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post #991 of 3743 Old 12-05-2013, 08:39 PM
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Hmph. Clever but oh so close.... yet again. wink.giftongue.gif

First of all the data pulled from DB is 2m groundplane. Not inroom. "Better" will be measured inroom. Your comparison has been rendered irrelevant. tongue.gif

Second, it only takes a quick glance to see that the "HSU in sealed mode" is much worse than let's just go with the SI 18HT since it's so popular. Look at 10-20hz overlaid as you said. With the DIY SI data we see a nice 12dB/oct rolloff that helps sealed systems have and produce usable inroom <20hz action. The subject at hand. Next look at the HSU. Just about 24dB/oct rolloff lest preventing usable inroom <20hz playback.

Clear as day.

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post #992 of 3743 Old 12-05-2013, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hmph. Clever but oh so close.... yet again. wink.giftongue.gif

First of all the data pulled from DB is 2m groundplane. Not inroom. "Better" will be measured inroom. Your comparison has been rendered irrelevant. tongue.gif

Second, it only takes a quick glance to see that the "HSU in sealed mode" is much worse than let's just go with the SI 18HT since it's so popular. Look at 10-20hz overlaid as you said. With the DIY SI data we see a nice 12dB/oct rolloff that helps sealed systems have and produce usable inroom <20hz action. The subject at hand. Next look at the HSU. Just about 24dB/oct rolloff lest preventing usable inroom <20hz playback.

Clear as day.

Mmm... Personal experience in the matter of running a certain popular vented option, which also suggests running it in the sealed mode did not compare to other sealed DIY or ID options I’ve experienced and measured. I’m not sure of some of the particulars though.

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post #993 of 3743 Old 12-05-2013, 09:08 PM
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When I build my new HT room, I will for sure have a suspended floor. 2 of my 21's in my living room has more tactile feel than my entire system on the concrete floor in my current basement.
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post #994 of 3743 Old 12-05-2013, 09:11 PM
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I certainly plan on building a riser soon. Never really thought about it until recently but it sounds like a lot of us are going to try it out if we haven't already. biggrin.gif

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post #995 of 3743 Old 12-05-2013, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post



There were some notable commerical and ID sealed systems that had worse response too. But I won't get into that since nearly all of them had the built in HPF setting that you said rendered the sealed system and the data..... 'meaningless'...

Oh hey btw. I just want to clarify (and for you too Sheldon, since I quoted you earlier) that I meant that the label of the mode 'Sealed' was "meaningless" because it does not accurately represent the devices own natural frequency response when sealed.

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post #996 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 07:36 AM
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Ok, so if we take a measurement in my room at the listening position with one of my SI subs in the front corner of the room and do the same thing in Archaea's room then the response below 20hz should look similar since we both have a little over 3000 cu feet with concrete walls on 2 sides?
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post #997 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 07:39 AM
 
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If all things are equal....yes. But room-to-room, unfortunately, all things aren't equal for as we all know, a room measurement is based on how sound waves bounce around and intersect each other in a room.
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post #998 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Ok, so if we take a measurement in my room at the listening position with one of my SI subs in the front corner of the room and do the same thing in Archaea's room then the response below 20hz should look similar since we both have a little over 3000 cu feet with concrete walls on 2 sides?

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If all things are equal....yes. But room-to-room, unfortunately, all things aren't equal as we all know a reading is based on how the sound waves bounce around and intersect each other in a room.

Small alcoves, hallways, stairwells, etc will all play special part in this.

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post #999 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:09 AM
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carp - we should do a three way comparison between my room, your room, and scrappydue's room with the same subs at some point this winter. With no EQ. To prove room eq differs dramatically.

oh wait -- we've already done that. rolleyes.gif




I do understand this all is effected by listening position, sub position, etc, but the same four SI 18" subs in he same boxes in my room required ~15dB of boost at 10hz to be close to flat (still under), the same subs in carp's room require ~9dB of boost to be flat to 10hz, and the same subs in scrappydue's room take no boost to have a nice house curve.

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post #1000 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:13 AM
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looks like a second xs30 will be being delivered by jolly old St Nick for me smile.gif

which will bump me up to a 3.5/4.0 across the board smile.gif

10hz 12.5hz 16hz 20hz
1.4 1.6 1.6 1.4
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3.5 4.0 4.0 4.0

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post #1001 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

looks like a second xs30 will be being delivered by jolly old St Nick for me smile.gif

which will bump me up to a 3.5 across the board smile.gif

Two XS30s and you're at 3.5? eek.gif Oh my. Congrats. Look forward to you commenting on the difference between one and two XS30s.

...biggrin.gif
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post #1002 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:32 AM
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Two XS30s and you're at 3.5? eek.gif Oh my. Congrats. Look forward to you commenting on the difference between one and two XS30s.

...biggrin.gif

is that a good eek.gif or a bad eek.gif

but yes I am very curious...as everyone SWEARS by duals. so I am very much looking forward to getting the second next week! order has been placed!!

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post #1003 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:34 AM
 
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is that a good eek.gif or a bad eek.gif

Neither.....because it's wonderful. 3.5 is excellent. The XS30 digs deep, is great for music and you have 3.5 stars worth of output. That's excellent.

As you acclimate to the output of the second XS30, my bet, dollar to doughnuts, you'll find yourself adding a third and possibly a fourth over the next year or so.

We have dual FV15HPs on order and based on dialed in room measurements, I'm keeping our options open to a third.
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post #1004 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:37 AM
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haha thanks!! yeah 3.5 at 10hz...then a glorious 4.0 above...I am beyond excited! I cant imagine how it will sound....(Im sure you are experiencing the exact same feeling I am right now)

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post #1005 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:39 AM
 
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haha thanks!! yeah 3.5 at 10hz...then a glorious 4.0 above...I am beyond excited! I cant imagine how it will sound....(Im sure you are experiencing the exact same feeling I am right now)

As I listen to movies through headphones, all I can do is imagin the impact bass we'll be able to experience. These pending subs will open a whole new world of Home Theater experience.
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post #1006 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

carp - we should do a three way comparison between my room, your room, and scrappydue's room with the same subs at some point this winter. With no EQ. To prove room eq differs dramatically.

oh wait -- we've already done that. rolleyes.gif




I do understand this all is effected by listening position, sub position, etc, but the same four SI 18" subs in he same boxes in my room required ~15dB of boost at 10hz to be close to flat (still under), the same subs in carp's room require ~9dB of boost to be flat to 10hz, and the same subs in scrappydue's room take no boost to have a nice house curve.

Was the difference noticed during a movie?

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post #1007 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post





I do understand this all is effected by listening position, sub position, etc, but the same four SI 18" subs in he same boxes in my room required ~15dB of boost at 10hz to be close to flat (still under), the same subs in carp's room require ~9dB of boost to be flat to 10hz, and the same subs in scrappydue's room take no boost to have a nice house curve.

Measurements taken does not equal measurement accuracy.

It's pretty easy to get things wrong when measuring the <20hz range.


You're going to get different results when you take the same system and put it in three completely different spaces, with completely different dimensions, completely different build materials/technique, listening position, position of listener relative to sub system position, equipment/gear and signal path differences...

I could go on.

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post #1008 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:11 AM
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MKtheater,

Scrappydue didn't have the demo discs which have the touted ULF clips on them. We watched a couple scenes like Art of Flight, Incredible Hulk, and what not - it sounded great, but nothing that really set it apart from anything I've heard before (we had the eq pulled down to a typical sealed sub house curve by the time we demoed the scenes). His four subs were powered by the iNuke 6000 and because he didn't need to apply any low end boost he had more power than he could ever use in that basement. Reference level playback with a free house curve only required the gain knobs at 2/3's on the iNuke, and we weren't even close to a signal clip light on the iNuke 6000. I need to pay him another visit and bring my bluray discs and play more with the chopper blades from black hawk down etc. He lives about 40 minutes away - so I've only been there a couple times. I will clearly say this - and I told him so at the time. Upstairs in his smaller living room with a couple of SVS PB13's on the suspended wooden floor had much more tactile effect than his basement slab with the four sealed SI that play much lowe frequency. I do believe he'd express the same, but now he has a dedicated theater space, instead of the living room, where he can have an AT screen for his Klispch THX Ultra speakers - so I think overall he is satisfied with the tradeoff. He never really seems to crave the tactile effect as much as some of us do anyways.

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post #1009 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Measurements taken does not equal measurement accuracy.

It's pretty easy to get things wrong when measuring the <20hz range.

---snip---

I could go on.

Please do go on. Using the scientific principal of setup and measurement, it's reasonable that one should be able to get closely matching graphs. I understand and agree that all things are not equal but my understanding, that's the point of today's EQ'g efforts, to get dissimilar subwoofer sound reproduction systems to measure the same. And to carry the idea a bit further, my understanding, that's where placement and number of subwoofers come to bear; two, three, four or more driver boxes in a room.

Where am I going wrong in this understanding?

(what is a mere mortal to do?)
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post #1010 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:16 AM
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Scott,

We all three own omnimics. Real time frequency response analysis with the omnimic is so simple you don't even need to open the instructions to figure it out. All three of us have been in each other's rooms on multiple occassions. My omnimic has measured all three rooms.

Give us even just a wee bit of cred...


The earth is flat...
no it isn't
yes it is

okay i'll prove it.

doesn't matter what you say - the earth is flat.

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post #1011 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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Give us even just a wee bit of cred...

Okay, but anymore and you're taking advantage of everybody's good will. tongue.gif
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post #1012 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:24 AM
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Archaea,
Audio memory is very tricky. There is a reason I test everything in my room rather than listening in another. Multiple rooms is fun and great to experience but without having the exact setup in the same room at the same time it is very hard to tell what is what. Your GTG's in the same room are much better but without equal responses and calibration it is very hard to make a comparison. I just attended a GTG to compare speakers and one speaker was better than the other but the one speaker I have heard in my room did not sound as good as it did in my room. The only thing I can do to make sure it was not a setup thing is to take that speaker and compare them in my room. I thought one speaker was louder than the other.

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post #1013 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Scott,

We all three own omnimics.

Oh nice. I didn't know that was the case. That's good as it levels the playing ground a bit but not totally.



As for the rest.... I don't have the energy to reply to anything else.

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post #1014 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 09:39 AM
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Me either I'm done.

Mk. Read my post 1004.

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post #1015 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Beeman, again, reference spl levels at 10hz from a sub ported higher than 10hz are not going to happen.

 

 

Quote:
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Yes, if a single subwoofer. The info came to me via Brian and my reference was personal expectations based on his sharing. I was also informed, agreeing with your above, after 10Hz, the FV15HP, falls like a stone with no breeze in the air. In the case of a "single" FV15HP, no talk below Rythmik's stated single port tune of 12Hz. But in real terms, if two or three FV15HPs are in a room, the total output is very capable of 10Hz performance and yes, this should be considered as it's about total output, not the output of a single subwoofer's output as if synergistic reality doesn't happen.

Just because output is not listed, doesn't mean it shouldn't be part of the conversation. I would rather you be at odds (irritated) with me than condescend for your happiness.

(and at no time do I question your credentials nor challenge my incompetency)

 

 

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You get the same extension just more db's from tuning and above.

Regarding the FV15HP and port tune, IMO carp said it best (and perhaps others). What I think would be more accurate would be:

 

 You get the same extension in-room just more db's from that point and above.

 

Take the example of the XV15 measurements in Josh's room:

 

graph

 

In-room, it has clean output to 12.5hz (below tune) but only extends to 16hz groundplane. If you continue to add more XV15s in Josh's room, you will eventually get reference output at 12.5hz, but unlikely anything below that.

 

With the FV15HP, it's clean down to 12.5hz outdoor. In my room, I get extension to 10hz. As the example above, the more FV's that I add, I'll eventually get reference (if I don't have it already) at 10hz.

 

The extension you get from ported subs below tune, is very much dependent on your room, so it will vary. But for some room, useful and potentially reference output below tune seems very feasible IMO.

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post #1016 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 10:31 AM
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Great thread.

This recent discussion, ... quite civil, it's appreciated.

Variables, any whatsoever the data can't be trusted. I know this for sure; Acoustics is perhaps the most un-intuitive discipline I've been involved with period.

REW, OmniMic, etc., have place quality tools in the hands of enthusiasts. However, in this situation there's inadequate data to know for sure, imo.


wrt the tactile benefits associated with wooden floors/structures, etc, a tactile transducer properly blended and time aligned is perma-grin material, for sure. The tactile element, however it's employed, absolutely must be in concert with the acoustic component, to ideally be a positive step forward in the experience, ..and not merely a gimmicky distraction.

My multi-manifold IB, Crowson tactile transducer build, got neutered to a single manifold/distributed multiple small-sealed due to unexpected health concerns. But I've clawed myself back to where I was a couple years ago, and that's a good thing. On the offensive once again.


Again, an interesting thread.

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post #1017 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 10:31 AM
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I know you guys did that, great for you guys and you are at least trying, many just tell people what to do without even trying themselves. I think the point others are making is that there can be error in measurements and such, especially below 20hz. I am not sure how much I trust my mics below 10hz even though they have been calibrated to 5hz. I never could get a repeatable response from my omnimic I owned so I donated it. That is just me though. What are we to do though, at least you guys are trying.

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post #1018 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Bosso

All those measurements, including the seaton submersive hp measurement from the 2011 meet as shown in my post were average of four seats in my room. I certainly realize the FR varies as I walk around my room, I've done this extensively with the omnimic in trying to identify the best placement in my room in preparation for the 2012 meet. I've also played with this quite a bit in a couple other rooms.

As far as all rooms having more alike than dislike gain profiles, how do you handle an outlier room like scrappydues who doesn't even have to boost at 10hz on sealed si subs to obtain a nice house curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Guys, look at some of those graphs again. The HSU in sealed mode for example dropped off just as many db's outside as it did in Archaea's room between 20hz and 10hz.

The Hsu does not drop off the same as outdoors. As I stated (and Scott co-signed) filtered and/or resonant subs are irrelevant. Those who've claimed room gain numbers for such subs in the past, present and future simply do not present enough data. The Hsu graph shoes the same RG profile the SM does.

In my room, here's sealed with proper signal shaping for the RG profile vs a 20 Hz ported sub:



The bump @ 20 Hz and the shallower roll off tell you it's in-room and not outdoors, but this is one reason why I eliminate filtered/ported/PR'd/horn/BP alignments. I certainly wouldn't post that result claiming my room has no gain because I know going in that it's no true.

Looking at the SM, which I did and have done, from your posts when it happened, you have a typical RG profile except for the huge dip around 15 Hz, which is the only atypical data point vs other's posted data. Most rooms show this dip between 10-20 Hz, but it's usually an improperly shaped native response where the knee is harder than the RG knee. It's shown in the few member's curves I added to the graph of data. It's clearly obvious in Josh's room and notnyt's room. Mine occurs a bit lower. I actually have worked to remove that, but it's a delicate operation. It's difficult to get the native shape right to the point of no bump before the dip, etc., but it certainly is possible.



I would investigate that point and go from there. Josh, Noah and Danley have the idea that parts of a rooms structure can resonate a-sympathetically, or some such concept I do not grasp (nor do I buy it). I believe it's simply a source of transmission loss at a resonant frequency vs other frequencies. That's one thing to investigate, and where I would personally begin vs claiming the room has no gain, which is simply impossible.

To be clear, an average of seats is not what I meant and is largely irrelevant. To nail down a single digit resonance, I folded a towel and laid it against various boundaries in various spots of the boundary with the mic cap gently pressed into the towel. I also placed the mic in adjacent rooms, an inch from the ceiling, walls, floors, etc. I beefed up doors, changed windows, opened windows and doors to varying degrees, placed the mic outdoors of opened windows, eave vents and on and on.

It's imperative to work on the measurement rig to calibrate with files, SPL, windowing, etc., to get as accurate to as low as reasonably possible with the hardware you have. Typical gain begins around 30 Hz. If you measure to 10 Hz, you barely have an octave and a half to work with in the end. Not enough data to state anything conclusively.

Your post of the scrappy in-room measurements: There are 3 traces with no relation to each other whatsoever except for the octave 10-20 Hz. It clearly shows 5-8dB/octave gain vs the 2nd order subs roll off. Nothing special there and it fits perfectly with a dozen other member's data in rooms ranging from <2k ft^3 to over 5k ft^3.

With no accurate data below 10 Hz, we just can't post the RG profile, especially when a dip in the critical 10-20 Hz octave skews the data to the point where no prediction can be made with any reasonable accuracy other than to apply an average that's based on existing empirical evidence.

I would love to just nod my head, agree that there is a magic room with boundaries that eat reflections exactly on scale with anechoic response, but there is simply no such phenomenon in this universe. wink.gif
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post #1019 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 10:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

With the FV15HP, it's clean down to 12.5hz outdoor. In my room, I get extension to 10hz. As the example above, the more FV's that I add, I'll eventually get reference (if I don't have it already) at 10hz.

The extension you get from ported subs below tune, is very much dependent on your room, so it will vary. But for some room, useful and potentially reference output below tune seems very feasible IMO.

Thank-you.
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post #1020 of 3743 Old 12-06-2013, 11:13 AM
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This thread has been moving quick, but since the point of this thread is all about ULF performance, here are a few speclab captures of clips with content 20hz and below, from the northeast sub GTG last year as promised. More will be posted in the GTG thread soon.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread

A quick summary, we attempted to level match the subs, they were run 8db hot and the MV for the clips started at -15db. So the subs were about 7db below reference. Once we got to the FV15HP, the MV was raised for some of the clips. Speclab was not calibrated to a known level so these captures can only be compared to each other. IIRC, I used Bosso's setting file with a filter added for the mic correction, sound card correction was not used. Mic was a CSL calibrated EMM-6 with a tascam US-122 preamp. Mic was not moved at all during the GTG. I'll comment on what I see in the captures in another post so everyone can come to their own conclusions first.

First up, Bass I Love You. I believe all of these captures were done at -15 on the MV.

FV15HP



E15



PSA XS15



LMS Ultra x 2 (HPF at 10hz, 24db/octave)



JTR Cap x 2 (HPF at 17hz, 48db/octave, but not set correctly so output around tune, 15hz, was diminished http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434901/northeast-october-20th-gtg-results-thread/80_20#post_22524016



Seaton submersive x 3

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