Your Home Theater ULF Score - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 02:35 PM
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Like I said, you could hear the house creaking and the door to the upstairs sounded like my house was possessed but it didn't make ME feel anything and the couch didn't shake.


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post #62 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 02:37 PM
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Desertdome. You've performed similar experiments with your 8 infinite baffle subs installed below the floor and had similar results - no? IIRC, you demonstrated this for us at the last g2g in omaha?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #63 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Desertdome. You've performed similar experiments with your 8 infinite baffle subs installed below the floor and had similar results - no? IIRC, you demonstrated this for us at the last g2g in omaha?
That is correct. Your impressions of the bass content are best viewed visually biggrin.gif:

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post #64 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 03:14 PM
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Ha you feed a guy one of the best meals he's ever had, open up your home to him, show him some of the most tactile bass he has ever felt and that's all you got in reply? What a mooch!

In my feeble defense I did make a giant post with frequency responses I captured at each home and was basically overwhelmed with posting duties for a short while since I went to back to back meets with yours and the PA gorilla83 meet. I l

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #65 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


Thanks! Obviously nothing like some of sub systems around here but its decent. also, being Ricci measured 94.4 db @ 12.5hz in room with the xv15, is there a way to calculate that?

No, unfortunately. It's all based on anechoic.



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post #66 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Ok guys…

I took a video of my basement space this morning for some perspective. Sorry for the horrible PQ. Cheap phone video. If you guys get a chance, can you verify that the links in the video work. 

To recap based on the info provided above. Here is my potential scores depending on who wants to draw their own conculsion on what area should/should not be counted:

(HT Space) 1,512ft^3 = 95@10hz
(Option 1) 2,604ft^3 = 163@10hz
(Option 2) 3,164ft^3 = 198@10hz
(Option 3) 6,904ft^3 = 432@10hz


What say you all? Feel free to use whatever calculation/score you prefer Dom.

This makes me want to seal off my room and get more subs…
tongue.gif

I'd go option 1. I think that makes the most sense! 163, nice!



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post #67 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 06:36 PM
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Got an Rythmik F15 in a 1368 cu ft room, I know the F15 is -7db @ 20hz compared to the Rythmik Fv15HP. Can someone compute this - thanks
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post #68 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I should have said what I meant by that. Recently I have been experimenting with my minidsp's low pass filter to see what kind of impact/feel low bass has in my room.

I used the song Bass I Love You and the Irene scene from Blackhawk Down. I set the LPF at 14hz so that nothing above 14hz (or at least very, very little) is played by the subs. What I found is that the bass didn't do much for me with the LPF set at 14hz. The doors sounded like they wanted to blow open, the room groaned and creaked, but I felt no couch shake and no body feel.

Next, I turned up the LPF to 15hz, and then 16hz, 17hz and so on one step at a time. Each 1 hz increase made a huge difference in couch shake/body feel. It's amazing what a difference 1hz can make in that area of bass.

Now, there is of course a chance I did something wrong and I do understand that Bass I Love You has a huge and repeating hit at roughly 17hz, but I cranked the volume up quite a bit louder when I had the LPF set to 14 hz and there is plenty of content below 14hz on that song and still nothing. Like I said, my room feels it a lot - but I (and the couch) do not.

I am NOT saying that I regret going with 8 SI's. I know I could have had much less enclosure area taking up room space if I had built a couple of large ported to 15hz subs but in my room I have plenty of room for subs so the size of the sub(s) doesn't really matter.

Carp. If it's too much trouble to move a few subs behind your LP this weekend, can you try something else for me if you get the chance.

Take one of your subs currently under your screen. Move it a few feet out from the wall. Play those same two tracks again...but this time, sit on one of the subs. Let us know how the 6-7hz tactical feeling is when you sit on the sub.

Impractical?...Maybe...but should provide a slightly better ideal of what ULF adds to the experience in a near field situation.

Do it for the Science of it!
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post #69 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I'd go option 1. I think that makes the most sense! 163, nice!

This is your thread man! I'm fine with however you want to interpret it.

Add me to the list.

 

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post #70 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

No, unfortunately. It's all based on anechoic.

No biggie...just makin sure. smile.gif
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post #71 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Man, I spent way to much time this morning throwing the above post together...lol

So, I was thinking about the calculator last night... Partly because I love spreadsheets and partly because I'm a fan of standardization.

Since the concept of this thread is "ULF" score... What if an individual was to fill in the spreadsheet in it's entirety and post their results, yet you use a set standard (say 16Hz) as the bench mark to be included in the above consolidated list?

I'll give you a few examples of what I am thinking...

Example 1:
SVS PB-13 Ultra x 2, 3000ft^3 Space

Scores:
N/A@10hz
2219@12.5hz
501@16hz
314@20hz
260@25hz
225@31.5hz

Example 2:
LMS-Ultra x 2, 3000ft^3 Space

Scores:
796@10hz
403@12.5hz
260@16hz
204@20hz
179@25hz
157@31.5hz

Here is where I think it get’s interesting from a “ULF” score stand point. Let’s say we arbitrairly remove the 10Hz score from the LMS-U. Looks what it does to the numbers:

LMS-Ultra x 2, 3000ft^3 Space

Scores:
N/A@10hz
815@12.5hz
386@16hz
274@20hz
230@25hz
196@31.5hz

Note, that by removing the 10Hz response it increases the numbers across the board. May not seem fair to individuals lacking response down super low, but do you think it's applicalbe to the "ULF" topic at hand? Just thinking out loud I guess...something else to consider.

I get what you're saying now.

 

I'm going to change the calculator so you can get your score by each frequency. I'll also post a new chart that converts each frequency as well so folks can do the easy math.

 

However, I'm going to leave it up to the person to determine what score they want to post at what frequency as their main score. This ULF score was all about perspective. Let's take for example Carp: he has the capability to get low, but doesn't think much of it in his room. He could chose to post 16hz, instead of 10hz. This will let everyone know that this is his perspective when it comes to ULF. He weighs 16hz more important than 10hz.

 

Let me work on the calculator, and we'll be able to see how an HT rooms ULF score changes with frequency. 



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post #72 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Got an Rythmik F15 in a 1368 cu ft room, I know the F15 is -7db @ 20hz compared to the Rythmik Fv15HP. Can someone compute this - thanks

the si @16hz would be .8 roughly.

1368 ÷ .8 = ulf score of 1710 @ 16hz
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post #73 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landshark1 View Post

OK, here's my modest system just for comparison. I'm using the PB13-Ultra's number than - 3db which is what most people said the PB12-Plus's output is, about 3db down across the band from the PB13-Ultra.

2500^3
Dual SVS PB12-Plus
2612 @ 12.5hz
590 @ 16hz
370 @ 20hz
306 @ 25hz

I will be enhancing the calculator to get these by frequency...hang tight. :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


I do not think thats figured correctly. you are suppose to use the si conversion number from dominguez chart, not the output at the given frequency from my understanding.

Using the PB13, the si number is 1.0 @ 16hz and .7 @ 12.5hz

Dual PB13's would have a si of 2.0 in 20hz mode @ 16hz and a si of 1.4 in max ext. mode @ 12.5hz
2500÷1.4=1786 @ 12.5hz
2500÷2 = 1250 @ 16hz

The PB12 plus would have a si of .7 @ 16hz, so duals would give you a si of 1.4.

2500÷1.4 = 1786 @ 16hz

Basshead...you're getting that hang of this stuff! Sounds about right in my book!



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post #74 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupaKats View Post
 

Room size = ~4600 cubic feet (just remember general size from when we bought the house but don't have exact measurement right now)
Subwoofer = Outlaw LFM-1 EX (97.5db @16hz)
Conversion to SI = .97 at 16hz
HT ULF Score = 4600 / .97 = 4761@16hz

 

This is a great very cool thread and a good read.  Cannot wait to see what others post and until I have time to be able to add more to what I have.

Thanks SK!

 

I mentioned this in another post, but my first sub was the ed a2-300. I had a score of 3167.

 

Fast forward to now 504@10hz and 248@12.5hz. It's been a fun journey! Trying to figure out how I can get into the 100's like popa and MK! ;)



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post #75 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

So how do we adjust the winisd numbers to correspond with the SI's databass numbers because the SI data does not match up to the winisd numbers for it. Even subratcing 6 dBs don't match up to go from 1M(winisd) to 2 M data-bass.

Maybe take the % difference between the winisd SI and the data-bass numbers, and apply that % to the subs you put through winisd?

 

If it's 10% off for example at 10hz, then if winisd comes back with 90db; you'd adjust it by 10% to get 81db...



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post #76 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Like I said, you could hear the house creaking and the door to the upstairs sounded like my house was possessed but it didn't make ME feel anything and the couch didn't shake.

So very interesting...

 

That's why I started the "Measuring the tactile feeling of your sub" thread. There isn't an approach to measuring tactile feeling and why some get it and some don't. I think nearfield placement is the answer...I just don't know understand the science around it.

 

For example:

 

My theory is that a sub that measures 115db at 20hz 30ft away will feel a lot less tactile than one that is 1ft away measuring at the same output. If that's true, what is the physics around it to cause it to be more tactile when they both have the same measure SPL?

 

Anyway...I digress.



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post #77 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:18 PM
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What I did was subtract 6 dBs for a 2 meter measurement and the 10 hz was real close but the 20 hz was off. Maybe I used the wrong size box I will run them again tomorrow. Either way I can squeeze another dB at 10 hz to 93.2 dBs going a little bigger. I hope these are as good as they sim because It will be having just like 24 of my eD's going by the sims!
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post #78 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:27 PM
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The bottom end is very subtle and adds weight or accuracy to an event. I have used this example many times bu putting HP filters just makes things less real feeling. When a car crashes or the ground shakes the feeling you would get in real life contains ULF's and they are just part of the real world of effects. When you watch TIH there is a reason it just sounds fuller, more weight, etc. you don't need massive seat shake to get it. The Avengers shakes my seats but just seems artificial or not natural where the plane crash from FOTP seems much more real. My room does not shake or make noises at all but there is this sense of weight and uneasy with full scale movie. I love watching movies that dig deep but not have very high SPL's because they just feel different. When Madaeel was over he would ask things like, what was that, that was weird! There was not much bass going on, just a sense of uneasy. I am on concrete as well.
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post #79 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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1st post has been updated:

 

The chart has changed so now it has SI conversion by each frequency. Check out the Horn subs! Wow!!

 

I've also updated the calculator so that you can enter the same sub to get scores by each frequency. I'm also rounding now, so we get the same numbers. 

 

Let me know what you think and if you want me to change your score to a different hz!



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post #80 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The bottom end is very subtle and adds weight or accuracy to an event. I have used this example many times bu putting HP filters just makes things less real feeling. When a car crashes or the ground shakes the feeling you would get in real life contains ULF's and they are just part of the real world of effects. When you watch TIH there is a reason it just sounds fuller, more weight, etc. you don't need massive seat shake to get it. The Avengers shakes my seats but just seems artificial or not natural where the plane crash from FOTP seems much more real. My room does not shake or make noises at all but there is this sense of weight and uneasy with full scale movie. I love watching movies that dig deep but not have very high SPL's because they just feel different. When Madaeel was over he would ask things like, what was that, that was weird! There was not much bass going on, just a sense of uneasy. I am on concrete as well.

^^^This.

 

For me, I'd say bottom end is <10hz. For 10-15hz, I get the wobble effect. Below that, it's a weight and heaviness feeling.



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post #81 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:46 PM
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Exactly!
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post #82 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Got an Rythmik F15 in a 1368 cu ft room, I know the F15 is -7db @ 20hz compared to the Rythmik Fv15HP. Can someone compute this - thanks

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post


the si @16hz would be .8 roughly.

1368 ÷ .8 = ulf score of 1710 @ 16hz

The F15 is going to be tough to estimate at anything except 20hz because it is sealed, and the fv15hp is ported.

 

The FV15HP is 108.1 @ 20hz, so the f15 would be 101.1@20hz.

 

This translates to .7 SI.

 

1368 / .7 = 1954@20hz



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post #83 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


The F15 is going to be tough to estimate at anything except 20hz because it is sealed, and the fv15hp is ported.

The FV15HP is 108.1 @ 20hz, so the f15 would be 101.1@20hz.

This translates to .7 SI.

1368 / .7 = 1954@20hz

Dang it I was intitially going to estimate .7 but I thought I was being too stingy lol. Anyways thanks for the correction.
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post #84 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 08:56 PM
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One quick example. Play TDKR at reference and run the LFE flat. Play the scene when the bat first emerges. Very loud bass that shakes your seats but filtered at 20hz so you still get something under 20hz. Now play FOTP plane roll at the same level and not only do I get shaking, I get pressurization, uneasy, weight, and physical effects to the body because it is more real without a filter. Peoe watch TDKR scene and say that is cool, they watch FOTP scene and they come out like someone was mugging them, increased heart rate, sweaty, very excited, etc.. The FOTP roll is centered at 32 hz but it is not filtered so the overall effects are just like real life. Of course with a limit on spl so we don't come out screaming at each other what!
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post #85 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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HT ULF Scores Updated!

 

I've bolded the lowest score so far...not that it matters... ;)



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post #86 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 09:05 PM
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Hey you updated pop's subs as 8x18 when he has 16x18!
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post #87 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 09:06 PM
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Maybe I will order two more drivers! Nah, I need one 8 ohm load and the 8 drivers fit the bill!
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post #88 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Hey you updated pop's subs as 8x18 when he has 16x18!

Good catch! That should be shameful...sorry pop! Changing as I type...



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post #89 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

HT ULF Scores Updated!

I've bolded the lowest score so far...not that it matters... wink.gif

Two Clones.

Your good at lists. Not to sure if it would be more trouble that it's worth, but maybe instead of bolding an individual, you could link a google spreadsheet (or downloadable excel sheet) with all of the info. This way so people could sort by room size, score, fq, name, etc...

Might be worth it in the long run when this thread get's massive!!!!

Just a thought.

smile.gif

 

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post #90 of 2469 Old 08-29-2013, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Two Clones.

Your good at lists. Not to sure if it would be more trouble that it's worth, but maybe instead of bolding an individual, you could link a google spreadsheet (or downloadable excel sheet) with all of the info. This way so people could sort by room size, score, fq, name, etc...

Might be worth it in the long run when this thread get's massive!!!!

Just a thought.

smile.gif

Yeah, good idea. I'll have to figure something out...;)



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