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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Your Home Theater ULF Score
Archaea's Avatar Archaea 10:12 PM 09-17-2013
:cool:You can see how he rated the orbit shifter at that same cached page, with higher max usable dB. I agree with everyone. It'd be nice to have some Cap measurements by Ricci.

Is anyone sure if the cap 2400 is using the same driver as the orbit shifter these days? The cap 4000 was for sure. Jeff confirmed it with me, but I'd not asked if he swapped drivers since the cabinet and power changed.

Mine is 20hz native, 15hz with port plug.

The 2400 is 17.5hz with no port plug option/recommendation.

I think he took those numbers down because they were sim numbers and he hadn't had the subs professionally measured. IIRC the numbers caused a bit of bench racer rage because they were sim numbers and some said could not be real world.

dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 10:15 PM 09-17-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Probably giving the Cap 2400 a little too much there. How about this, the GH hits 122 dBs with a tapped horn higher excursion 18. The OS would come at maybe 118-120 dBs at 20hz and that is 6 dBs more than the Cap 2400 at 20 hz. I would think that 114 dBs would be a good estimate at 20hz. Same goes for 17hz.

 

Looking at some of the other subs:

 

The DIY XXX Ported monster comes in at 116@20hz and so does the DTS-10 kit.

 

The PB-13 Ultra comes in at 110db. So I think you're probably right. 114db sounds a bit more accurate considering the OS output is more as well. 

 

Is it generally agreed upon that the GH would have more than the OS at 20hz?


basshead81's Avatar basshead81 10:17 PM 09-17-2013
114db @ 20hz sounds more realistic...that is still a ton of output for a single sub.
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 10:22 PM 09-17-2013
Well the GH uses the LMS-5400 or UXL which should be good for a couple dBs and it is a tapped horn so it uses both sides of the driver for more output. If the GH gets 122 dBs I would bet 120 dBs for the OS and Jeff mentions this. The cap has less output than the OS and I thought he mentioned 6 dBs or so. The DTS-10 and XXX ported both sacrifice output at 20hz for more output down low which the numbers indicate.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 10:03 AM 09-18-2013
My score for my 8 Acoustic Elegance IB15HT system in my 2153 cubic ft room is 384@10Hz.

However, I crossover to my GR-Research LS6 speakers at 40 Hz and use shallow slopes. Since the WinISD prediction for the IB15HT is 4.5 dB higher than what is being used, I also dropped 4.5 db from the prediction for the LS6 speakers at 31.5 Hz. If I go with 31.5 Hz output (112.7 dB x 2) for the LS6's in combination with my IB15HT''s, then my total score is 299. I don't reroute LFE bass to the mains, but since I use a phantom center, my mains are playing bass from the L, C, R for movies.
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 10:15 AM 09-18-2013
Still liking the LS6's? I wish you can hear these DR's in my room. I bet we could figure out what happened.

Anyways, I will list the scores of all my systems I have owned(DIY) at their wheelhouses!
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 10:31 AM 09-18-2013
4 CHT 18.2: 284 at 10hz

2 DTS-10's: 133 at 16hz

8 eD 190v2 sealed: 255 at 10hz

4 eD LLT's: 173 at 12.5 hz

12 eD 13av2: 247 at 10hz

8 IB318: 125 at 10hz
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 02:49 PM 09-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Still liking the LS6's?
I love them!
Quote:
I wish you can hear these DR's in my room. I bet we could figure out what happened.
The problem was that I was level matching using a frequency sweep rather than an RTA (Bill Fitzmaurice suggested I use an RTA). A frequency sweep is gated to eliminate reflected sounds, especially in the higher frequencies, and only captures a narrow slice of direct sound. The 120 degree dispersion and the hard walls to reflect sound combined for 9+ dB of output at higher frequencies than what a frequency sweep shows. It wasn't until I did a bunch of measurements with the Wedgehorn 6's I got from you that I started to understand what was going on.

As an experiment, Carp (or anyone else) could take his three Noesis speakers and set them close together up front with the side speakers pointing outward at an angle. Put a 2000 Hz High pass on the sides. Measure with the test signal going just to the middle speaker and take a measurement. Now send the same signal through all three and take another measurement. The measurements would probably be similar, but the output in the higher octaves with all three speakers would be much greater when playing actual content.
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 02:56 PM 09-18-2013
I see, makes perfect sense and if you ran them as dual stacked that would be 40 tweets running extremely hot! No wonder they made ears bleed.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 03:57 PM 09-18-2013
I went to a live outdoor concert in July and they were flying a line array on each side of the stage. At the back of the audience, each line array was covering an area several hundred feet wide. However, the sound was very similar across the width (as I made a trip to the porta potty). I realized that if I took a frequency response sweep in one spot, it wouldn't really capture the overall combined dB across the whole coverage area. Now imagine taking that output and cramming it into a small room with hard walls. Of course four DR250's have less output than two flying line arrays, but according to Bill's website, they can provide coverage to 400 people. It probably helps a lot that you have so much absorption.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 05:57 PM 09-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

My score for my 8 Acoustic Elegance IB15HT system in my 2153 cubic ft room is 384@10Hz.

However, I crossover to my GR-Research LS6 speakers at 40 Hz and use shallow slopes. Since the WinISD prediction for the IB15HT is 4.5 dB higher than what is being used, I also dropped 4.5 db from the prediction for the LS6 speakers at 31.5 Hz. If I go with 31.5 Hz output (112.7 dB x 2) for the LS6's in combination with my IB15HT''s, then my total score is 299. I don't reroute LFE bass to the mains, but since I use a phantom center, my mains are playing bass from the L, C, R for movies.

 

So, you would be 384@10hz and 299@31.5hz if I understood you correctly.

 

Very nice!


dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 06:00 PM 09-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

4 CHT 18.2: 284 at 10hz

2 DTS-10's: 133 at 16hz

8 eD 190v2 sealed: 255 at 10hz

4 eD LLT's: 173 at 12.5 hz

12 eD 13av2: 247 at 10hz

8 IB318: 125 at 10hz

 

Sounds like the best is yet to come MK. 247 to 125 should be around 6 more db of headroom...not like you needed it before!


MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 06:01 PM 09-18-2013
In my room the array starts at seat level and goes to the top of the screen which is perfect for an array! I have also measured THD at the seats and at 105 dBs sine wave I was under 1% THD throughout except at 2.2khz which I had a null which created about 3 % THD at 105 dBs. I am hoping the baffle wall will get rid of that null but either way it is very clean at reference so all one has to do is balance the response correctly and BAM!
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 06:06 PM 09-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

In my room the array starts at seat level and goes to the top of the screen which is perfect for an array! I have also measured THD at the seats and at 105 dBs sine wave I was under 1% THD throughout except at 2.2khz which I had a null which created about 3 % THD at 105 dBs. I am hoping the baffle wall will get rid of that null but either way it is very clean at reference so all one has to do is balance the response correctly and BAM!

 

Your build is done? Link please...


dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 07:17 PM 09-18-2013

So, wrapping up the JTR ported/horn subs max output estimates (for the S1 and S2, we'll just use the UXL as reference):

 

Cap 2400 (20hz) = 114db at 20hz or 3.1SI

  • see above estimation methdology

 

Cap 2400 (15hz - plug for 20hz model) = 102db at 12.5hz or 2.9SI

  • Both the VTF-15H and the FV15HP between the 2 port mode vs 1 port mode, yield aprox. the same 20hz output. In the Cap's case this would be 114db.
  • They are also around 11db down from 20hz to 12.5hz. This would put the Cap at 103db at 12.5hz.
  • If it is 103db at 12.5hz, that is damn impressive...
  • Thoughts here?

 

Cap 2400 (17.5hz) = 112db at 16hz or 5.1SI

  • Slightly lower than tune at 16hz, so I deducted 2db from the output
  • 5.1SI?? Wow. Looks like we found the ULF sweet spot here for the cap...

 

OS 120db at 20hz or 6.2SI

  • Slightly less output than GH (122db) because is doesn't use both sides of driver like a tapped horn does.

 

If we agree, I'll update my Estimated chart on the first page.


carp's Avatar carp 07:34 PM 09-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

So, wrapping up the JTR ported/horn subs max output estimates (for the S1 and S2, we'll just use the UXL as reference):

Cap 2400 (20hz) = 114db at 20hz or 3.1SI
  • see above estimation methdology

Cap 2400 (15hz - plug for 20hz model) = 102db at 12.5hz or 2.9SI
  • Both the VTF-15H and the FV15HP between the 2 port mode vs 1 port mode, yield aprox. the same 20hz output. In the Cap's case this would be 114db.
  • They are also around 11db down from 20hz to 12.5hz. This would put the Cap at 103db at 12.5hz.
  • If it is 103db at 12.5hz, that is damn impressive...
  • Thoughts here?

Cap 2400 (17.5hz) = 112db at 16hz or 5.1SI
  • Slightly lower than tune at 16hz, so I deducted 2db from the output
  • 5.1SI?? Wow. Looks like we found the ULF sweet spot here for the cap...

OS 120db at 20hz or 6.2SI
  • Slightly less output than GH (122db) because is doesn't use both sides of driver like a tapped horn does.

If we agree, I'll update my Estimated chart on the first page.


I don't know about that 16 hz output. I've owned dual Caps and demo'd the song Bass I Love you a ton of times both with the Caps and my SI's. That note that shakes the hell out of everything is centered at 17hz and my SI's have a lot more output and shake on that note than my Caps did. Granted I was powering with and ep4000 but still, Archaea has commented that the best he's heard Bass I Love you is on the 8 SI's, and according to the above he would have 10.2 SI's. I don't think that can be right....
carp's Avatar carp 07:39 PM 09-18-2013
The Cap is a beast though to be sure, I've held the driver and it has to be close to twice the weight of the SI driver.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 07:50 PM 09-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


I don't know about that 16 hz output. I've owned dual Caps and demo'd the song Bass I Love you a ton of times both with the Caps and my SI's. That note that shakes the hell out of everything is centered at 17hz and my SI's have a lot more output and shake on that note than my Caps did. Granted I was powering with and ep4000 but still, Archaea has commented that the best he's heard Bass I Love you is on the 8 SI's, and according to the above he would have 10.2 SI's. I don't think that can be right....

 

Hmmm, good feedback. 

 

Maybe you're leaving 2 dbs on the table with the EP4000 compared to the plate amp? If that were the case, it would put it at 110db which is 4.1SI. Still to high.

 

What if we said 110db at 16hz, and with the EP, it gets it down to 108db.

 
108db would put it at 3.2SI, which would end up being 6.4 SI for duals compared to your 8 SI.

MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 08:05 PM 09-18-2013
The Rhytmik and HSU both are tuned around 12hz with one port and the cap is at 15hz so it would drop off faster at 12.5 hz than the others.
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 08:05 PM 09-18-2013
Oh, the build is not done, still waiting on the drivers.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 08:07 PM 09-18-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The Rhytmik and HSU both are tuned around 12hz with one port and the cap is at 15hz so it would drop off faster at 12.5 hz than the others.

 

Actually, the HSU is tuned at 17hz and 24hz as listed in Josh's review...


MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 08:28 PM 09-18-2013
I don't know how the THD keeps low under tune.
GoCaboNow's Avatar GoCaboNow 10:53 AM 09-19-2013
Cool idea!

How are you figuring the IB setups? I have 4x Fi IB3 18's (2ohm) paired with a EP4000. Sealed, 2600cf. I also have two 12" subs in the back of the room. (Athena AS-P6000 cool.giftongue.gif)
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 11:55 AM 09-19-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

Cool idea!

How are you figuring the IB setups? I have 4x Fi IB3 18's (2ohm) paired with a EP4000. Sealed, 2600cf. I also have two 12" subs in the back of the room. (Athena AS-P6000 cool.giftongue.gif)

433 at 10hz.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 07:51 PM 09-19-2013

Sounds like we've got 'silent' agreement on the JTR subs...I think what we've come up with is within +-3db of what Josh's test would reveal.

 

Here's the new estimated chart, also posted on post 2:

 


dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 08:14 PM 09-19-2013

Member scores updated.

 

Also, I refined some of the categories from an above reference and reference output from a 'lowest frequency' standpoint; meaning you get in-room reference or above reference bass at least at the anechoic frequency listed and higher.

 

Look at the member scores collected thus far. Does that feel about right? Remember, it ain't perfect...accurate to +- a half star. But generally...

 

Also, for those member that I don't have amps listed, please let me know what you're running.

 

LL

 

5 Stars - Above Reference Output

mktheater - 125@10hz - 2048cf - Infinite Baffle 8x18 FI IB3 powered by a fp14000 clone

popalock - 163@10hz - 2605cf - 16 x 18 SIs powered by a 2 fp14000 clones

dominguez1 - 232@12.5hz - 1900cf - Dual FTW-21 in sealed cabs powered by 2 ep4000s, Dual FV15HPs

laugsbach - 247@12.5hz - 3000cf - 4 CHT 18.1s, Ricci's DIY XXX Ported w/RE Audio MX-18 D2 Driver, both powered by EP4000s

lukeamdman - 112@16hz - 2500cf - Dual Gjallarhorns, Dual Othorns

siefer300 - 156@16hz - 1404cf - 4 CHT VS18.1, 2 Cap 1000's, powered by Crown XTI 4000s

 

4.5 Stars - Reference Output (10hz & 12.5hz systems), Above Reference (16hz and higher)

steveo1234 - 324@10hz 1300cf - 6 AE IB 15 (Infinite Baffle)

carp - 379@10hz - 3035cf - 8 x 18 SIs

desertdome - 384@10hz - 2153cf - 8 AE IB 15

dominguez1 - 432@10hz - 1900cf - Dual FTW-21 in sealed cabs powered by 2 ep4000s, Dual FV15HPs

GoCaboNow - 433@10hz - 2600cf - 4x Fi IB3 18's paired with an EP4000

cubalis2 - 561@10hz - 3200cf - 2 x LMS-U 18's FP14K clone, 2 x LMS-R 15"s dual opposed inuke 6000DSP

archaea - 565@16hz - 3500cf - 2 Passive Caps (20hz model) with Crown XLS5000 amps

 

4 Stars - Reference Output (16hz and higher)

wth718 - 700@10hz - 1400cf - 2 x 18 SIs

MikeDuke - 714@10hz - 1000cf - 1 SubM HP

laugsbach - 836@10hz - 3000cf - 4 CHT 18.1s, Ricci's DIY XXX Ported w/RE Audio MX-18 D2 Driver, both powered by EP4000s

landshark1 - 781@16hz - 2500cf - Dual PB12 Plus

basshead81 - 800@16hz - 2400cf - 3 PSA XV15's

 

3.5 Stars

cowboys - 1400@12.5hz - 2660cf - Rythmik FV15HP (550w)

reddig - 1326@16hz - 1856cf - Dual  HSU VTF-2 MK4s

 

3 Stars

eNoize - 2066@12.5hz - 2500cf - HSU VTF-15H

qguy - 1954@20hz - 1368cf - Rythmik F15

 

2.5 Stars

None

 

2 Stars

tenderchkn - 3500@16hz - 3500cf - PSA XV15

 

1.5 Stars

SupaKats - 4761@16hz - 4600cf - Outlaw LFM1-EX

 

1 Star

None


MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 08:33 PM 09-19-2013
My room will be 1547 cubic feet once the wall is done and it was 1820 for reference.
stereo2.0's Avatar stereo2.0 09:39 PM 09-19-2013
Hey Dominguez1, could you add my info to the list?

stereo2.0 - 515@16Hz - 3500cf - single DTS-10, powered by a Proton D1200.

Thanks.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 09:51 PM 09-19-2013
Will do. That is a damn impressive score to have above reference output at at least 16hz in 3500 cubes with just 1 sub!
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 10:20 PM 09-19-2013
I told many that for the $995 kit price they were a no brainer!
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