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post #4771 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 03:13 PM
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post #4772 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Guys,

I am new to this Thread. I just read it from page 1 to here. Slightly bewildered to put it bluntly. If anyone would be so kind to help me calculate my numbers, I would be very appreciative.

My Cubic Foot calculations (taken from attachment):

Family Room
25'-10" x 15'-2" x 11' = 4310 Ft3.

Dining Room
12'-7" x 12'-4" x 9'-5" = 1461 Ft3.

Kitchen
12'-11" x 13'-8" x 9'-5" = 1662 Ft3.

Foyer
5'-4" x 12'-8" x 9'-5" = 636 Ft3.

Total = 8.069 Ft3.

Attachment 2017809

I have two JTR Captivators 2400 ULFs coming. I am not certain about a few fields in the spreadsheet. So I was looking for help from anyone generous enough to provide assistance. The Home Theatre is in the Family Room. I added grey rectangles to indicate sub placement and two black diamonds to indicate MLP(s). MLPs are about 6-8 feet from Subs.

Love this thread, but I am a green as they come with regard to the depth and breath of this conversation. Playing catch up for a while I surmise.
Here is your ULF card with the 2400s:





And here is your ULF card with the 4000s:





I RARELY say this... but in your setup, either one is probably way too much for that multipurpose space.

With that open space, literally everything is going to be shaking that's not bolted down (picture frames, glasses, etc.)...if that occurs, you won't be able to enjoy the experience if you can hear rattles everywhere...not to mention the high probability of things "walking", and then breaking.

In that setup, I'd probably prioritize WAF and get some Tactile Transducers like the crowsons for your couch.

If the above is not an issue, and you can spend the $$$, I would definitely go for the 4000. You will never ask yourself the "what if" question!
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post #4773 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Dom, you should update the calculator to include the new JTR offerings. Jeff has numbers comparing the subs on data-bass to get a good estimate.
Done! V19.3 available!

JTR subs should be up to date.

Rythmik FV18 and FV25HP estimates there.

ZOD MAUL

@basshead81 , care to let me know the PSA new additions and your estimates? I will add them as well.

***Way behind on all this stuff. I hope to take this to ULF Thread 2.0 that will include TR and Intensity as part of the card. The idea for 2.0 is to try and capture the ENTIRE LFE experience...stay tuned.
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post #4774 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Nice! Had to look it up, from RE Audio I assume? All I ever see is UM and SI mentioned for DIY, though I don't frequent those forums...yet. Those are some sick looking drivers to hide in a box!

The xxx ported was measured on data-bass and in this ULF chart. I am just going to push the numbers to 10hz rather than 12hz with the lower tune and bigger box. They are going in my wall behind the screen.

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post #4775 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Done! V19.3 available!

JTR subs should be up to date.

Rythmik FV18 and FV25HP estimates there.

ZOD MAUL

@basshead81 , care to let me know the PSA new additions and your estimates? I will add them as well.

***Way behind on all this stuff. I hope to take this to ULF Thread 2.0 that will include TR and Intensity as part of the card. The idea for 2.0 is to try and capture the ENTIRE LFE experience...stay tuned.

Nice! I am removing my giant boxes in the rear and putting more seating back there with shakers on my wood platform. I am going with 4 REXXX ported 10hz tuned subs in front.

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post #4776 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Nice! I am removing my giant boxes in the rear and putting more seating back there with shakers on my wood platform. I am going with 4 REXXX ported 10hz tuned subs in front.
You're sacrificing nearfield Intensity (formerly known as PR) for additional seating?

Ummm, who are you and what have you done with MK?

The XXX's should produce insane 10hz'ish SPL...how much more insane than your last setup?
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post #4777 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 04:46 PM
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Still in building process. I am building line arrays for speakers and I may make them full range as well. I get more PR than I can stand already so I am getting more TR to go with PR and FR.
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post #4778 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 04:47 PM
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Oh, seating in the rear where the PR sand TR is already nuts.
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post #4779 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Done! V19.3 available!

JTR subs should be up to date.

Rythmik FV18 and FV25HP estimates there.

ZOD MAUL

@basshead81 , care to let me know the PSA new additions and your estimates? I will add them as well.

***Way behind on all this stuff. I hope to take this to ULF Thread 2.0 that will include TR and Intensity as part of the card. The idea for 2.0 is to try and capture the ENTIRE LFE experience...stay tuned.
3db gain below 30hz for all new 18" 01 series subs.
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post #4780 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Did this happen???
The 24s did not happen. Most likely the 18s will, its just when I get a free weekend to go get them.
While I would love to have a pair of 24s, I really struggled to find the space for them along with several other 18s.
It would have been awesome, but at quite a bit of relative cost.

_____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____
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Subwooferage : Dual UM-18s/6 SI HT18s
Born in 1995 and still continuing my HT journey
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post #4781 of 4951 Old 03-10-2017, 11:32 PM
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I'm a party popper. An end point needs to be defined. Hearing loss and excessive volume is not what this thread is meant to be IMHO. Tinnitus and more hearing loss is serious business. More is better but, only to a certain point. Money can be spent on other aspect of the HT. Once you can hit X db. there is no need to go further. Now comes the rotten tomatoes. I can take it.
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post #4782 of 4951 Old 03-11-2017, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
I'm a party popper. An end point needs to be defined. Hearing loss and excessive volume is not what this thread is meant to be IMHO. Tinnitus and more hearing loss is serious business. More is better but, only to a certain point. Money can be spent on other aspect of the HT. Once you can hit X db. there is no need to go further. Now comes the rotten tomatoes. I can take it.
I can't decide if you are a firecracker, or a wet blanket.

FWIW, though, I do think that what started out as a way to compare audio systems has inevitably turned into a competition with respect to scores. In my mind, I have compared it to building custom cars, with more and more extravagant horsepower and torque ratings. Whether those cars are ever actually driven to their limits would depend on the individual, and there would be an element of personal risk involved.

This whole HT hobby sometimes takes some weird twists, and this is one is no weirder that many others. I find it very interesting to see what others are doing, with respect to bass. But I am also very conscious of my personal limits with respect to both total SPL, and even low frequency SPL. I think that, as with every other human attribute, we have neurological differences that make some of us better able to tolerate extremes of whatever. Whether those extremes will result in permanent damage is a question that probably needs to be raised from time-to-time. I would imagine that most of the people on this thread still want to be able to enjoy quality audio in another 20 or 30 years.

But, I have been curious whether most of the people building really extravagant bass systems are also listening regularly at extravagant volumes? Or, as with similar auto hobbies, is this something that only gets fully unleashed on special occasions, or for demonstration purposes?

Regards,
Mike
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post #4783 of 4951 Old 03-11-2017, 05:26 AM
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Dom,

Thank you for the generous use of your time. Awesome result and I am MORE than happy with the 2400's. Like you said, it is a Multi-use setup and tradeoffs are in the mix. I am happily Married for over 34 years and wish to remain so!

Your advice about shaking and rattling have been noted. We will begin preparations and then do a through rattle test. Thanks for the forewarning and for completing the Score Sheet. I am pretty happy about the scores and hope that translates to many Smiles in the future.

You are aware that many of you in here need help right? Not to mention just hearing loss, I think the excessive Bass may be linked to obsessive compulsion for more excessive Bass leading to more hearing loss. Its an ugly cycle that can only be broken by an empty Checking account and Divorce Court. Even your Dog will leave you in the end!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Here is your ULF card with the 2400s:





And here is your ULF card with the 4000s:





I RARELY say this... but in your setup, either one is probably way too much for that multipurpose space.

With that open space, literally everything is going to be shaking that's not bolted down (picture frames, glasses, etc.)...if that occurs, you won't be able to enjoy the experience if you can hear rattles everywhere...not to mention the high probability of things "walking", and then breaking.

In that setup, I'd probably prioritize WAF and get some Tactile Transducers like the crowsons for your couch.

If the above is not an issue, and you can spend the $$$, I would definitely go for the 4000. You will never ask yourself the "what if" question!

Regards,
Adamg

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post #4784 of 4951 Old 03-11-2017, 02:02 PM
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I'm sure there are many people in this thread lusting after the JTR 4000 ULF. I am lucky enough to have the one Jeff left in KC for a couple weeks.

Edge of Tomorrow Intro. Thought it would be fun to see some drivers moving on ULF content.

I think the sweeps are 30, 25, 20, 15, and 10.

This was at reference and the subs around 10 db hot. I also did a test while sitting about 1 foot in front of the drivers and it was a little more pressure than my ears were used to. The wind was surprising from the ports.




The blanket did get blown off the chair the next scene.
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post #4785 of 4951 Old 03-11-2017, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I can't decide if you are a firecracker, or a wet blanket.

FWIW, though, I do think that what started out as a way to compare audio systems has inevitably turned into a competition with respect to scores. In my mind, I have compared it to building custom cars, with more and more extravagant horsepower and torque ratings. Whether those cars are ever actually driven to their limits would depend on the individual, and there would be an element of personal risk involved.

This whole HT hobby sometimes takes some weird twists, and this is one is no weirder that many others. I find it very interesting to see what others are doing, with respect to bass. But I am also very conscious of my personal limits with respect to both total SPL, and even low frequency SPL. I think that, as with every other human attribute, we have neurological differences that make some of us better able to tolerate extremes of whatever. Whether those extremes will result in permanent damage is a question that probably needs to be raised from time-to-time. I would imagine that most of the people on this thread still want to be able to enjoy quality audio in another 20 or 30 years.

But, I have been curious whether most of the people building really extravagant bass systems are also listening regularly at extravagant volumes? Or, as with similar auto hobbies, is this something that only gets fully unleashed on special occasions, or for demonstration purposes?

Regards,
Mike

I can't speak for others but, no. I don't listen to my system at max levels. I have had people over and a local GTG and people have asked me to turn it down. Having the capability is one thing and doing it on an everyday level is another. I had a bout of tinnitus for several months and that opened up my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I can do reference without any problems but, exceeding reference has a cost.
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post #4786 of 4951 Old 03-11-2017, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
I can't speak for others but, no. I don't listen to my system at max levels. I have had people over and a local GTG and people have asked me to turn it down. Having the capability is one thing and doing it on an everyday level is another. I had a bout of tinnitus for several months and that opened up my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I can do reference without any problems but, exceeding reference has a cost.
Thanks! I couldn't resist making a joke out of the misspelling of party pooper, but you did get that I was agreeing with your post regarding taking extreme bass and SPL too far.
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post #4787 of 4951 Old 03-14-2017, 08:13 AM
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JTR Speakers will have seven of their Noesis 215RT's in the LaSalle Salon C at AXPONA. The room is 32' x 59' x 13' so 24,544 sq ft. I thought I'd do up a little ULF scorecard. Not bad for a room with no subwoofers. :

From 31.5 Hz and up, the seven 215RT's can play at 150+ dB!



Just for fun, what if we were to add a pair of Cap 4000ULF's?

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post #4788 of 4951 Old 03-14-2017, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4789 of 4951 Old 03-21-2017, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
I'm a party popper. An end point needs to be defined. Hearing loss and excessive volume is not what this thread is meant to be IMHO. Tinnitus and more hearing loss is serious business. More is better but, only to a certain point. Money can be spent on other aspect of the HT. Once you can hit X db. there is no need to go further. Now comes the rotten tomatoes. I can take it.
Very well said. even 115db bass is loud for me.

my goal though is headroom. when I model multiple subs I want to see how many watts it takes to hit 115dbs at say 20hz, and how much excursion is needed.

adding subs serves to lower the cone excursion and wattage needed.

hearing, once lost, is lost forever.

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post #4790 of 4951 Old 03-21-2017, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
JTR Speakers will have seven of their Noesis 215RT's in the LaSalle Salon C at AXPONA. The room is 32' x 59' x 13' so 24,544 sq ft. I thought I'd do up a little ULF scorecard. Not bad for a room with no subwoofers. :

From 31.5 Hz and up, the seven 215RT's can play at 150+ dB!



Just for fun, what if we were to add a pair of Cap 4000ULF's?

That's just ridiculous that "only" two 4000 ULF will get you above reference at 10Hz in a 25,000 cu. ft. room!
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post #4791 of 4951 Old 03-23-2017, 10:31 AM
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How would I go about finding the score for 2 pb16's in a 2200 cf room?


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post #4792 of 4951 Old 03-23-2017, 10:32 AM
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How would I go about finding my score for 2 pb16's in a 2200 cf room?


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post #4793 of 4951 Old 03-23-2017, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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How would I go about finding my score for 2 pb16's in a 2200 cf room?


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How does the PB16 compare to the PB13 for 20hz and under? The next time I update the calculator, I'll include the PB16 if someone can get me that info.
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post #4794 of 4951 Old 03-23-2017, 02:17 PM
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Hey Dom, I have been playing with the calculator and what I have noticed is the only thing equal to the IB Fi drivers I had were the 12 SIs and the dual DTS-10s. The DTS-10s were when I did not have a baffle wall and was about 2000 cubes. They were mighty impressive and new it but would not believe it. I plugged in the two xxx ported in my baffle and it is better than all of them. All this time! The xxx ported equals the DTS-10 at 16 and 20hz but destroys it below. I am even tuning where the 10hz will be like the 12hz, or better.

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post #4795 of 4951 Old 03-23-2017, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
How would I go about finding my score for 2 pb16's in a 2200 cf room?


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I think for now, just enter 3 PB13s into the sheet. Should be close
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
How does the PB16 compare to the PB13 for 20hz and under? The next time I update the calculator, I'll include the PB16 if someone can get me that info.
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...r/measurements

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...3-measurements
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post #4796 of 4951 Old 03-25-2017, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
I can't speak for others but, no. I don't listen to my system at max levels. I have had people over and a local GTG and people have asked me to turn it down. Having the capability is one thing and doing it on an everyday level is another. I had a bout of tinnitus for several months and that opened up my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I can do reference without any problems but, exceeding reference has a cost.
Thats borderline sacriledge my brother. Then again you may be the only sane poster still left here. Tinnitus is no joke.
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post #4797 of 4951 Old 03-26-2017, 06:49 AM
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I have always said I can't max out my system because my room is too small. The pressure builds so much your ears start to clog and it becomes very uncomfortable. I never go over reference on the speakers and 12 dB hot on the subs is just about the limit on the ears, again, from pressure. The 5-15hz region in my room adds another 10 dB of boost naturally so in that region it gets 22-25 dB over reference and why there is so much pressure.

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post #4798 of 4951 Old 03-26-2017, 07:20 AM
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I have always believed that a tolerance for loud volumes follows the same kind of bell curve that we would expect to see with most other human attributes. Of course, a physical/neurological tolerance for loud volumes doesn't necessarily equate to an increased resistance to physical damage, although I would expect there to be some variance there, as well. But, the ULF scorecard thread is probably disproportionately weighted (via self-selection) to people with a higher tolerance for loudness.

I have a large room, so my problem with excessive SPL, and ULF, is not strictly related to pressure on my ear drums, in the same way that it would be in a hyperbaric chamber, or at below about 10' of depth under water. It is more of a generalized sense of discomfort, caused by either the overall volume or the over-boosted low frequencies (thick concrete pad which limits tactile ULF). If I feel any real pressure on my ears, or any sort of tingling, I immediately back off the volume. I have always thought I was a little more sensitive to loudness than some people, and that may factor into my listening levels for movies. I typically watch movies at about -12 MV, with a 15db sub boost.

But, based on what I have read on a number of threads, the average movie listening volume is in a range from about -10 to -20. Nearly everyone uses a sub boost, at below Reference listening levels, although how much probably varies widely. There have been a number of studies done by various audio professionals (Holman is one I remember) indicating that small room effects add anywhere from about +5db to +7db of perceived volume in typical home theaters. As I recall, small room effect, in this context, is for rooms of less than about 15,000^3. Film mixers who I have seen comment on this, agree. Most prefer to watch their own movies, in their HT's, at volumes of about -5 MV, or a little less, in order to correspond to the soundtrack volumes that they mixed at Reference.

Regards,
Mike
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post #4799 of 4951 Old 03-27-2017, 12:51 AM
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There is only one volume to go over and it is directly related to you, the person. All of us may encounter a different ulf threshold that we are comfortable with. That is for each person to decide. I think some of us with TT's decided we have enough spl and if more TR is desired, bass shakers, Crownson etc is the way to get it without an increase in spl. Don't get me wrong, I am a bass head as most reading the thread.

The ULF thread research has disclosed significant insight on what we can expect for different rooms, number of sub, room design, etc. Dominguez as weather this thread for a long to get us practical knowledge and application of Home Theater ULF in this regard. I love cutting stuff up, but am careful of the duration of exposure. So hey, build something that can hit a 150 db at 10 Hz. We all like seeing the skills and knowledge involved. Just don't go deaf enjoying it for extended duration's.

ULF is addicitive. It tells you to get more even though it is kicking your azz in some other respect along the lines of hearing damage. With that said, I am planning a summer project directed at increase ULF. No sacriltedge or opposition to the ULF thread, just dissiminating my view on some of the knowledge we gained form having the privilage of helping gathering some of the data. Coolrda, remember, we have helped gather data and have been the lab rat, lol.
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post #4800 of 4951 Old 03-27-2017, 12:29 PM
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There have been some good posts around here lately about high SPL. I'd have to agree that our tolerances for loud listening levels can probably vary quite a bit from person to person.

I wish I could listen comfortably at really loud levels like some of you guys seem to be able to do. I can do reference MV's occasionally, but I usually fall in the category of somewhere between -15mv to -8mv. That's pretty loud for me, and probably partially do to me being in an untreated living room and probably have a fair amount of reflection going on. Also my ears seem to be pretty sensitive to high's and definitely are sensitive to boomy sounding bass. Add these two together especially at really loud levels and it can feel like it's wrecking havoc on my ears. I guess one good thing about it though, is that it forces me to try keep my bass as clean as possible sounding.

I watch quite a few movies on my system, but I think I may enjoy it the most for demoing (for myself). One of my favorite things to do is watch movie demo clips almost daily for at least 30 minutes or so if I can fit it in. I've got a ton blu ray lossless mkv's on disc that are fast and easily accessible to help keep it fresh.

Since I do this quite often, I think it would really start taking is toll on my ears if I did it at reference MV's all the time, and probably really start pissing off the neighbors.

That's the main reason I added the NF's right behind me as close as possible, along with the TT/MA's in addition like derrickdj1 was saying. At these moderate MV levels and my big room on concrete, that's the only way I can get the kind of Slam (with direct PR) and TR that I crave without killing my ears. Although I do run my subs pretty hot, but doesn't seem to get as boomy sounding with elevated levels as fast with NF's in the mix, as it does with FF's only. I'm running a pretty flat FR (crossover at 90hz), but then raise that whole thing up from ~ 90hz on down - a lot of times up around 15db over speakers, sometimes even more up around 20db depending on the clip (No DEQ).

Even though I have no where near the insane SPL capably as some of you guys here, it's still pretty decent and I definitely enjoy cranking it up higher on occasion. Because the louder you can listen, the harder the bass hits you!! It is addicting for sure, I hope I can continue to thoroughly enjoy it for many years to come without loosing my hearing and battling a severe case of tinnitus!!
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Last edited by SBuger; 03-27-2017 at 12:38 PM.
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