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post #4501 of 4726 Old 08-03-2016, 03:38 PM
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My front 8 drivers are running off one amp channel and the back 4 drivers are running off the other amp channel. I guess I can just plug the back subs and test.

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post #4502 of 4726 Old 08-03-2016, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Couple of quick questions. Should we be using VS data, in a comparison like this, that's been taken more than 4 months apart? Were the FR taken at the same time/date as the VS? Why is the graph offset 20db when your showing a +10db scale?
Ideally no, but doesn't mean its not valid and directionally correct given the other tests/evidence performed by dj and I in a more controlled manner.

Not sure I understand your question with the 20db offset. It's explained in my original post.
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post #4503 of 4726 Old 08-03-2016, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
My front 8 drivers are running off one amp channel and the back 4 drivers are running off the other amp channel. I guess I can just plug the back subs and test.
I'm wondering if the reason SPL doesn't increase as much as your TR is due to TA cancellations. Try it with front alone, then both.
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post #4504 of 4726 Old 08-03-2016, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Ideally no, but doesn't mean its not valid and directionally correct given the other tests/evidence performed by dj and I in a more controlled manner.

Not sure I understand your question with the 20db offset. It's explained in my original post.
That why we need to rerun these tests. It's not clear to me so how can a casual poster hope to follow this. I'm guessing the SLLT is cal'd to 85db and the IB to 95db due to the IB being +10db hot. I follow the top overlay with the 10db offset. The bottom though has an additional 10db of offset showing 20db of total offset.
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post #4505 of 4726 Old 08-04-2016, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
That why we need to rerun these tests. It's not clear to me so how can a casual poster hope to follow this. I'm guessing the SLLT is cal'd to 85db and the IB to 95db due to the IB being +10db hot. I follow the top overlay with the 10db offset. The bottom though has an additional 10db of offset showing 20db of total offset.
AIUI he measured one at 85 and the other at 95 so that is one 10dB offset and then he bumped the IB by 10dB to try to get more feel out of it.
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post #4506 of 4726 Old 08-04-2016, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
That why we need to rerun these tests. It's not clear to me so how can a casual poster hope to follow this.
I'm not sure how I can make it more clear than the below?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Below is your IB Response superimposed over your ported response. They were superimposed so that the 85db and 95db lines were matched as that is the calibration point of each as you mention above.





You'll notice here that they are within 2db or so at 10hz. Remember, we are looking at 10hz because that is the frequency in consideration to test the hypothesis that around tune, ported produces more TR. Mk's IB ported setup is tuned to 7hz.

However, when MK took readings with the VibSensor, he took the reading for his sealed IB running 10db hot. When he did the ported reading with VS, he ran flat.

In the below graph, I increased the IB by 10db to compensate for running his IB hot.





As you can see, MK was running 8db hot (once you calibrate the two responses) when comparing FRs. Yet the Vibsensor shows drastic differences in the TR at 10hz...18db difference!

More evidence that TR can be increased without an associated increase in SPL, and that around port tune, ported subs produce more TR as compared to sealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
AIUI he measured one at 85 and the other at 95 so that is one 10dB offset and then he bumped the IB by 10dB to try to get more feel out of it.
^^^this.

I took the below two responses and just superimposed them. Nothing more straightforward than that.

Perhaps you can circle the area in the above summary graph that's confusing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I will post my data again. VS, response, and spectrum.


IB Response(low end about 5 dB hot compared to crossover)






Now here is the same data running the SLLT flat at crossover.


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post #4507 of 4726 Old 08-04-2016, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
I'm not sure how I can make it more clear than the below?





^^^this.

I took the below two responses and just superimposed them. Nothing more straightforward than that.

Perhaps you can circle the area in the above summary graph that's confusing?
Ok, gotcha. I was thinking the SSLT was set to 85db and the IB was set to 95db and that this was the +10db hot. But he actually set the IB at 95db plus ran another +10db and thats why the 20db offset. Is that correct? So the IB was 20db above the SLLT?

There's no question on the VS graphs because they overlay perfectly. I don't care if he took those 4 months ago or 4 years, you can easily see his 18db gain in TR. Those two were clearly taken at the same level so i wasn't understanding why the FR's need offsetting if taken at the same time as the VS. When I move my mike a few feet I get as much difference as between these graphs. It can be difficult taking FR's even if you move the mic a little. I don't expect any difference by retesting using the new method, only more precise data and easier to follow.
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post #4508 of 4726 Old 08-04-2016, 08:51 AM
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Those were just sweeps for calibration purposes to show frequency. I am not sure even if the mic is accurate down low. My spl meter was tested to be accurate with other mics and it showed a different response for the IB. I will take a sweep of the SLLT with it once the HDMI cable comes in tomorrow. Again, the levels are irrelevant to each other, they were to see the response as compared to the crossover and how the ports changed the response.

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post #4509 of 4726 Old 08-04-2016, 03:20 PM
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Cable just came in, running sweeps tonight.
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post #4510 of 4726 Old 08-05-2016, 11:57 AM
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Remind again why we should build/buy sealed? It's tighter and goes deeper in a smaller box? I don't know. It's always good to re-evaluate every so often but I'm seeing less and less reason to go sealed. This is coming from a pro-closed box guy. I'm seeing less and less pro's. Maybe it because driver/amp performance has increased so much recently or now we have new measurement devices we didn't have before. What's the point if we have to use multiples of drivers. We're not talking doubling any more, it's more like 4-8x's.

Consider this. MK got an 18db ULFTR gain. At 3-6db I'm giving it serious thought, but at 18db@10hz. I'll rebuild my screen wall, if not my whole theater. To put this in prospective, in MK's case that's 8x increase to his 12x18's array. That doesn't take into account power for them and all the complexity getting those setup. If fact, if using TT's and MA's to fill in the bottom, we don't even need a tune as low as MK's. I still think we need 3-4 subs placed properly as it flattens FR.
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post #4511 of 4726 Old 08-05-2016, 02:39 PM
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the difference is that port bandwidth is fundamentally limited and that the box required to support a low tune is massive, I mean MK has ported an IB to achieve his results hasn't he?? suffice to say this isn't not an option open to many people!

there's also the question of PR which we can't measure atm, does ported or sealed produce more on that front?

why do you need a low tuned ported sub btw if you have an MA?
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post #4512 of 4726 Old 08-05-2016, 02:40 PM
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in other news, I've managed to pick up another UXL-18 2nd hand and am going to design/build a ported sub to replace my current dual infinity 1260w sealed NF. I figure I need to find out what this ported gives greater TR fuss is all about
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post #4513 of 4726 Old 08-05-2016, 03:01 PM
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I never got to measuring last night as we had company stay over until midnight. I only ported the IB because I could, I would not trade my old ported at 13hz for my recent IB as I like the weight and pressure from the full bandwidth system. However, Porting the IB is another level as it requires less power and boosts right where most sealed systems start to roll off! I can really say low end from real subs and not room gain makes a big difference. I never had a real IB but an enclosed a baffle wall and sealed it from the front 3 speakers. It just made sense to at least try in my situation.

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post #4514 of 4726 Old 08-05-2016, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
the difference is that port bandwidth is fundamentally limited and that the box required to support a low tune is massive, I mean MK has ported an IB to achieve his results hasn't he?? suffice to say this isn't not an option open to many people!

there's also the question of PR which we can't measure atm, does ported or sealed produce more on that front?

why do you need a low tuned ported sub btw if you have an MA?
I don't need it. I'm very happy with mine now. Just find the 18db TR gain as something others could seriously consider if contemplating a ULF upgrade.
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post #4515 of 4726 Old 08-05-2016, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
the difference is that port bandwidth is fundamentally limited and that the box required to support a low tune is massive, I mean MK has ported an IB to achieve his results hasn't he?? suffice to say this isn't not an option open to many people!

there's also the question of PR which we can't measure atm, does ported or sealed produce more on that front?

why do you need a low tuned ported sub btw if you have an MA?
PR (Pressure Response or the impact that Sound Intensity has directly on your body; not through another object) is the primary reason why to use a sub vs an MA. MAs will never produce PR, only TR (Tactile Response; vibration of objects touching your body).

Last edited by dominguez1; 08-05-2016 at 07:26 PM.
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post #4516 of 4726 Old 08-05-2016, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
in other news, I've managed to pick up another UXL-18 2nd hand and am going to design/build a ported sub to replace my current dual infinity 1260w sealed NF. I figure I need to find out what this ported gives greater TR fuss is all about
OK, we will meet you over in the DIY section to check out your carpentry skills, lol.
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post #4517 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
PR (Pressure Response or the impact that Sound Intensity has directly on your body; not through another object) is the primary reason why to use a sub vs an MA. MAs will never produce PR, only TR (Tactile Response; vibration of objects touching your body).
I didn't think we could measure PR?

Anyway if full bandwidth PR is important then that is an argument for sealed isn't it? (given that low tune ported is, for most people, infeasibly large)

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post #4518 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I didn't think we could measure PR?

Anyway if full bandwidth PR is important then that is an argument for sealed isn't it? (given that low tune ported is, for most people, infeasibly large)
Exactly!

PR ULF provides the pressure our ears feel, it provides the weight of an explosion, and the uneasy feeling during tense scenes.

PR LF provides that kick in the chest/midbass slam. It creates that feeling of your heart racing and that shortness of breath at times.

PR provides the realism to the content. The more your ht is capable of full bandwidth, the more you will achieve this, IMO.

Can it be measured? Yes, with Sound Intensity meters and pvl meters.

Can we do it? If we had those tools... Otherwise (in absense of those tools), we might be able to infer it by a combination of high spl capability (ULF card), FR, TR, and proximity of subs to the listening position.
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post #4519 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
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I didn't think we could measure PR?
Well.....with dual array, I've found some interesting things playing around with the OM distortion function while moving the mic.

Quote:
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Anyway if full bandwidth PR is important then that is an argument for sealed isn't it? (given that low tune ported is, for most people, infeasibly large)
Correct.
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post #4520 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 10:13 AM
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post #4521 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
in other news, I've managed to pick up another UXL-18 2nd hand and am going to design/build a ported sub to replace my current dual infinity 1260w sealed NF. I figure I need to find out what this ported gives greater TR fuss is all about
I know where 2 more barely used uxl18s are... Pm if interested.

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Today I had some time to tested the sealed Bum Buster VS vented. It is not perfect as can be seen by the FR. The sealed had a better low end VS slightly higher spl for the venter 20 Hz and up. This was as close as I could get the two alignments.

It should be noted that the vented testing had a major disadvantage on the low end over a considerable range included in the Eto clip. Correlate the peak raw and resonance with both graphs in the data in the next few post.

Eot clip played at -15 MV for all testing.
iphone 6 with 10 lb weight on phone for testing
sub location- nearfield behing MLP
FR done with Omnimic
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post #4523 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 01:19 PM
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Vented VS data:
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Sealed VS data:
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The vented testing showed more movement in the Z plane. This is consistent with the nearfield position of the sub behind the MLP. The activity in the X and Y planes is obscured in the vented VS graphs due to the heavy blue in the Z plane. The resonance of the sealed extended down to 15 Hz compared to 20 for the vented testing. This is consistent with the two alignments.

Peak raw Z values of 1.72 vented VS 1.31 sealed. Are these differences of vented VS sealed significant enough to support the hypothesis that vented produce more TR than sealed at equivalent spl.? Sample size is to small to give P values. Dom and coolrda can do some overlays and calculate the max decibel difference for discussion. It should be interesting to see what MK's further testing of this hypothesis shows.
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post #4526 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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post #4527 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
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OK, we will meet you over in the DIY section to check out your carpentry skills, lol.
what better excuse to buy a new saw than building a big sub Ported NF UXL-18 Build
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post #4528 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Today I had some time to tested the sealed Bum Buster VS vented. It is not perfect as can be seen by the FR. The sealed had a better low end VS slightly higher spl for the venter 20 Hz and up. This was as close as I could get the two alignments.

It should be noted that the vented testing had a major disadvantage on the low end over a considerable range included in the Eto clip. Correlate the peak raw and resonance with both graphs in the data in the next few post.

Eot clip played at -15 MV for all testing.
iphone 6 with 10 lb weight on phone for testing
sub location- nearfield behing MLP
FR done with Omnimic
Nice. I'd like to see the sealed graphed to 5hz though. Then overlay both on same graph. I take it the blue line is just because the mic is plugged in. You can save those, unplug the mic then reload all of those. You prolly know that, though.

What's the deal with the VS data. Your not the first I've seen with this X axis dominate. At first I thought you changed phone orientation but the numerical data says otherwise. Numerical and Graphical aren't matching up? Somethings glitchy. Are you use VS 2.0.0?
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post #4529 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Your Z plane looks odd for the vented...what's the tune? You are showing a TON of TR 10hz and below...
both vented and sealed have an odd, and very strong, spike at the start of the measurement. Perhaps something knocked the phone at the start of the measurement? I think that renders the measurement void tbh as you just don't know what is in there.
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post #4530 of 4726 Old 08-06-2016, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Your Z plane looks odd for the vented...what's the tune? You are showing a TON of TR 10hz and below...
Ha, good catch. Even weirder look at the Numerical v Graphical. Something amiss huh?
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