Your Home Theater ULF Score - Page 121 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3601 of 3622 Unread 07-23-2015, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Looks like I have a couple of more subs to estimate for ULF:

RA Echo 18XL
  • How does the XL compare against the Echo 18?

PSA V1800
  • How does the V1800 compare against the V1500 or V3600?
@basshead81 , @jbrown15 , thoughts here?
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post #3602 of 3622 Unread 07-23-2015, 07:24 PM
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The XL is 3db more output, the V1800 is down 5ish db from the V3600i.

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post #3603 of 3622 Unread 07-24-2015, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The XL is 3db more output, the V1800 is down 5ish db from the V3600i.
The XL averages 4.5dB over the Echo 18, in the ULF range the XL has more than 4.5dB advantage. It would have about a 1.5-2dB advantage over a Cap 2400.


How is the V1800 down 5dB and not 6dB?

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post #3604 of 3622 Unread 07-24-2015, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
The XL averages 4.5dB over the Echo 18, in the ULF range the XL has more than 4.5dB advantage. It would have about a 1.5-2dB advantage over a Cap 2400.


How is the V1800 down 5dB and not 6dB?
I was going off of what Chuck posted in the Reaction thread, so my fault there for doing so.


I did say 5ish... I thought I read somewhere between 5-6db. It could be more or less I do not know to be exact as I have not been following the PSA thread closely. I would assume like you at least 6db.

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post #3605 of 3622 Unread 07-24-2015, 10:58 AM
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Good stuff from all contributing. Were on a roll now. We got some good data from the DIYer's but need more. We need some of the ID sub owners to post. Lets see some tactile transducer owners post their data, sub only, TT only then both together. Give us as much detail as possible such room size and openings, subs used and placement, amps and power, flooring and seating, etc.

Don't be shy. I know theres some big numbers thrown up here already, but this data, even if you only hit 1/10 or 1/100 of a G, is valuable to assessing what is happening. I know for a fact that having front/rear sub arrays can be problematic from a tactile standpoint.

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post #3606 of 3622 Unread 07-24-2015, 09:56 PM
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So today I got my EP's fans modded. As I said I bought these about few years back. Then I found the pics of the amps in a home I sold 3 years back. So I went looking for the receipt and found it. Purchased these 12/27/11. So much for the 3 year warranty that has run out on amps that haven't even been used. Guess the fans would have voided the warranty. Anyway they work fine. Nice and gutsy. Took a break from EOT with the 5.1 DTS Surround Sampler. Track 1-Surround Madness starts with the theme from Star Trek and at 00:23- 00:45 has a nice 20 sec blast of 28hz . This is straight up without any Audyssey or MiniDSP. Didn't push it but this is a big step up from the Emo which it should be. I did do the simultaneous Omnimic/Vsensor per Dom's request. I'll give this a good thrashing this weekend.









The Apollo 13 is the one that felt the most tactile. Lotsa ULF goodness there.

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post #3607 of 3622 Unread 07-26-2015, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
It appears the term "G" men has made a comeback. Heres some prospective on the acceleration/TR achieved in a/these 1g systems. Now we know that 1g=9.81meters/sec as we have the ability to switch back and forth in VSensor. 9.81m/s= 32.185feet/sec. So at 32fps it would be like entering an elevator on the first floor and reaching the forth floor in one second. I don't know about you but its doubtful I could remain standing without using all four limbs to support me. Thats some serious acceleration!
just a quick sidebar...


position with respect to acceleration = initial position + initial velocity * time in motion + 1/2 constant acceleration * (time of acceleration squared).


starting at position zero and with no initial velocity knocks out the first two terms, so we are left with 1/2at^2.


1/2 32(ft/s^2)*1(s)^2 = 16ft.


so after accelerating at the rate of gravity for one second, one would be 16 feet off the ground, not 32.

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post #3608 of 3622 Unread 07-26-2015, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
just a quick sidebar...


position with respect to acceleration = initial position + initial velocity * time in motion + 1/2 constant acceleration * (time of acceleration squared).


starting at position zero and with no initial velocity knocks out the first two terms, so we are left with 1/2at^2.


1/2 32(ft/s^2)*1(s)^2 = 16ft.


so after accelerating at the rate of gravity for one second, one would be 16 feet off the ground, not 32.
Gotcha, because were starting at 1g and accelerating to one additional g or from 0fps@0sec to 32fps@1sec mark.

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post #3609 of 3622 Unread 07-26-2015, 10:45 PM
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after coming back to this thread having read the first several pages a long time ago, I'm almost wondering if "g's" is the wrong way to be looking at the data.


"g's" in the sense of the peak recurring values in a sine wave don't really have the same meaning as constant "g's" that one might experience under constant acceleration (such as while accelerating in a jet plane or going around a corner fast in a car).


the peak g's in a sine wave are micro-bursts in one direction and then immediately followed by a reversal.


we could, for example, calculate g's for a subwoofer...


for example, a woofer moving back and forth at 20hz and covering a peak-to-peak distance of 50.8mm (+/- 1 inch displacement) is experiencing:


2 * pi^2 * f^2 * D / 9.8 m/s^2 worth of g's, or roughly


2* 3.14^2 * 20^2 * 0.0508m / 9.8 m/s^2 = 40.9 g's.


however, those peak g forces are experienced only at the very peak of excursion (and even then for only an instant) and then reversed at the other peak of excursion in the opposite direction. so in some sense, the subwoofer isn't really experiencing 41 g's, even though it is. :-)


the other oddball effect in using g's is seen in the equation above--g's are a function of squared frequency. so the higher the frequency, all other things equal, the greater the g force. twice the frequency = 4 times the g force. but also, twice the frequency means the g force will be experienced for only 1/2 as much time (the sine waves are only half as long). so if your couch is moving back and forth 10mm at 10hz, it's g's will only be 1/4 the g's of the same 10mm at 20hz. so I'm not sure that is exactly what you guys are after here.


food for thought. :-)
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post #3610 of 3622 Unread 07-26-2015, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
after coming back to this thread having read the first several pages a long time ago, I'm almost wondering if "g's" is the wrong way to be looking at the data.


"g's" in the sense of the peak recurring values in a sine wave don't really have the same meaning as constant "g's" that one might experience under constant acceleration (such as while accelerating in a jet plane or going around a corner fast in a car).


the peak g's in a sine wave are micro-bursts in one direction and then immediately followed by a reversal.


we could, for example, calculate g's for a subwoofer...


for example, a woofer moving back and forth at 20hz and covering a peak-to-peak distance of 50.8mm (+/- 1 inch displacement) is experiencing:


2 * pi^2 * f^2 * D / 9.8 m/s^2 worth of g's, or roughly


2* 3.14^2 * 20^2 * 0.0508m / 9.8 m/s^2 = 40.9 g's.


however, those peak g forces are experienced only at the very peak of excursion (and even then for only an instant) and then reversed at the other peak of excursion in the opposite direction. so in some sense, the subwoofer isn't really experiencing 41 g's, even though it is. :-)


the other oddball effect in using g's is seen in the equation above--g's are a function of squared frequency. so the higher the frequency, all other things equal, the greater the g force. twice the frequency = 4 times the g force. but also, twice the frequency means the g force will be experienced for only 1/2 as much time (the sine waves are only half as long). so if your couch is moving back and forth 10mm at 10hz, it's g's will only be 1/4 the g's of the same 10mm at 20hz. so I'm not sure that is exactly what you guys are after here.


food for thought. :-)
Basically we want to measure the Tactile Response from the seat and explore why different rooms and setups behave certain ways. A subwoofer can be likened to the pendulum and that has different characteristic's than a plane. People feel G like the astronauts do during flight. Those vibrations are measured in gravity. I started using the PSD and LogPSD graphs more the last day or two and that really answer what I suspected all along and what you mentioned. It takes exactly 4x or more to have the same feel or impact as we drop octaves. Over the last 20 pages or so here I think I mentioned that the displacement demands grow at that rate and is the reason so many give up or state that ULF doesn't do it for them. As far as the G or m/s being our measuring stick, your not alone in it feeling of weirdness. This is new to all of us. Its freaky weird. But give it a chance. Its so radical and from left field, but, the more I work with it, the more comfortable its become and its showing me things and making me look at this from a whole new perspective. Its so simple and on the other hand, so complicated. The Vsensor can identify the frequencies remarkably and accurately by using vibration. It can show us the tactile properties in a room that no mic based measurement system can. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. But I'm telling I have a feeling this is the next step in really identifying whats happening in our rooms from a TR standpoint.

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post #3611 of 3622 Unread 07-27-2015, 12:32 AM
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Well I think I hit a breakthrough today. I Re-Focused on the primary task at hand, our system’s tactile response at the MLP. Spent some time friday and saturday setting up the amps, taking voltage measurements with and without the MiniDSP. I find the lo shelf indispensable, so I’m using the dsp until I get a better solution. I’m able to get a max of 1.3-1.4v at the output which should be enough to drive the EP’s. Never do see the red clip light on the amps though. Boy did i heat those EP’s up. You could smell them. A good thrashing for sure with multiple 10 secs sine followed by 3 sec rest on individual 1-10hz tone, then I looped twice more. On to the test results.

So, per Dom’s and Okv’s suggestion I moved on from the EoT test runs. Actually have yet to test it with the new power. First test was a 6hz sine tone off of the SOHO54 test dvd using the .1 LFE tests tones and sweeps.




The only eq is above mentioned lo shelf 30hz/+16db/.5Q. As I mentioned many times the Vsensor is exact in its measured and the PSD shows the 6hz tone centered at 6.3hz. I made 2 Runs at -10dbmv and 0dbmv. Here are the graphs in the PSD(linear) and LogPSD scales. For once the X axis shows up. Now there practically no vibration recorded but the spl is steady during the 10 sec run at 115.9db. You can see third order rearing its ugly head at 24z. Note that on the the LogPSD scale the decade is 1e-07. Whats significant here is what happens on the next run with gain raised 10db.






SOHO54 identify this as 6hz when its clearly 6.3hz. Hopefully he'll correctly identify this in future releases.

On the 0dbmv run I have a constant SPL reading of 125.3db so compression is starting to creep in or the MiniDSP could be running out gas. Why is this significant? Taking a look at the LogPSD we see exactly a decade difference compared to the -10dbmv run. So apparently the PSD tracks at a line per DB, as it should. And since the both PSD’s are graphed in the frequency domain we can zoom in to the exact frequency and power scale. Run#1 peaked at 1e-07+2 while Run#2 peaked at 1e-06+2. You also see third order is out of control. but I didn’t hear the 24hz harmonic. Heres where the importance of the PSD graphs come in, the .1LFE Sweeps. I used the 35-1hz and 60-1hz sweeps. First, heres all the graphs. I’ll explain as we go along.

Heres the first slow sweep@1x and 2x.





My FR is flat +- 2db from 5-40hz. TR doesn't follow the FR here. However you can tell the EQ is working because of flat to actual rising response from 10-5hz. With this sweep you can once again see the 15hz tactile null that DD and I have. Then it picks up. Yet the room is pressurized to the point that at 6hz I can close the door thats opened six inches.

LinPSD to show Freqs.




Heres the huge pressurization zone or what Dom refers to as ULFTR#2. Its time we reintroduce those different types here since thats where I'm going with this.

Heres the Vibration graph. Look familiar? Bet you can find the 15hz TR null.





And the 60-1hz sweep.



The 1-10hz zoom in.



The Vibration Graph



Whats it mean. Well if over a decade separation(from 12 to 15 lines/db)between LFTR and ULFTR in my system i will need the equivalent of that much more output to match the vibration intensity of the LFTR. Were talking 4-5x as much displacement. I would need to bump my 8 subs up by 24-56 subs to make the Type 1 TR flat. So I believe this shows that while room gain effects and helps SPL, it does little to help Type 1 TR. You have vibration through pressurization but not close to the power of the LFTR.
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post #3612 of 3622 Unread 07-27-2015, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the other oddball effect in using g's is seen in the equation above--g's are a function of squared frequency. so the higher the frequency, all other things equal, the greater the g force. twice the frequency = 4 times the g force. but also, twice the frequency means the g force will be experienced for only 1/2 as much time (the sine waves are only half as long). so if your couch is moving back and forth 10mm at 10hz, it's g's will only be 1/4 the g's of the same 10mm at 20hz. so I'm not sure that is exactly what you guys are after here.
What LTD referenced here is something I thought about the first day I started using VS. I stated a couple of weeks or months back that I thought room gain didn't play a part in the final ULFTR equation, but that its tied to the cab's response or ground plane measurement. @3ll3d00d after graphing my EoT response made that statement that theres not much going on at 10hz. But I felt the tactile element at 10hz and below so whats really happening. Lately I refer back to the first page and Dom's first thoughts on this matter. I've copied them here.



ULF Perception

IMO, There are two types of ULF Perception:
Indirect Tactile Feedback - ULF Feedback indirectly affecting the listener through objects they are touching (e.g. floor, couch, HT seating).
Direct Tactile Feedback - ULF Feedback directly affecting the listener from sound waves/acoustic energy from the subwoofers.

This tactile feedback from ULF can be perceived in Layers. Each layer adds to a better perception of reality or "realistic recreation of the onscreen event" (realizing this is silly and why it is in quotes). I'll explain the ULF layers in an example:

I have 4.5 Star ULF at 10hz in my 1900cf room. I sit on concrete, with 2 FV15HPs a foot behind my couch, and dual FTW21s flanking the front screen. The room is sealed with 3 concrete surfaces. I recently watched the OHF Washington Monument scene multiple times to try and get a better understanding of the different aspects of ULF perception:

I watch the scene at the main LP. ULF Layer 1 (Indirect Tactile Feedback): lots of great shaking and wobble that occurs through the ULF interacting with the couch
I watch the scene standing up, separating myself from the couch. ULF Layer 2 (Direct Tactile Feedback): I lose the effect of the couch shaking...which certainly takes away from the effect. However, my clothes are exhibiting that same shaking/wobbling, almost like a fan was on. Keep in mind, I'm standing on concrete and no other object is interacting with me. I feel the 'weightiness' of the room, and movement/wobble of my clothes.
I watch the scene again, but with tight under-armour type clothing so that my clothes don't move. ULF Layer 3 (Direct Tactile Feedback): nothing is interacting with me, but ULF sound waves. My focus shifts more to the weight of the room, perception of increased heart rate, slight perception of internal organs being batted around, perception of hair moving, pressure/'ear popping', etc.
Sitting back down again, I replay the scene appreciating all 3 Layers at once.

The point of it all, is that the combination of all of the above, adds to the overall "realism" and what I experienced "in total" sitting in my main listening position. Take one of the layers away, and you're missing the potential of the ULF effect.

Layer 1 (Indirect TF) for this scene can be recreated by high ULF that interacts to objects that are in contact with you (couch, suspended floor), and potentially be recreated by properly implemented tranducers.

Layers 2 and 3 (Direct TF) for this scene can only be recreated by high ULF.

IMO, you need them all for the full ULF experience.


This is the keyword here, Layers. As we know, three different meters are needed to show the complete low frequency response in its four parts, Low Frequency Response, Ultra Low Frequency Response, Low Frequency Tactile Response, Ultra Low Frequency Tactile Response. Those meters are an Accelerometer, Particle Velocity meter and a Sound Level meter. Sound Level Meter for LFR and ULFR, the Accelerometer and PV meter for LFTR and ULFTR, but specifically the VS accelerometer for Type or Layer 1 TR and the PV meter for Layer 2 and 3.

The Power Spectral Density graphs show very clearly whats needed in my room to flatten and extend ULFTR, about 15db worth of displacement and acceleration. As LTD stated above and I did awhile back, a great many more drivers are needed or to design and power a box that flat to these frequencies. I experimented with a staged arrays in the late eighties and believe that would work but may not be practical. At any rate, far greater (and impractical) displacement than first thought. Above 20hz I/we have acceleration+velocity but below 20z its just acceleration as velocity falls off. Thats why we need 4x the displacement per octave lower to recapture that velocity and bring it up to the level of the LFTR.

This is where it gets a little complicated and tangled. We have the interaction of the components that make up the final response with the four key elements of LFR, ULFR, LFTR, ULFTR. We got the drivers and the room and the stuff we sit on and all kinds of flooring and riser and on and on. But one key element to not forget is the human element. I mentioned before that my response felt gutless between 20-15hz and that was before the VS meter hit the scene. Then the VS data backed that up and I was able to fix half of that by eliminating time alignment. But its that human element or perception/experience that can skew the TR perception. I've referenced several times @3ll3d00d comments about my 10hz response and that nothing was really happening there. My opinion differed based on VS graphs and physical perception. Theres no way 30hz could blow out candles, close a door, do the hair trick(Not close to what Steve Meade does though) and feel gusts of wind blowing on my arms and face. Hitting 126db@6hz is no joke, and yet, even with all the above mentioned effects I'm 12db down in power. No question I have a huge tactile response @6hz but it primarily Layer 2 and 3 and not Layer 1, though my perception was it was Layer 1. You take away the the room gain and EQ and now the TR tracks closely to the cab sims. A 1/4" of driver excursion@30hz wrt Layer 2 and 3 TR is nothing compared to a 2" excursion@6hz. But power wise we need 8" of excursion to flatten the vibration and PSD graphs. I have the headroom to stack another 12-16db on but will have to lower the MV accordingly for the test. I can also simulate a vented alignment for testing purposes.

Whats the bottom line here. A vented alignment is the right choice to extend and flatten PSD and will give you more Layer2/3 TR and layer 1 TR if suspended or floated risers and/or TT's employed, especially important when the floors are concrete and the room is larger than 3000 cubes. A sealed alignment is also the right choice in smaller rooms, mid-size rooms with suspended floors and, if careful implementation is used, mega multiples in larger rooms. Because ULFTR is far more complicated than originally thought, we need the VS meter. Now that we know more about the PSD we can determine whats needed for a flat power response. We may not like what its telling, us but it will tells us, none the less. As it stands, a combo of vented plus sealed arrays may be the answer or TT's eq'd for flat PSD and Vibration down to 5hz and below. @Scott Simonian Active Riser(sub riser) may be the ultimate solution if EQ'd and power'd correctly, the next best thing to attaching the driver to our spine. Tactile Implants?! Uh......no way man. Well, not yet anyway.
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post #3613 of 3622 Unread 07-27-2015, 02:13 PM
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Here is my new score Dom. I can take a 5hz measurement if you need me too. Actually I probably already have it or you can calculate it for me. By the way. I think that you have underestimated the 1260W's. All 8 of them give my four HT18's a good battle!

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post #3614 of 3622 Unread 07-27-2015, 08:22 PM
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I just got some interesting results (at least to me) with VibSensor. This is my new center speaker playing EOT by itself at the listening position with the volume at -21.5 dB Reference Level for all the other speakers. I'm only playing the center channel, too. This does not include the LFE channel.

I'm gone the next 3 days and may not have a chance to respond.

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post #3615 of 3622 Unread 07-27-2015, 09:50 PM
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I just got some interesting results (at least to me) with VibSensor. This is my new center speaker playing EOT by itself at the listening position with the volume at -21.5 dB Reference Level for all the other speakers. I'm only playing the center channel, too. This does not include the LFE channel.

I'm gone the next 3 days and may not have a chance to respond.

That is interesting. What's the dimensions of your room?

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post #3616 of 3622 Unread Yesterday, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I just got some interesting results (at least to me) with VibSensor. This is my new center speaker playing EOT by itself at the listening position with the volume at -21.5 dB Reference Level for all the other speakers. I'm only playing the center channel, too. This does not include the LFE channel.

I'm gone the next 3 days and may not have a chance to respond.

I wish I knew the cause of this. My only guess is that maybe its related to driver Fs which is 15hz for my driver and probably your 15"s. The impedance curve of the HT18 on DataBass is the only thing that matches up with this TR null. I guess that makes sense, maybe. But if that is the case then every sealed system will show similar response and the only way to fix this without TT's is a few vented subs along with sealed for extension. That still doesn't explain your center having the same response.

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post #3617 of 3622 Unread Yesterday, 08:36 PM
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That bass sweep in EoT is the LFE channel and the center channel.
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That bass sweep in EoT is the LFE channel and the center channel.
Correct, but DD stated that it was the center only so I assume he had his subs shutdown.

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That bass sweep in EoT is the LFE channel and the center channel.
Scott, when you get a chance can you post the PSD and LogPSD from your early EoT run. Are your riser sub powered such that you can mute them or make a new test run with all subs but the riser subs running? The 6x SS subs are under your mains correct? They are running off the .1LFE? If so, can you make a separate run with just the front subs on, all rear and riser subs off please? Keep your MV the same with all test runs. I'm trying to figure out the cause of the 15hz null problem. Thanks man.

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post #3621 of 3622 Unread Today, 09:22 AM
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Scott, when you get a chance can you post the PSD and LogPSD from your early EoT run. Are your riser sub powered such that you can mute them or make a new test run with all subs but the riser subs running? The 6x SS subs are under your mains correct? They are running off the .1LFE? If so, can you make a separate run with just the front subs on, all rear and riser subs off please? Keep your MV the same with all test runs. I'm trying to figure out the cause of the 15hz null problem. Thanks man.
Oh yeah. I can do all that. With three Behringer DCX's I can do almost anything.

I have eight SI HT18's under the mains. I sit on two SS RLp18's and then I have two more dual opposed cabs behind me in the rear corners with each one loaded with two SS RLp18's. I also use six JBL 2226's up front above the speakers as subwoofers as well. All the subs are running off the main subwoofer output. My receiver has two sub outputs and each one has separate level and delay. The front and rear subs are hooked up to sub out 1 and the riser is hooked to sub out 2. This way, I can leave the overall bass where it is but with a simple button press on the AVR remote I can turn up or turn down just the riser. Very handy!

I can do a test just like that, no problem. Though on my system I did not have a null at 15hz like Mike (desertdome) has. My TR dropped off at 10hz which I wonder is worsened by an air leak.
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We also need someone with a concrete slab floor, no riser or anything else, just carpet or hardwood over slab, to make a few test runs with the EoT intro. I don't care how big or small the G's readout it's just the shape I'm looking at. If your using Tactile Transducer's shut them off for the test run. Then if you want, you can post a graph with them on for comparison. I need the Vibration, Raw, PSD and LogPSD graphs. Keep the test run to 20 seconds as that clip is 14 sec and that makes for better graph resolution. Of course anyone that wants to post theirs will be greatly appreciated.

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Last edited by coolrda; Today at 09:39 AM.
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