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Old 03-02-2016, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Don't want to damage anything, lol.
You don't want to damage it, but Why not?

Here is some random dude hooking up a 7kW amp to a UM-10 in free-air and then hitting it with a hammer. Seems like they can take a beating. Literally!
The UM-18 is even beefier than this.

71V RMS is 1260watts @ 4-ohms. If you are using an inuke you could set the limiter to that, additionally you could connect a cheap $15 multimeter from walmart to confirm you aren't exceeding that voltage.
Should be safe as long as you let the sub cool for 30 second between each sweep.
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Good idea. I've always ran my front and rears eq'd the same. I've moved on from XT+miniDSP to XT32 only. Once I get my front subs back in the system it should give me a noticeable boost to TR above 30hz with Audyssey needing far less correction there. One thing I've found is proximity reduction has a far greater effect on flattening TR than eqing ever could. The closer the sub or transducer the broader and flatter the TR.
FWIW here are my correction curves in direct signal (voltage) terms (ignoring gain adjustment). Brown is the NF and green is my main sub. The nearfield is 3-5dB hotter in the 12-30Hz range but is rolled off steeply at 48Hz. I don't have subs front and back so the big dip in the green line is EQ to cut the length mode. The NF has the same problem but uses a smaller direct dip + a VBA to try to preserve the direct signal. The NF has a substantial gain adjustment overall on top of this to account for its proximity.



I suspect I could/should run it harder still in the 15-30Hz range and roll off even more steeply. It's just quite time consuming to create such filters

On reflection, I think there's an argument here that I'm basically treating my NF sub as if it were just a port with no driver attached (i.e. v narrow pass band, just get it pumping as hard as possible within that range). Perhaps I should just build a ported box instead!
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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@derrickdj1 ,

Were you ever able to use VibSensor with the sine waves? The VS graphs all appear like they are the EOT clip...again, too many variables to draw definitive solutions, IMO.

Also, with your phase tests, did you happen to grab your FR when in and out of phase?
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:50 PM
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The Vibsensor data is EOT, not enough time to do all the sine wave testing. I did not do a FR of phase testing. You can see when out of phase adjust spl for cancellation, no real change in Vibsensor data. Also, in phase testing had the greatest 30 Hz output. Let's see what Coolrda get's out of the data.
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Old 03-02-2016, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
The Vibsensor data is EOT, not enough time to do all the sine wave testing. I did not do a FR of phase testing. You can see when out of phase adjust spl for cancellation, no real change in Vibsensor data. Also, in phase testing had the greatest 30 Hz output. Let's see what Coolrda get's out of the data.
Gotcha...you still plan on getting around to it?

What does "out of phase adjust for cancellation" mean?
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:06 PM
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The spl level was raised to the in phase level. I will try and get my wife's iphone another day for some testing.
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
The spl level was raised to the in phase level. I will try and get my wife's iphone another day for some testing.
Any luck with the iphone?
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:13 PM
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Ok, so I've had a chance to look over @derrickdj1 's data and graphs. When I started using VS, the goals were twofold. First, to use to test all the various aspect of a subwoofer system and all the elements that sum to make up the tactile response. The room, the driver, the cab, the seating, the floor/riser construction, the placement and proximity and all the other aspects. While there are many variables, the biggest one being the actual model of accelerometer being used, with detailed testing and documentation of each test run, we can use the data to better understand and correct our playback systems to represent the source. Up until now, subwoofer systems and accompanying rooms descriptions have been subjective at best. "My room hits hard" really tells me nothing. All of our rooms do this to a certain degree, otherwise, we wouldn't be here talking about it, right? Having a signal chain capable of Low ULF is the first thing. Then having a mic-based measurement platform is second, going from 2D graphing like REW and Omnimic to 3D graphs like Speclab and others. When these graphs are displayed here, and we know how to read them, we have a much better idea of what all our fellow LF/ULF nuts are talking about and describing wrt their systems. This, however, is far from a complete picture of system capability. 2D is good but 3D gives us a complete picture of what a system is capable of seated at the MLP. You can have flat frequency response and terrible tactile response and vice versa. That leads me to the second goal, flat system response to the best of our systems ability. You can only do so much if the signal chain doesn't cooperate. With a considerable effort and by using all the above mentioned measurement gear, I've got about as close to a flat response as my system is capable of. It makes for the best total subwoofer experience that I've experienced to date.

One thing I want to mention @dominguez1 is that the relationship between Vibration and the PSD's, while close, are not always the same. Much like two different 600hp engines can have different torque curves. Thats why I liken the Vibration(horsepower) and PSD(torque) too. For now here's a couple graphs demonstrating my point.

First is the EOT digital source graph.



My latest VS. Notice the difference between this and the above graph of mine posted by Dom.



Here's Derrick's.



Its not surprising with his size room and placement to have rolloff of TR(notice I didn't say FR)at 15hz and 10hz. Of more importance is his reasonable accurate TR at 20 and above. Some of you may only get the 30hz and 25hz before TR rolloff but atleast you will know what to work on and tactile transducers, which hasn't been covered much yet with VS testing, may be the solution. So that should be everyones goal, flat and extended source, sound pressure and tactile response.
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Old 03-05-2016, 11:00 PM
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Ok guys, I hear port chuffing at extreme levels of bass from the rear subs. This is at a level the IB never went to and made a 3 star bass movie like WOTW! This is ridonculous!
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Old 03-06-2016, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Ok, so I've had a chance to look over @derrickdj1 's data and graphs. When I started using VS, the goals were twofold. First, to use to test all the various aspect of a subwoofer system and all the elements that sum to make up the tactile response. The room, the driver, the cab, the seating, the floor/riser construction, the placement and proximity and all the other aspects. While there are many variables, the biggest one being the actual model of accelerometer being used, with detailed testing and documentation of each test run, we can use the data to better understand and correct our playback systems to represent the source. Up until now, subwoofer systems and accompanying rooms descriptions have been subjective at best. "My room hits hard" really tells me nothing. All of our rooms do this to a certain degree, otherwise, we wouldn't be here talking about it, right? Having a signal chain capable of Low ULF is the first thing. Then having a mic-based measurement platform is second, going from 2D graphing like REW and Omnimic to 3D graphs like Speclab and others. When these graphs are displayed here, and we know how to read them, we have a much better idea of what all our fellow LF/ULF nuts are talking about and describing wrt their systems. This, however, is far from a complete picture of system capability. 2D is good but 3D gives us a complete picture of what a system is capable of seated at the MLP. You can have flat frequency response and terrible tactile response and vice versa. That leads me to the second goal, flat system response to the best of our systems ability. You can only do so much if the signal chain doesn't cooperate. With a considerable effort and by using all the above mentioned measurement gear, I've got about as close to a flat response as my system is capable of. It makes for the best total subwoofer experience that I've experienced to date.

One thing I want to mention @dominguez1 is that the relationship between Vibration and the PSD's, while close, are not always the same. Much like two different 600hp engines can have different torque curves. Thats why I liken the Vibration(horsepower) and PSD(torque) too. For now here's a couple graphs demonstrating my point.

First is the EOT digital source graph.



My latest VS. Notice the difference between this and the above graph of mine posted by Dom.



Here's Derrick's.



Its not surprising with his size room and placement to have rolloff of TR(notice I didn't say FR)at 15hz and 10hz. Of more importance is his reasonable accurate TR at 20 and above. Some of you may only get the 30hz and 25hz before TR rolloff but atleast you will know what to work on and tactile transducers, which hasn't been covered much yet with VS testing, may be the solution. So that should be everyones goal, flat and extended source, sound pressure and tactile response.
The problem I've struggled with so far with the VibSensor app is that scale that it uses acceleration to determine how much vibration is occurring. Acceleration is tough to grasp as we typically relate it to one way acceleration (like 0-60, or G's around a slalom). It sort of make sense, but still not very intuitive as to what's going on in the room for others to imagine.

I like the Vibration Meter app, because it related the shaking to something we can imagine...earthquakes. The VM app used the Mercalli scale, a typical way to measure earthquakes.



It sure would be nice if we could convert the VS scale (Gs) into the Mercalli scale so we could have a better understanding of what it's like to sit in each other Main Listening Postion...

Well, I found this:



This is from wikipedia, and converts the Gs to Mercalli. The Mercalli scale is the Instrumental intensity column, I believe.

Looking at @coolrda and @derrickdj1 VS vibration graphs above, you see that they both hit around .5 Gs. On the scale above that indicates "Severe" or the Mercalli scale description:

  • Panel walls thrown out of frames; fall of walls, monuments, chimneys; sand and mud ejected; drivers of autos distrubed.


DAYUM That there some crazy shaking going on!

Here are some notable earthquakes and the G's that they pulled:

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Old 03-06-2016, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
The problem I've struggled with so far with the VibSensor app is that scale that it uses acceleration to determine how much vibration is occurring. Acceleration is tough to grasp as we typically relate it to one way acceleration (like 0-60, or G's around a slalom). It sort of make sense, but still not very intuitive as to what's going on in the room for others to imagine.

I like the Vibration Meter app, because it related the shaking to something we can imagine...earthquakes. The VM app used the Mercalli scale, a typical way to measure earthquakes.



It sure would be nice if we could convert the VS scale (Gs) into the Mercalli scale so we could have a better understanding of what it's like to sit in each other Main Listening Postion...

Well, I found this:



This is from wikipedia, and converts the Gs to Mercalli. The Mercalli scale is the Instrumental intensity column, I believe.

Looking at @coolrda and @derrickdj1 VS vibration graphs above, you see that they both hit around .5 Gs. On the scale above that indicates "Severe" or the Mercalli scale description:

  • Panel walls thrown out of frames; fall of walls, monuments, chimneys; sand and mud ejected; drivers of autos distrubed.


DAYUM That there some crazy shaking going on!

Here are some notable earthquakes and the G's that they pulled:

I like it. While VM and VS(VM uses cm/s while VS uses m/s but G's are the same) should read the same on any given meter, VM gives you a additional prospective and resource.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
You don't want to damage it, but Why not?
This is long overdo but we're changing you name to BassThatKills.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Ok guys, I hear port chuffing at extreme levels of bass from the rear subs. This is at a level the IB never went to and made a 3 star bass movie like WOTW! This is ridonculous!
Awesome,...but....Whaaa...port chuffing?! Vented subs?! NOOOOOO! Not you MK. Say it ain't so. Your journey to the dark side isn't complete. Come back MK, come back.
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Old 03-06-2016, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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With the above Gs to Mercalli conversion, I think we can add this to the ULF Card...



What do you guys think? Add it to the ULF Score/Card?

This will give the total picture of what your ULF experience is like.

We still need to vet what content is best to create the VS score (EOT, Sine Waves, etc.), as 5hz and 12.5hz are missing.

Thoughts?
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:29 PM
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I live nowhere near an earthquake zone so have no idea whether the comparison is valid but the description sounds miles out of line with the numbers vibsensor reports, i.e. the vs numbers are much higher.

From the wiki link

0.001 g (0.01 m/s²) – perceptible by people
0.02  g (0.2  m/s²) – people lose their balance
0.50  g – very high; well-designed buildings can survive if the duration is short.

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Old 03-06-2016, 01:41 PM
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I agree, an earthquake can destroy a home, our subs shake our floors, not the same.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:07 PM
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OK, this one is just for fun since I had the main speakers on the tube amp at reference, Note all subs on and not nearfield.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:10 PM
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Ok, this one includes the Aura Shakers and played at reference with the tube amp on the mains. The tube amp is low wattage and does not power the mains like the Acurus solid state amp. The shakers kick some butt, lol.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:13 PM
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I tested a few other seats quickly and the MLP has a lower TR than some of the other seats in the HT. But, it is my favorite for music which is what the system is used for 90% of the time.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:20 PM
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I'm definitely an expert when it comes to earthquakes as I'm virtually surrounded by faults with living my whole life in LA and Bakersfield. What you have to remember is they measure an earthquakes intensity at the epicenter or ground zero. I've been in multitude of 6 and 7's that I've barely felt. I felt a big hit from Northridge quake but felt nothing with the Colinga quake nor either of the quakes last couple weeks(one was 4.2). The VS and VM are dead on wrt to actual quakes. You need to be near the epicenter for the above mentioned by @dominguez1 to suffer home damage or loss. Just something to take into account. And like I said, if theres a natural disaster I'm familiar with its earthquakes.

Another thing. I don't really get to caught up too much in descriptives of how hard my room hits. Dom's spreadsheet does a great job of giving us an idea of how each room performs and feels. We're not doing anything here that anyone else can't accomplish. It takes money, time and space filled with subwoofer stuff. Thats pretty much it. I prefer metering and graphing. It tells me what it sounds like, feels like. So when I had more than twenty friends say My HT simulateS the feel of a real quake, my response was ok, sure, whatever. They hadn't experienced a home theater before. My wife told me, no this is different this time. It feels like the real thing. So I went about testing this out in other parts of the home and outside back patio, even standing outside. She was right, same sensation. My son's friends come over and come running in saying did you fell that. Were having an earthquake as they know nothing of my system. One of my fav evil pranks is that same 6hz 130db blast when unknowing recipients use the rest room. Hilarious at the screams we get. I know, I'm terrible(even did it to my mother in law)but it's awesome fun. So yes, no hyperbole, my room can sim a quake, through movement and/or stimulation of other senses that quakes stim. It would be interesting to compare the Vibration(acceleration) and PSD(velocity) of an earthquake vs subs reproducing a quake.

Lastly, I'm not saying subs are the same as a quake. No Way! Plates slipping a thousandth of an inch have infinite multitudes of more power than any sub system. But, make no mistake, a 6hz blast that can open and close doors in my house, blow out a candle from 6ft away and move walls an inch while the sound wave rolls through my body can sim a quake rather well. I guarantee you it match's a quakes intensity. Difference is my effected zone is a few feet not a hundred miles.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Ok, this one includes the Aura Shakers and played at reference with the tube amp on the mains. The tube amp is low wattage and does not power the mains like the Acurus solid state amp. The shakers kick some butt, lol.
WOW. Thats an eyeopener. They certainly do kick some butt. So the Aura's are giving you that much TR gain? Look at 10hz. Can make a run with TT's only? Very interesting. Good to know. I got four new ones sitting in the garage. I will test those soon. May need to pick up some Crowsons to test.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:44 PM
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I like the shakers. They go below 20 Hz and add to movies like WOW, Transformers Age of Ext., Interstellar, ect. I run them off the avr .1 channel with the subs. I am going to try and move some of the subs closer to increase the TR. I will run one of the TT when I do some more testing. I need to pay attention and not have the tube amp doing reference level playback before something happens to it, lol.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
With the above Gs to Mercalli conversion, I think we can add this to the ULF Card...



What do you guys think? Add it to the ULF Score/Card?

This will give the total picture of what your ULF experience is like.

We still need to vet what content is best to create the VS score (EOT, Sine Waves, etc.), as 5hz and 12.5hz are missing.

Thoughts?
I'll run .1 sines at each frequencies 1hz spread from 5-20hz asap. I like the idea. Using both FR and TR gives us a truer picture of each rooms performance and capability, from the MLP.
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Old 03-06-2016, 05:55 PM
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I can tell you what mines is a 5 Hz-0, lol.
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Old 03-06-2016, 07:37 PM
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The ULF calculator gives me a 45 at 10hz but at 6hz I am much less(30)! The last witch hunter kicked some major butt last night.

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Old 03-07-2016, 09:25 AM
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@3ll3d00d @MKtheater @desertdome or whomever I missed that uses SpecLab. @Kvalsvoll has posted some rather well received test tracks that we can use for testing purposes. You can grab them HERE. Thoughts? Let me know what you think and post the graphs if possible.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:35 AM
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Care should be taken with these test tracks and don't play them for to long.
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Care should be taken with these test tracks and don't play them for to long.
For sure! I haven't ran these yet but if its anything like Soho54's disc I use, it will burn stuff. My room smells like I'm using an arc welder after 3x30sec blasts of 6hz sine. I'm sure the coils are glowing. This is something the EOT clip can't come close to doing.
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Old 03-07-2016, 01:29 PM
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Here is a clip I always use for the low stuff, I posted it earlier. No need to run sine waves as we don't listen to them, run material we watch and how the subs are different. Without knowing I ran this scene 12 dB hot with my IB and when I ran it with my SLLT I was running flat at the crossover. Look at the response on top, that is real world difference between the two. The SLLT gained SPL from 30hz and down.


IB



SLLT



You can see the SLLT is 10 dB down from 90-120hz or running flat. The IB was 10 dB hotter but the low end is higher on the SLLT. Of course now I get phone calls from upstairs about turning down the bass! Dom, you can certainly understand and this coming from the basement across a 4000 square foot room. The bedrooms are 2nd floor opposite side of the theater. I pressurize the bedrooms!

Marantz 7702 Atmos
3 Inuke NU4-6000 amps for all speakers.
Speakers- 7 Behringer B215XL's, 4 212xl's for ceiling speakers.
Front subs 8 SI 18ht ported SLLT powered by Peavy IPR 7500
Rear subs 4 SI 18HT ported SLLT powered by Inuke 6000.
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, this one includes the Aura Shakers and played at reference with the tube amp on the mains. The tube amp is low wattage and does not power the mains like the Acurus solid state amp. The shakers kick some butt, lol.


This is pretty crazy coming from some Aura's...$40 per, correct? The crazy part is the 10hz effect you get. You must have a resonant frequency there in your couch perhaps as 10hz really is out of its passband, correct?....not sure why there's nothing going on at 15hz since this is mechanical shaking??

Still, pulling 1.5G from these is pretty impressive, nonetheless...that's pretty much off the charts from earthquake conversion.

It would be interesting to see what it looks like with just the Aura's on, with no other speakers...did you happen to test that?
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