to fill, one needs to get the most output they can pack into a room.

Creeping up and buying subwoofers, one at a time, as finances allows, allows one to afford what one needs, to fill one's room with lot's of quality bass.

(subwoofers are a journey, not a destination)

If wanting deep, powerful bass in a room that large, buy a single, dual driver, XS30 for your initial subwoofer and add two XS15's, one at a time, as time and finances allows.

(gives one something to look forward to growing into)

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post #9 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Where the Empire is sitting currently, (along the left wall) size is not an issue. I would like to place dual subs between my mains on either side of the TV. That wall is only about 10' as it opens on the left to the kitchen and on the right to the foyer and dining room.

I had looked at the HSU VTF3-MK4 but was concerned that the side firing might be an issue as not much space available on the left and right side on the TV.

As soon as I can, I'll post a pic as it is difficult to explain the space restrictions here. I appreciate all of the suggestions!

I had looked at the VX30, but not a good WAF on that one...biggrin.gif
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post #10 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

None of these subs are going to give you the upper bass output of the Empire. But you might check out the Dayton dual driver kit. It is like the Empire but the drivers are considerably better for deeper frequencies. It probably won't equal the upper bass output of the empire, but it will almost certainly offer you a flatter frequency response, and also cleaner deep bass since it's drivers will be a lot less stressed down there then the Empires' are. It is really easy to assemble, all you need is a screwdriver, some glue, and an hour of time. I think a pair of those would be a lot better then a pair of the PB12 and XV15, although a bit more expensive. Next to that, I would go for a pair of VTF3 mk4. You get big output and tight sound quality, and you can shape the FR to your liking.

dual xv15's would give him more 16-30hz output and match the empires upper bass....the op said he wants dual subs to smooth the response, he didnt say he wanted more upper bass. You think the dayton would be better but you do not know for sure...
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post #11 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 02:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

I would like to place dual subs between my mains on either side of the TV.

Just saying, symmetrically placing subwoofers to satisfy one's sense of aesthetics is not a good plan for expecting to get the best out of a subwoofer sound reproduction system.

In my opinion, the best thing to do is measure the subwoofer's placement output and graph how it's output interacts with your room's acoustics.
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post #12 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Where the Empire is sitting currently, (along the left wall) size is not an issue. I would like to place dual subs between my mains on either side of the TV. That wall is only about 10' as it opens on the left to the kitchen and on the right to the foyer and dining room.

I had looked at the HSU VTF3-MK4 but was concerned that the side firing might be an issue as not much space available on the left and right side on the TV.

The VTF3s would probably need some room to move air, but they wouldn't need a lot. I think around 3" would be sufficient. By the way, what are you going to do with the Empire? It has terrific mid and upper bass performance. You might think about using it as a mid bass module. Have it be close to your listening position, and high pass filter it at around 40 to 50 Hz, and low pass your newer subs below that point. That could end up gaining you a lot of very high quality headroom. It's worth trying anyway. Look at how Hsu advises their MBM-12 to be setup for an example of that.
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dual xv15's would give him more 16-30hz output and match the empires upper bass....the op said he wants dual subs to smooth the response, he didnt say he wanted more upper bass. You think the dayton would be better but you do not know for sure...

I think the dayton dual driver kit would outperform the XV15 in every respect except sheer output around the port's tuning point. But, I think it would play those tuning point frequencies with less distortion per SPL. Above and below the tuning point it will doubtlessly outperform the XV15. You are pitting two very good drivers against one iffy driver. Basshead, I know you love your PSA subs, and you probably don't want to admit this, but I think even you, after calmly assessing the advantages and disadvantages of each design, would go for the Dayton dual driver over the XV15 if you had to do it all over again. If I could, I would trade my VTF3 and outlaw subs for Dayton kits, and that's not to say the Hsu and Outlaws aren't great subs, they are.
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post #13 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Shady:

I had thought about just leaving the Empire where it is, but did not know how well I could expect to blend in two more subs (even two of the same)

Beeman:

Absolutely agree but my placement choices are limited due to the layout of the room. The Empire is on the left wall, there is no right wall, and the back wall I could only use if I wanted to put the subs under the end tables (they would have to be smaller than anything suggested in this thread). The only place left is the wall with the mains and the TV and that isn't even a complete wall (it's only 10' wide)

Edit: I may just be wasting everyones time here. I did some quick measurements and I was WAY off on the cubic feet. More like about 6000 than 4000-5000.
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post #14 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 04:16 PM
 
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It reads like aesthetics is kicking your butt. I do understand and fully hate it when that happens.

Working with you, in my opinion, not having seen your room, going off of what you posted in your above, on the back wall, two SB12-NSD's under the end tables (near-field placement) and the Epik, Empire on the left wall would be the best option. And then, to the best of your ability, use REW to fine tune any AVR provided, auto-EQ system you might have.

(personally, I think the SB12-NSD's have something special going on)

Quote:
Edit: I may just be wasting everyones time here. I did some quick measurements and I was WAY off on the cubic feet. More like about 6000-7000 than 4000-5000.

(with the above addendum, it reads like you're back to finding a way to slide a PSA, XS30 into the room.)

It's beginning to read as if you're going have to go big or do without. What are your subwoofer expectations? Are you wanting to impress the neighbors, three doors down or are you simply wanting some decent levels with some headroom?

If you go with a pair of SB12-NSD, set under the end tables (near-field placement) with the Empire on the left wall, you really should get what you're wanting. If you're wanting to impress friends, buddies and the neighbors down the street, you're going need a lot more.

(I'm retooling my thinking as forums such as AVS will give one skewed values)



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post #15 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 04:18 PM
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Poppa, the Empire is a bit different than most subs, it might have a harder time blending in. It has very good mid bass performance and terrific upper bass performance, but its drivers and designs isn't great for deep bass performance, from what I understand. It can do it, but it uses an EQ boost to do so, and its lower excursion drivers probably are outside of their comfort zone in that respect. If you are going to try to mix other subs with it, I would put a high pass filter on it so it is not tasked by the receiver to try to keep up with other subs down low.
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post #16 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 04:31 PM
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I would think the Empire would be easier to blend due to the mid bass performance. Also for the size room of the OP, the added mid bass slam will have a greater impact than just low frequency extension. The bass boost for a seal sub is based on design and is common for sealed and vented sub. Most plate amps on subs have a built-in bass boost for the lowest frequencies. The Empire is no slouch and the move may not be a wow factor, at best, a lateral move. I favor keeping the Empire if it was not for some of the amp problems. Also the Empire can get by with not as stout a driver due to it's dual oppose design.

From looking at the cea data the bass in the 16-30 is about equal between the Empire and PSA. Sealed subs work well in large rooms due to the slow roll-off.

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post #17 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Beeman:

The living room, kitchen, dining room and front foyer are basically one big room as they are wide open to each other. While I can subtract a little for two small closets in the living room, and the utility room, I'm still coming up with about 6100 cubic foot taking into account that the living room/kitchen has vaulted ceilings. The house was built in 2001 and is typical of open floor plan designs.

Shady: Depending on what I end up with , I might want to get up with you later on how to add a filter.
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post #18 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I would think the Empire would be easier to blend due to the mid bass performance. Also for the size room of the OP, the added mid bass slam will have a greater impact than just low frequency extension. The bass boost for a seal sub is based on design and is common for sealed and vented sub. Most plate amps on subs have a built-in bass boost for the lowest frequencies. The Empire is no slouch and the move may not be a wow factor, at best, a lateral move. I favor keeping the Empire if it was not for some of the amp problems. Also the Empire can get by with not as stout a driver due to it's dual oppose design.

The Empire's drivers don't look bad, they look like light, higher Q drivers of the kind which excel at upper bass. Another advantage of high passing the empire is that it might last longer since it wouldn't be pushed into what would be a mechanically challenging task for it (low frequencies). Also, by high passing it, you restrict it's amplifier bandwidth to upper frequencies, this will give you more amplifier headroom for that range than if it had to tackle the whole bass range.
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post #19 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 04:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Beeman:

The living room, kitchen, dining room and front foyer are basically one big room as they are wide open to each other. While I can subtract a little for two small closets in the living room, and the utility room, I'm still coming up with about 6100 cubic foot taking into account that the living room/kitchen has vaulted ceilings. The house was built in 2001 and is typical of open floor plan designs.

Are you familiar with "near-field" placement? In open environments such as your situation, placing two SB12-NSD's near-field, should give you what you want and in the process, three doors away, not blow your neighbors out of the water.
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post #20 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 04:55 PM
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For that size room, I wouldn't go seal because of little room gain. So many are complaining about not enough low end with a seal sub in an open space. You need multiple seal (4) to get good pressurizations in large or open space.
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post #21 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PoppaC View Post

Shady: Depending on what I end up with , I might want to get up with you later on how to add a filter.

Here are some simple high pass filters, f-mod inline filters, although their filter change with different impedance, so it might not work exactly as advertised with your gear. If you don't want to screw around, check this Hsu filter out, it's more expensive, but there isn't any guesswork involved.
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post #22 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I assume you mean fairly close to the listener?
The only place close would be on either side of the sofa where the end tables are. The only sub that would fit under the tables would be something not much larger than the BIC F-12 (I have one of those in another room) or possibly a ULS-15 or an SB-12. Max size would be 18X18X18.

Don't really think I have any placement options other than the front wall unless I want to get rid of the Empire and buy a Triax and put it where the Empire is. I may end up doing that, but want to see some early reviews first before dropping 3K.

Datranz: My thoughts exactly on the sealed. I was first considering dual ULS-15s, but dropped that idea.

Once again, thanks for all of the responses. Unfortunately, I now have more possible options than when I started biggrin.gif
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post #23 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 05:24 PM
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You really can't go wrong with dual XV15, dual PB12-NSD, or dual VTF-3 MK4.
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post #24 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 05:28 PM
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Come down off the fence and give Tom at PSA a call and order up a pair of those XV-15's. I had a pair and they were great little subs.
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post #25 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 05:30 PM
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Even if you were considering 4 ULS15s, I don't think that would provide the low frequency extension you might want in a room that size. You would probably need something like 4 submersives. And honestly I don't think that would get you that low in 6000+ cubic feet.. My room is also about 6100 cubic feet. I think a couple of high output ported subs would be your best bet. Or some powerful DIY setup.
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post #26 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 05:41 PM
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You will want to know what kind of response you can expect from your intended placement up front with the TV. I would take a measurement of the Empire at its present position, move it up to both locations where your future placements are, and take measurements at those locations as well. This will let you know how that position could shape the response of other subs you place there. I wouldn't simply replace your Empire with a more powerful sub unless you know it has a good response where it's at.

Another good sub that would fit under the end tables: the Dayton titanic 4 kit. Like the dayton dual woofer kit, a little bit of assembly is required, but it is using a very good driver, one of Dayton's best (the driver alone is $190!), and I am sure it would walk all over the SVS SB12. ULS-15s would be killer as well, but pretty expensive. I am using a ULS dual drive in near-field at the moment, it is terrific, but my system is very different than yours.

If you can, you might just think about replacing your end tables with subs altogether. The VTF3 and Dayton dual drive kit both have perfect measurements for end tables. I have VTF3s as endtables in my home theater system with the drivers facing inward toward the listening position. Its a great way to feel the bass as well as hear it. An advantage about end table placement is that you don't have to drive the subs nearly as hard to achieve the same loudness at your listening position. This means that per SPL, you end with with cleaner bass. Since the subs don't have to work as hard, they will also last longer to, so you get a boost in reliability. Their sound is also less influenced by your room as well, so you won't need as much EQ to get a great response.
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post #27 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 06:39 PM
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2 subM is more than capable in that room. I had 1 in my >12,000cu room for demo and it was just enough.
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post #28 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The VTF3s would probably need some room to move air, but they wouldn't need a lot. I think around 3" would be sufficient. By the way, what are you going to do with the Empire? It has terrific mid and upper bass performance. You might think about using it as a mid bass module. Have it be close to your listening position, and high pass filter it at around 40 to 50 Hz, and low pass your newer subs below that point. That could end up gaining you a lot of very high quality headroom. It's worth trying anyway. Look at how Hsu advises their MBM-12 to be setup for an example of that.
I think the dayton dual driver kit would outperform the XV15 in every respect except sheer output around the port's tuning point. But, I think it would play those tuning point frequencies with less distortion per SPL. Above and below the tuning point it will doubtlessly outperform the XV15. You are pitting two very good drivers against one iffy driver. Basshead, I know you love your PSA subs, and you probably don't want to admit this, but I think even you, after calmly assessing the advantages and disadvantages of each design, would go for the Dayton dual driver over the XV15 if you had to do it all over again. If I could, I would trade my VTF3 and outlaw subs for Dayton kits, and that's not to say the Hsu and Outlaws aren't great subs, they are.

No I wouldnt...plain and simple. If I was not happy I would buy something else. You can rag on thd levels all day but the xv15 does a great job. THE ****ING DRIVER IS NOT IFFY...and no I wouldnt trade them for anything Dayton, so dont try and put words in my mouth. You seem to struggle with the fact that the low order thd does not mean the sub will sound bad. It all depends on the sub. Why is it in any thread where somebody asks about a PSA sub, you try and push them towards something else. I simply answered the op's question, you completely derailed the thread. If the op wanted Dayton or HSU he would of mentioned them. Clearly he found PSA, SVS, and Epik so there must be a reason he asked about those companies and not the other.
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post #29 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I would think the Empire would be easier to blend due to the mid bass performance. Also for the size room of the OP, the added mid bass slam will have a greater impact than just low frequency extension. The bass boost for a seal sub is based on design and is common for sealed and vented sub. Most plate amps on subs have a built-in bass boost for the lowest frequencies. The Empire is no slouch and the move may not be a wow factor, at best, a lateral move. I favor keeping the Empire if it was not for some of the amp problems. Also the Empire can get by with not as stout a driver due to it's dual oppose design.

From looking at the cea data the bass in the 16-30 is about equal between the Empire and PSA. Sealed subs work well in large rooms due to the slow roll-off.

Agreed.

What shadyj is suggesting is not necessary. Right now PoppaC is already running the Empire. Unless it's getting distressed now at the low end, or he moves it to a spot where it has to work a lot harder, having a sub with more linear response would make the Empire have to work less because there will be more ultra low bass as the listening position thanks to the extra sub(s).

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post #30 of 120 Old 08-27-2013, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

No I wouldnt...plain and simple. If I was not happy I would buy something else. You can rag on thd levels all day but the xv15 does a great job. THE ****ING DRIVER IS NOT IFFY...and no I wouldnt trade them for anything Dayton, so dont try and put words in my mouth. You seem to struggle with the fact that the low order thd does not mean the sub will sound bad. It all depends on the sub. Why is it in any thread where somebody asks about a PSA sub, you try and push them towards something else. I simply answered the op's question, you completely derailed the thread. If the op wanted Dayton or HSU he would of mentioned them. Clearly he found PSA, SVS, and Epik so there must be a reason he asked about those companies and not the other.

Lol, relax, I am just letting the OP know about other options. Most people don't know about the Dayton kits, unfortunately, and I'm sure the dual driver kit would destroy everything under $1k which isn't outright DIY. As for the XV driver, sorry, it just does not look very good. Do you really think anyone could sell a serious 15" sub for $800 shipped without taking any shortcuts? One look at the driver explains what they cut, and, sadly, that is just about the last place I would want to shortchange a subwoofer. At least the Traix driver doesn't look bad.
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