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post #4411 of 4803 Old 07-25-2016, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
I'm glad you remembered. I could just see me trying to explain to you the things that have been written here.....by YOU!
LOL! I'm glad I did realize that because I might have had a debate with you...er', myself I mean...
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post #4412 of 4803 Old 07-25-2016, 08:03 PM
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My LLT flat equals my sealed 12 dB hot in Spl and even more TR, if I bump the gain on my amps more than 3 dB it is crazy. I get told to turn it down at 6 dB hot all the time. I was never told anything with the IB. My wife keeps telling me she liked my old sub setup better as I did not shake the house as much.
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post #4413 of 4803 Old 07-26-2016, 10:12 PM
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LLT will increase the TR. Due to the low tune, there will be more bandwidth for the development of RG, room gian. If the LLT results in more spl in the passband, this will also add to the TR.
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post #4414 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
My LLT flat equals my sealed 12 dB hot in Spl and even more TR, if I bump the gain on my amps more than 3 dB it is crazy. I get told to turn it down at 6 dB hot all the time. I was never told anything with the IB. My wife keeps telling me she liked my old sub setup better as I did not shake the house as much.
Gotcha. I was thinking you may have gained TR at the same SPL, but you've gained TR and about +12dbSPL@ the same power. I saw your substantial TR gains which pretty match mine going from screen wall to behind the seats. I knew there was a 2 to 1 advantage, Vented to Sealed, but 4 to 1. I looked at LLT during construction of my room but just couldn't overcome the size and worried about losing the single digits.
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post #4415 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 06:59 AM
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My SLLT resulted in boosting the 5-30hz range as my enclosures are massive. The mid bass is actually better because massive enclosures reduce the sensivity in the upper band while increasing the low end. It worked better than I expected!

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post #4416 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Gotcha. I was thinking you may have gained TR at the same SPL, but you've gained TR and about +12dbSPL@ the same power. I saw your substantial TR gains which pretty match mine going from screen wall to behind the seats. I knew there was a 2 to 1 advantage, Vented to Sealed, but 4 to 1. I looked at LLT during construction of my room but just couldn't overcome the size and worried about losing the single digits.
He actually did both: gained TR at the same SPL and SPL at the same power.
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post #4417 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
He actually did both: gained TR at the same SPL and SPL at the same power.
That's what I thought he was saying but I think his latest VS was a max with his new SLLT. So IOW, +12db at the same power level, will give more TR. Is that correct MK or are your TR gains at the same spl as your sealed were running at?
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post #4418 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 07:00 PM
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No, my TRs of my LLT were flat and my IB was 10-12 dB hot! I have not run any hot yet. I have to glue the ports better for that as one shakes out of place all the time when I turn the amp gain up one click on the Inuke. I was running a song at reference today with the subs flat and the Inuke amps on both mains and subs lit up one LED, this was 105 dB music in stereo.
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post #4419 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
No, my TRs of my LLT were flat and my IB was 10-12 dB hot! I have not run any hot yet. I have to glue the ports better for that as one shakes out of place all the time when I turn the amp gain up one click on the Inuke. I was running a song at reference today with the subs flat and the Inuke amps on both mains and subs lit up one LED, this was 105 dB music in stereo.
Oh. So you did increase your TR without increasing your SPL. Interesting. This is the first case, of changing the RG profile of a room, thats been doc'd. I didn't think that was possible but if thats the case, this is a very big deal. Louder is one thing but tactile gains as well changes things. Even in a small room I could find the space for a SLLT especially with only needing a fourth of the subs and more importantly still seeing a TR increase. As long as SQ keeps, this could be it.
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post #4420 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 09:25 PM
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Ok you got me, what is an SLLT. I'm thinking single, large, low tuned. It would be interesting to experience a room hitting the single digits using a sealed system compared to a room with LLT subs hitting around 15 Hz. How much different will the TR be? I'm thinking it will be kinda like two champagnes, one with large bubble and one with smaller bubbles, lol.

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post #4421 of 4803 Old 07-27-2016, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Ok you got me, what is an SLLT. I'm thinking single, large, low tuned. It would be interesting to experience a room hitting the single digits using a sealed system compared to a room with LLT subs hitting around 15 Hz. How much different will the TR be. I'm thinking it will be kinda like two champagnes, one with large bubble and one with smaller bubbles, lol.
I think it's Super Large Low Tuned
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post #4422 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 12:11 AM
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Correct. An IB converted to a super vent, aka, the Volcano.
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post #4423 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Oh. So you did increase your TR without increasing your SPL. Interesting. This is the first case, of changing the RG profile of a room, thats been doc'd. I didn't think that was possible but if thats the case, this is a very big deal. Louder is one thing but tactile gains as well changes things. Even in a small room I could find the space for a SLLT especially with only needing a fourth of the subs and more importantly still seeing a TR increase. As long as SQ keeps, this could be it.
Why do you think his room gain profile changed?

He's getting more TR at the same spl because of the port tune down low (around tune, you get more TR). His RG would have stayed the same.
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post #4424 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 07:20 AM
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At the same power I gained spl because the ports increased the sensitivity around tune. I tuned right where we need boost and much more amp power for a sealed system, I used a port with less power than a LT circuit with more power which allows me to use a simple cheap amp like the Inuke 6000. I used to run all my sealed systems around 10-12 dB hot as I like the bass feel at those levels, I used an LT circuit as well and noticed if I tried to run it hot with the LT the breaker trips on demanding scenes like Lone Survivor. Porting was my solution to watch 12 dB hot with a LTd low end but I had no idea how crazy it would be, I have not reach 12 dB hot yet and things start falling apart, including one port(need to glue it), and my door handle became loose again. Time to secure everything and my projector still shakes as there is nothing I really can do anymore. I just run too high spl for that thing not to move.


My RG is the same, I now have a peak around tune, 5-9hz.

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post #4425 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
My RG is the same, I now have a peak around tune, 5-9hz.
Thanks for the thorough explanation. How's your FR, you getting dips prior to tune? Overall SQ impressions with music/movies? Any disadvantages besides size of cab(house destruction notwithstanding)?
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post #4426 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Why do you think his room gain profile changed?

He's getting more TR at the same spl because of the port tune down low (around tune, you get more TR). His RG would have stayed the same.
If he was was getting more TR at the same SPL than before, his RG profile/ratio has changed. As we all know, this but sealed gives us a 12db roll and vented a 18db. We can't change that nor the room gain issue. So I didn't/don't his RG changed. Actually I was questioning it. As MK stated his RG hasn't changed. He's not getting more TR at the same SPL because of the tune, He's getting more TR due to the SPL gain at the tune. You can't gain TR without a corresponding gain in SPL, not from a sub, that hasn't been moved.

I experimented with the effect to the FR by leaving the room door open various degrees about four years back and I had a huge spike at 6-7hz of 9-12db, in essence doing what MK's done, albeit by a different way. You can feel a tremendous tactile gain along with the obvious SPL gain.
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post #4427 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
If he was was getting more TR at the same SPL than before, his RG profile/ratio has changed. As we all know, this but sealed gives us a 12db roll and vented a 18db. We can't change that nor the room gain issue. So I didn't/don't his RG changed. Actually I was questioning it. As MK stated his RG hasn't changed. He's not getting more TR at the same SPL because of the tune, He's getting more TR due to the SPL gain at the tune. You can't gain TR without a corresponding gain in SPL, not from a sub, that hasn't been moved.

I experimented with the effect to the FR by leaving the room door open various degrees about four years back and I had a huge spike at 6-7hz of 9-12db, in essence doing what MK's done, albeit by a different way. You can feel a tremendous tactile gain along with the obvious SPL gain.

Yes, this is it, spl rules the day! The key from subs is to get spl from all frequencies so you get increased TR as well. You can easily feel much more as you turn up the gain and I can actually feel and hear 10hz stuff when loud.


Here are a couple sweeps from different positions or different seats.








Like the DTS-10s I owned when it hits it feels different than sealed because I am not relying solely on room gain for spl, the subs are actually reproducing bass with room gain and the effect is quite different. The room gain spl is pressure and the sub causes shaking and air movement so the ported subs has it all! I really like this effect better. Again, as long as I am getting full bandwidth I like ported better.


Dom, do you remember the experiment we did on concrete between my IB hot vs IB flat with LT? We both preferred the hot presentation because the Mid bass is hot as well. I could not run hot and LT because it required too much power from the breaker and tripped(20 amp). Well, this SLLT solves that! Not to mention the wooden riser and near field subs to boot.

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post #4428 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
You can't gain TR without a corresponding gain in SPL, not from a sub, that hasn't been moved.
You guys are totally losing me here. The above has been shown in at least 4 cases that at tune ported subs have more TR with the SAME spl, same position.

This has been summarized here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2434250-nearfield-ported-mbm-increased-mid-bass-tactile-response.html#post43534946

Said another way:

A 15hz sine wave produced by a sealed sub at 105db will have the same room gain as a 15hz sine wave produced by a ported sub at 105db in the same position.

However, its been shown multiple times that the ported sub around tune at the same spl at the same position produced more TR.

Room gain kept constant, spl kept constant, position kept constant, but more TR with the ported sub.
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post #4429 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
You guys are totally losing me here. The above has been shown in at least 4 cases that at tune ported subs have more TR with the SAME spl, same position.

This has been summarized here:

Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response

Said another way:

A 15hz sine wave produced by a sealed sub at 105db will have the same room gain as a 15hz sine wave produced by a ported sub at 105db in the same position.

However, its been shown multiple times that the ported sub around tune at the same spl at the same position produced more TR.

Room gain kept constant, spl kept constant, position kept constant, but more TR with the ported sub.
With MK's, w ere talking the same sub, amp, signal chain here but with different alignments. First you need to take a 50 or 60hz LFE sine to set both units to 85db, regardless if your using different subs, alignments or as in your case both. You need to take a narrowband sine@tune SPL reading i.e., Like my 6hz 0.1LFE CH only sine I always to test everything with. You used the Mean scale from the reading taking that are posted on the first page. Is that number a log or linear measurement? We need to remeasure this using VS and OM. MK didn't gain TR without his SPL being raised in that region. I know his SPL didn't change above the sealed alignments knee but it did most certainly after. His roll, even with an IB, was still probably up around 25-30hz. You put a wideband sweep on both and they will measure the same as it can't differentiate frequency. I've seen 15hz sines that have output several octaves above that contaminate SPL readings. That 9-12db that MK has gained is real SPL. Both speaker have the same loudness above the sealed turn but the SLLT rolls much less until the point below tune and it doesn't really matter after that. MK is gaining 6hz TR because of his 6hz SPL has increased accordingly. Even the smallest of FR changes can make a big difference in TR. We can test this very easily and I'll eat crow if I'm wrong.
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post #4430 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 02:36 PM
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I did not EQ my subs flat because that peak down low causes lots of shake when running flat. Many people run their bass hot because they want that low end to be felt more and this includes the house curve. My ported subs being tuned so low created this naturally without using extra power which allows me to do really do anything. If I were to say the biggest improvements to my system recently were has to be all matching speakers, Atmos, and changing to SLLT. My friends who love my subs systems actually have said why, this is too crazy. Again, it is very hard to run my subs hot because they already are down low. Having said this, Dom you maybe correct because I tested my IB VS while running the LFE channel 10-12 dB hot and the SLLT was flat which makes my 5-20hz 10-12 dB hot or the same spl and my VS was greater with the SLLT.
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post #4431 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 02:52 PM
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My twin LLT's were pretty close to what I get (deep bass) now with over twelve sealed 18's.

Pretty crazy.
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post #4432 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 03:27 PM
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My twin LLT's were pretty close to what I get (deep bass) now with over twelve sealed 18's.

Pretty crazy.
I would have never thought it would be this different because I failed miserably the first time but that was with true IB drivers and porting them just made them have less bass. I like being flat to single digits but doing it with real subs is a big difference rather than all gain from the room.

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post #4433 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 03:34 PM
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It doesn't really surprise me at all.

Ficar products are terrible.
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post #4434 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 04:15 PM
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I did not EQ my subs flat because that peak down low causes lots of shake when running flat. Many people run their bass hot because they want that low end to be felt more and this includes the house curve. My ported subs being tuned so low created this naturally without using extra power which allows me to do really do anything. If I were to say the biggest improvements to my system recently were has to be all matching speakers, Atmos, and changing to SLLT. My friends who love my subs systems actually have said why, this is too crazy. Again, it is very hard to run my subs hot because they already are down low. Having said this, Dom you maybe correct because I tested my IB VS while running the LFE channel 10-12 dB hot and the SLLT was flat which makes my 5-20hz 10-12 dB hot or the same spl and my VS was greater with the SLLT.
If I was just starting out, knowing this, I would have to give serious, serious consideration to this. Granted were not talking about a 6db gain from a box twice as big as the sealed equivalent but 10-12db is nuts. Your not the first guy I heard do this with similar gains(Not comes to mind). I sure would like to see the FR/TR graphs with the ports open then closed.
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post #4435 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
With MK's, w ere talking the same sub, amp, signal chain here but with different alignments. First you need to take a 50 or 60hz LFE sine to set both units to 85db, regardless if your using different subs, alignments or as in your case both. You need to take a narrowband sine@tune SPL reading i.e., Like my 6hz 0.1LFE CH only sine I always to test everything with. You used the Mean scale from the reading taking that are posted on the first page. Is that number a log or linear measurement? We need to remeasure this using VS and OM.
I'm sure MK calibrated his two configurations appropriately, but your right I assumed that he did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
MK didn't gain TR without his SPL being raised in that region. I know his SPL didn't change above the sealed alignments knee but it did most certainly after. His roll, even with an IB, was still probably up around 25-30hz. You put a wideband sweep on both and they will measure the same as it can't differentiate frequency. I've seen 15hz sines that have output several octaves above that contaminate SPL readings. That 9-12db that MK has gained is real SPL. Both speaker have the same loudness above the sealed turn but the SLLT rolls much less until the point below tune and it doesn't really matter after that. MK is gaining 6hz TR because of his 6hz SPL has increased accordingly. Even the smallest of FR changes can make a big difference in TR. We can test this very easily and I'll eat crow if I'm wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Having said this, Dom you maybe correct because I tested my IB VS while running the LFE channel 10-12 dB hot and the SLLT was flat which makes my 5-20hz 10-12 dB hot or the same spl and my VS was greater with the SLLT.
I'm pretty sure he posted his sweeps when he showed his VS data. The FR were very similar. And as MK states above, he ran his IB 10-12db hot, and his SLLT was flat, but yet the VS measured more TR. If you're questioning his test methodology, that's one thing. But I believe MK's test was accurate enough given the HUGE swing in TR combined with the other evidence we've collected on ported vs sealed to believe it is directionally correct.

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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
My twin LLT's were pretty close to what I get (deep bass) now with over twelve sealed 18's.

Pretty crazy.
Anecdotal, but same theme.

What I think you're trying to say is that a sub's native response drives the TR, and that because of the ported subs native response has higher SPL around tune, it will naturally have more TR around tune....BUT, because the sealed native response starts to roll of much higher, we EQ the sealed native response to look like the ported native response (in MK's case, because it is tuned so low).

So now you have a ported subs native response and a sealed subs native response (+eq) looking the same (same SPL)....but the ported sub still provides more TR.

And then, in MK's case, he even ran his sealed 10-12db hotter, and the ported flat, and the ported TR was still more.

I've shown this with my test with my sealed 21 vs the FV15HP, @derrickdj1 has shown this with his sealed Marty vs his ported marty, and then I demonstrated this again with the FV15HP vs the 1200D. Same SPL, same distance, more TR around tune.

You're killin' me @coolrda , I thought you were drinking the coolaid this whole time!

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post #4436 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 05:29 PM
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I'm on board with that assessment, Dom.
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post #4437 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 08:16 PM
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@dominguez1

I still bitter over losing my 5hz card. Actually, I found a good recipe for Crow online and I wanted to give a go.

In all seriousness though, there's no question that I trust all of you guys posting here and I hold your data in high regard. Still, I constantly check myself to make sure it stays above board. Your MBM thread shows everyone data. Taking MK's I clearly see his extension with the SLLT and his previous IB setup. They both follow the simulated FR of their respective alignments. Remember everyone, VS it brutally honest of what your systems doing regardless of ROOM GAIN. It doesn't take that into account. Omnimic can't do that. REW can't. SpecLab can't. They're all mic based measurement systems. The can accurately measure systems in an outdoor GP environment but are easily fooled in doors. You take both systems outside and I guarantee you the SLLT has a SPL advantage. I get that were talking in doors though. Just to clarify, the RG I'm talking about is the ULF variety and not the room modes which are also a type of room gain/reinforcement.

In MK's case you have an ideal measurement platform. Maybe there some cancellation null with his SPL at 10hz. Nothing has been changed or moved or replaced. Only vented vs sealed. All I'm simply saying is measure them uneq'd, vented then sealed. I've asked Derrick to retest his as well. Point is we're much further along as well as being more polished at this. This is a big deal. I would like FR's and VS's. And the SPL of each freq with EOT. From all of us. Just record with your phone if you can't get it all down.

Take your MBM graph for instance. If I measure wideband I would get no SPL gain by adding your MBM but clearly there's a considerable bump, up to 10db. And it starts much lower than expected @25hz. Good job blending btw. Point is your system bumps harder because of the 1200D but also because of the raised SPL. If you look back here at your findings on Post 5. The spectrums don't match what the graph header shows. Ones 97db and others are off. The manual even says not to use spectrum to take FR readings. That's why SPL is lower than spectrum. Now I know you probably just clipped the wrong pic, I've done it a ton myself. Especially with the ton of data, pics, vids, you were presenting. It would take me weeks to write that post. So I can appreciate what you went through. My intent is not to question or frustrate at all. If it was taken that way, my apologies. I just want to make sure all our ducks are in a row before preceding. I believe we have solid data and have proved some interesting things here. But, this is coming fast and furious the last few months and we have so many changes and gobs of new data and it's good to double check and recheck to be sure.

Last edited by coolrda; 07-28-2016 at 11:36 PM.
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post #4438 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 10:01 PM
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So MK's SLLT system compared to the old sealed system requires less amp power because he doesn't have to boost the low end (it doesn't have the natural rolloff like the sealed) AND because of the low port tune is getting more TR in that region even when the sealed system was EQed 10-12db hotter, correct? I do agree that ported has stronger TR around port tune. I've experienced a little bit of this on my nearfield (behind the seats) ported FV vs sealed 18" at around 12-16hz with the bottom end raised to similar levels. To get about the same TR I have to boost a bit higher. Also more room gain usually means less TR but more SPL right? I basically have no room gain, at least on my subs right behind me which are pretty much the ones responsible for the majority of TR in my room.
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post #4439 of 4803 Old 07-28-2016, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
So MK's SLLT system compared to the old sealed system requires less amp power because he doesn't have to boost the low end (it doesn't have the natural rolloff like the sealed) AND because of the low port tune is getting more TR in that region even when the sealed system was EQed 10-12db hotter, correct? I do agree that ported has stronger TR around port tune. I've experienced a little bit of this on my nearfield (behind the seats) ported FV vs sealed 18" at around 12-16hz with the bottom end raised to similar levels. To get about the same TR I have to boost a bit higher. Also more room gain usually means less TR but more SPL right? I basically have no room gain, at least on my subs right behind me which are pretty much the ones responsible for the majority of TR in my room.
That's correct. I modeled an LLT awhile back. There is about a 12db peak difference. I didn't see a big difference between my .65qtc and an IB. But you put the HT18 in a big cab and vent it and there is a big gain and it'll do some damage.

A ported sub will typically HPF your RG away. You have natural rolloff due to alignment then an hpf added. You'll always have more TR with a ported, even with a high tune.

RG and SPL part ways at the start point. A properly built DBA uses phase to eliminate RG. Using nearfield placement, also raises TR with no change to ULF SPL, in a sealed room. MA's and TT's work due no SPL added system.

Last edited by coolrda; 07-28-2016 at 11:39 PM.
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post #4440 of 4803 Old 07-29-2016, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
So MK's SLLT system compared to the old sealed system requires less amp power because he doesn't have to boost the low end (it doesn't have the natural rolloff like the sealed) AND because of the low port tune is getting more TR in that region even when the sealed system was EQed 10-12db hotter, correct? I do agree that ported has stronger TR around port tune. I've experienced a little bit of this on my nearfield (behind the seats) ported FV vs sealed 18" at around 12-16hz with the bottom end raised to similar levels. To get about the same TR I have to boost a bit higher. Also more room gain usually means less TR but more SPL right? I basically have no room gain, at least on my subs right behind me which are pretty much the ones responsible for the majority of TR in my room.
The room gain aspect is a little more complicated and what more RG means is the following: Some waves of sound combine constructively which increases the spl. Some frequencies are affected more than others. Due to the room, when there is constructive combining of sound waves, there will also be some destructive wave occurring usually somewhere higher in the sub pass-band, hence the notch in the FR.

I don't think we can always say the more RG - the less TR. With LLT subs, there is no use of a hpf form my understanding. This means the massive drop of a 4th order roll-off is avoided. This should also result in increase spl and TR. Roll-off = distortion and a weakening of the subs linear response. The constructive combining of sound waves from the back wall in the lower pass band means the RG and TR are related from my understanding. RG is not a consistent metric in the ULF evaluation. Over all phase of the response can have a major impact on the TR.

Last edited by derrickdj1; 07-29-2016 at 01:19 AM.
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