Your Home Theater ULF Score - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 2418 Old 11-28-2013, 02:54 PM
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Where would the SB13 ultra be with the new method? Just curious. Room size is 1530 cubic feet.

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post #812 of 2418 Old 11-28-2013, 04:43 PM
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what app can you use that will let you open the tool without paying the 9.99 subscription?
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post #813 of 2418 Old 11-28-2013, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

what app can you use that will let you open the tool without paying the 9.99 subscription?

I've had success with LibreOffice Calc (thus it will also work with OpenOffice Calc), and also with Google Drive Spreadsheet. Didn't try anything else.

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post #814 of 2418 Old 11-28-2013, 06:41 PM
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$5,326 cost per star, $1,133 per SI! Ouch.


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post #815 of 2418 Old 11-28-2013, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Post 1 Updated

  • Version 13.1 now available - Member scores are now in the spreadsheet

 

Post 2 Updated

  • Now lists groundplane (1/8 space, 4M distance) for all members
  • Using new Star calculation, 2 members ULF Stars have been changed to 5 Star:
  • notnyt - 5 Star @ 10hz
  • archaea - 5 Star @ 20hz

The original star rating was pretty decent though...only 2 members changed out of 50+ as a result of the new methodology.

 

This new methodology is much better however. :)

 

***Note, the new method doesn't change any of the estimates for the subs or the ULF score. It only changes the ULF Stars.



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post #816 of 2418 Old 11-28-2013, 07:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

$5,326 cost per star, $1,133 per SI! Ouch.

...eek.gif

Double, triple ouch.

...eek.gif

Wow! Lends new meaning to the term "pay-for-play"....better known as "payola."
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post #817 of 2418 Old 11-28-2013, 07:11 PM
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Hey just a thought...I think the 1db should be added to the data-bass numbers for the XV15. Based on Ricci reports that removing the base plate would of yielded another 1db. if I add 1db @ 16hz it gives a SI of 1.2. Which takes my 3 sub setup from 3.0 to 3.6 and drops my ULF score from 800(4stars) to 667(4.5 stars). Which makes sense because I have above reference output according to my SPL meter and REW.
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post #818 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Hey just a thought...I think the 1db should be added to the data-bass numbers for the XV15. Based on Ricci reports that removing the base plate would of yielded another 1db. if I add 1db @ 16hz it gives a SI of 1.2. Which takes my 3 sub setup from 3.0 to 3.6 and drops my ULF score from 800(4stars) to 667(4.5 stars). Which makes sense because I have above reference output according to my SPL meter and REW.

I know this has been mentioned many times on these forums about the 1db, but I can't seem to find it in Josh's reviews. Can you point me in the right direction?



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post #819 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


I think you are confusing what they were trying to say. They are talking just adding a driver using the same amp. What you are doing is adding a whole other subwoofer which in fact would add 6 dBs collocated. The same for if one had a Captivator sub, added another Captivator sub right next to it. It would gain 6 dBs. You added driver, amp, and box to get the 6 dBs. If you were to add just a box and driver to that cap and used the same amp you would get 3 dBs of an increase. The argument is over technical wording, so adding another driver gets you 3 dBs, adding identical subs gets you 6 dBs(max of course). Now the SI and UXL are not identical drivers. In my sims I used enough power to bring each driver to x-max at 5hz based on T/s parameters. It shows the differences but in the real world do these drivers really provide what the sims show? Some do, some don't. The best way to find out is build and test for yourself. People say the uxl is awesome because it provides LMS 5400 type performance for half the price, but like you what I don't understand is that the LMS 5400 was 2.5 dBs more than the UXL at 10hz, the UXL was 3 dBs more than the SI, all used the same amp that could destroy them. So why is the UXL such a great bargain if it almost takes two to equal the LMS 5400(which is not twice as much money) same as the SI to the the UXL with a .5 dBs difference? Call me confused as well.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


I said several times that I have a full comprehension of the "general" principals at hand.  Add another driver and get +3db.  Give that driver the same power as the first and you get +6db. 
I totally agree with that.  
Again, I fully comprehend the principals at hand.  But, under what circumstance would you add another sub to the same amp and NOT decrease the load, effectively doubling the power? 
Maybe that's it... But, I really don't see how I worded anything incorrectly?

How about coming to a bottomline.  Based on the measurements provided on D-B, if one had to choose between 1 UXL and 2 SI's, based on the configurations tested, which set up should technically have the output advantage?  The UXL is clearly a superior driver over the SI, but when you add another SI into the equation, the numbers I read show that 2 SI's should yield an audible advantage.

My argument is that 2 mutually coupled SI subs, utilizing the same amp should:
1.  Provide an audible max output advantage over 1 UXL.
2.  Provide lower distortion that the UXL when pushed to the same SPL levels.

Is that not a logical conclusion to draw or am I missing any key points to support my stance?
I agree 100%.  Not really feasible for me at this time.  Not for several months anyway, but I might jump on a UXL at some point to do a comparison for myself.  The thought of whipping together a GH does sound awesome! 
Maybe it has something to do with the LMS tech and the BL of the LMS, which indicates that it has the ability to maintain most of its motor force when pushed to its excursion limits.  I think I've seen Scott and Bill weigh in on the subject in the past, but can't recall any specific quotes right off hand.

Not sure if you guys realize this, but maybe this has something to do with it:

 

Let's compare the UXL and the LMS-U at 10hz. 

 

The UXL outputs 92.2db and the LMS-U produces 94.7db. Let's assume they are both powered appropriately. There is a 2.5db difference in system output.

 

If you double the UXL and LMS-U, you will get 98.2db and 100.7db respectively. There is a 2.5db difference in system output..

 

If you quadruple the UXL and LMS-U, you will get 104.2db and 106.7db respectively. There is a 2.5db difference in system output...

 

Point being, if you continue to equally add multiples at the same rate for each sub, the difference in output will still only be the difference you had as single subs (in this case, 2.5db); the difference does not compound. Granted, there's many more aspects of a sub than just its output at 10hz, but you get the picture.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...



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post #820 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I know this has been mentioned many times on these forums about the 1db, but I can't seem to find it in Josh's reviews. Can you point me in the right direction?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/82624-power-sound-audio-xv-15-subwoofer-review.html

Scroll down to post #9 by Josh.
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post #821 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

...There is a 2.5db difference in system output...

Point being, if you continue to equally add multiples at the same rate for each sub, the difference in output will still only be the difference you had as single subs (in this case, 2.5db); the difference does not compound. Granted, there's many more aspects of a sub than just its output at 10hz, but you get the picture.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...

You're perfectly right and this is perfectly normal. dBs are a relative scale. You can think of added dBs as a *multiplicative* factor. A factor 2 is 6.02 dB. Factor square root of 2 (1.4142) is 3.01 dB. 2.5 dB is a factor 1.33.

Thus if one LMS-U has 33% more output than the UMX at 10 Hz, it stands to reason that two LMS-U also have 33% more output than two UMX. Thus the constant 2.5 dB difference with multiples.

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post #822 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 09:11 AM
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Isn't SPL a power quantity? If so than a 3dB difference = double and 6dB = 4x.

Your math is for real quantities like voltage.

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post #823 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SXRDork View Post

Isn't SPL a power quantity? If so than a 3dB difference = double and 6dB = 4x.

Your math is for real quantities like voltage.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but dB SPL are sound pressure level relative to the smallest pressure the human ear can register, which is 20 micro pascals. Pressure is directly proportional to cone excursion and voltage, so no, it's not a power or intensity quantity.

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post #824 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 09:34 AM
 
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I don't know. We listen in the 65dB to 95dB range and use a sound meter to tell me where I'm at in the Universe.

My understanding, double the power to get a 3dB increase. Double the distance and you lose 3dB in SPL. Put together a well balanced, kick-butt system and the rest of it is moot.

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post #825 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My understanding, double the power to get a 3dB increase. Double the distance and you lose 3dB in SPL.

Since SPL is proportional to voltage, and power is proportional to the voltage squared, doubling the power gives 3 dB more SPL (aka factor 1.41 = sqrt 2). To double SPL one has to quadruple power.

SPL however drops like 1/distance. If you double the distance, SPL drops by half, and this should give -6 dB.
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post #826 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 10:54 AM
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Wait.. What are we trying to get at now and prove? I just thought this thread was for entertainment purposes. You know? For fun? Now I'm lost!
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post #827 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 11:04 AM
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I was just trying to explain why it's perfectly normal to always get the same 2.5 dB difference if you consider multiples of drivers that have a 2.5 dB output difference.

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post #828 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Not sure if you guys realize this, but maybe this has something to do with it:

Let's compare the UXL and the LMS-U at 10hz. 

The UXL outputs 92.2db and the LMS-U produces 94.7db. Let's assume they are both powered appropriately. There is a 2.5db difference in system output.

If you double the UXL and LMS-U, you will get 98.2db and 100.7db respectively. There is a 2.5db difference in system output..

If you quadruple the UXL and LMS-U, you will get 104.2db and 106.7db respectively. There is a 2.5db difference in system output...

Point being, if you continue to equally add multiples at the same rate for each sub, the difference in output will still only be the difference you had as single subs (in this case, 2.5db); the difference does not compound. Granted, there's many more aspects of a sub than just its output at 10hz, but you get the picture.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...

Yessirrrr.

That is one of those "general principles" I was referrig too in the post of mine that you quoted above.

What I was questioning was why that principle would not apply in the UXL vs SI scenario.

 

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post #829 of 2418 Old 11-29-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


Yessirrrr.

That is one of those "general principles" I was referrig too in the post of mine that you quoted above.

What I was questioning was why that principle would not apply in the UXL vs SI scenario.

Not sure I understand your question. It does apply to the UXL vs SI scenario.

 

Instead of 2.5db difference in the above example, it would be a 3db difference. The SI is 89.2 and the UXL is 92.2.

 

If you have 16 SIs (which you do :)) and compare them with 16 UXLs, the difference at 10hz comparing those two systems would be 3db.

 

To get an additional 3db at 10hz from your 16 SIs, you would need to add 6.4 more SIs w/appropriate power; thus 16 UXLs are the equivalent of 22.4 SIs (SI Conversion).



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post #830 of 2418 Old 12-01-2013, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Post 1 Updated - Estimated Conversions (V13.2 now available)

  • New estimated value for XV15 (up 1 db to counter base plate measurement)
  • New estimated values for XS15, XS30, XV30 as a result of the above (all up 1 db)
  • PC12+ now equals PB12+

 

Post 2 Updated - Member scores

  • Basshead and Tenderchkn scores bumped by .5 star as a result of the above

 

rcohen, let me know what freq you want to represent your ULF score (3.5 star@10hz, or 5 star@20hz)



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post #831 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 11:26 AM
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Quick calculation on mine seems to indicate a score of 543 with 4xSI18s in 2170cuft - 5 stars to 16Hz then 4.5 stars below that?

Fingers crossed I eventually get it built... lol
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post #832 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 12:05 PM
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Here are my scores with my replacement subs.
2x Rythmik FV15HP , 1920 cuft
10 12.5 16 20
NA 505 480 600
1 4.5 4.5 4.5


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post #833 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 12:46 PM
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Under the new calc

I am 2.5 at 10hz
3.0 above

Not too shabby smile.gif

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4000 | Emotiva XPA-5 | Emotiva XSP-1 | Emotiva DC-1 | PSB imagine B's |PSB image c5 | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp

My first HT build thread
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post #834 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 01:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Under the new calc

I am 2.5 at 10hz
3.0 above

...eek.gif

With one subwoofer (XS30), that's crazy good. Now what are you going do? confused.gif Any ideas of adding a second or third XS30?

Any graphs you can post for the rest of us to drool over? How does your room sound?
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post #835 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 02:15 PM
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3900 ft^3
3 Triax's

10 hz - 565 - 4.5
12.5 hz - 520 - 4.5
16 hz - 542 - 4.5
20 hz - 619 - 5.0

I am surprised that the S2 is rated so much higher than the triax given the triax has more displacement and the same power.

Would love to see both tested for cea numbers to see if the calculations here hold.

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post #836 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 02:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda View Post

Here are my scores with my replacement subs.
2x Rythmik FV15HP , 1920 cuft
10 12.5 16 20
NA 505 480 600
1 4.5 4.5 4.5

Today, in speaking with Brian, he commented the FV15HP was 10dB down at 10Hz and then it pretty much drops like a rock.

dominguez1, with this information, can your figure out a SI factor for the FV15HP at 10Hz?
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post #837 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Today, in speaking with Brian, he commented the FV15HP was 10dB down at 10Hz and then it pretty much drops like a rock.

dominguez1, with this information, can your figure out a SI factor for the FV15HP at 10Hz?

No because it could not pass a clean 10hz signal during 2m rms max burst testing. The XV15 will extend 12hz in room but it will not pass a clean 12hz signal 2m rms ground plane. The ULF thread is based off of data-bass 2m rms ground plane, so its only fair to calculate a SI factor based on the lowest frequency the sub will pass.
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post #838 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 05:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

No because it could not pass a clean 10hz signal during 2m rms max burst testing. The XV15 will extend 12hz in room but it will not pass a clean 12hz signal 2m rms ground plane. The ULF thread is based off of data-bass 2m rms ground plane, so its only fair to calculate a SI factor based on the lowest frequency the sub will pass.

Not arguing, what's considered a clean signal? Is it <10% THD?

Does a second or third subwoofer change or add to the equation in any form?

-
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post #839 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not arguing, what's considered a clean signal? Is it <10% THD?

Does a second or third subwoofer change or add to the equation in any form?

-

It means distortion was higher then 35% at 10hz so it could it did not pass cea2010.
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post #840 of 2418 Old 12-02-2013, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...eek.gif

With one subwoofer (XS30), that's crazy good. Now what are you going do? confused.gif Any ideas of adding a second or third XS30?

Any graphs you can post for the rest of us to drool over? How does your room sound?

Haha thanks BeeMan
Room sounds fantastic. I have HUGE plans for a second sub. But I am just trying to convince the wifey to let me have one (it's our living room this is all set up in. I just won the battle for some room treatments so.

But I'm trying hard hahah

This is the only graph I have at the moment.


This shows the sub with and and without xt32

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4000 | Emotiva XPA-5 | Emotiva XSP-1 | Emotiva DC-1 | PSB imagine B's |PSB image c5 | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp

My first HT build thread
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Fv15hp Subwoofer , Svs Sb13 Ultra Piano Gloss 13 Inch 1000 Watt Powered Subwoofer , Danley Sound Labs Dts 10 , Bic Pl 200 Acoustech Platinum Series Subwoofer , Elemental Designs A7s 450 , Bowers Wilkins Asw 610 , Epik Empire , Hsu Vtf 15h Subwoofer , Klipsch Sw 311 , Svs Pb12 Nsd Black Vinyl 12 Inch Powered Subwoofer , Velodyne Eq Max 15 15 Subwoofer , Seaton Sound Submersive H P

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