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post #1171 of 2101 Old 12-09-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Thatz because the weight of the driver does have some relevance. Please dont take my post out of context...obviously there is more to sound quality then the weight of the driver. my point was Reef went from XV subs to Triax's. I would be willing to bet the superior drivers and better amp are playing a much bigger role in better sound quality over one being ported vs sealed.

Just playing with you my friend. tongue.gif

I get what you are saying in general.

 

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post #1172 of 2101 Old 12-09-2013, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Forgive me for the long post - but I just copied in a couple old responses.

And I'm to understand this was un-bias when you didn't allow anybody to present their FV15HPs for evaluation?

....tongue.gif

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post #1173 of 2101 Old 12-09-2013, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Please reread my comment. It was a humor post. Obviously, I wasn't obvious enough. tongue.gif

-

Oh so you now have more then one person reading your replies to their posts and not seeing the humor? wink.giftongue.gif

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post #1174 of 2101 Old 12-09-2013, 06:09 PM
 
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I'm okay with folks not getting my humor as it's a trait we all have to exhibit.

"Dry Humor"

I try to add humor based emoticons to help folks understand that I'm not being serious as was displayed in the post you're commenting on in the quote box below.

Quote:
Nope. But that's only because I've heard so few subwoofers. I'll have to take your word (and anybody else's) that they sound different.

...biggrin.gif

As the saying goes, "Don't quite your day-job." I'd follow that advice but being retired, I don't have a job, not to quit.

(the above is an example of my "dry humor.")

Some get it, others don't, could be a provincial thing.

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post #1175 of 2101 Old 12-09-2013, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm okay with folks not getting my humor as it's a trait we all have to exhibit.

"Dry Humor"

I try to add humor based emoticons to help folks understand that I'm not being serious as was displayed in the post you're commenting on in the quote box below.
As the saying goes, "Don't quite your day-job." I'd follow that advice but being retired, I don't have a job, not to quit.

(the above is an example of my "dry humor.")

Some get it, others don't, could be a provincial thing.

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You do realize I'm only teasing you right, so there's no reason to explain things. wink.gif

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post #1176 of 2101 Old 12-09-2013, 08:06 PM
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I wish Ironhead would chime back in.

Ever since I read The Mighty Keith Yates' Way Down Deep series almost 10 years ago, I knew he was onto something no one else had done or has since.

The perfect way to see what a sub is doing is to SpecLag graph its presentation. Of course, Yates did the tests outdoors, but when you compare that to indoors you have it all in one graph.

Anyway, here's his outdoor result for the top gun in his series, the huge Genelec ported sub, tuned to 20 Hz, playing a scene from Pearl Harbor, digital graph vs mic'd graph:



Clearly, there's nothing below tune. In fact, technically, a 20 Hz tune is down -3dB at 20 Hz and Yates' measurement of the Genelec shows it's down even a tad more than that at 20 Hz, which is clearly reflected in the SL graph.

So then, folks say their ported sub has "usable output to 'x' Hz below tune with room gain". That is the crux of the recent discussion. My input is that I had a 20 Hz tuned ported sub level matched and with identical FR above tune with my sealed system (one of then anyway), and:

I did not see much available from room gain below tune and the SL graph shows it as well:

http://i.picasion.com/pic76/519a94c7817c279a8f334e4ca43fbfa7.gif

I cannot see how anyone would not notice the rather huge difference in presentation between the sealed system and the ported sub. No one here missed it. Maybe if the sub is being pushed hard enough the harmonics change the presentation, but it will never be able to add the missing octaves.
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post #1177 of 2101 Old 12-09-2013, 08:23 PM
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I wish Ironhead would chime back in.

I'll be right with you Bosso.. rolleyes.gif



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post #1178 of 2101 Old 12-10-2013, 02:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

You do realize I'm only teasing you right, so there's no reason to explain things. wink.gif

Sorry. Seriously thought you were kindly (defensively) bagging on me and an explanation was in order as I understand, not everybody gets my humor and sometimes I find it necessary to fill folks in that I'm kidding. In real life, we don't have benefit of little emoticons hanging over our heads.

(Zing! You got me)

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post #1179 of 2101 Old 12-10-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I'll be right with you Bosso.. rolleyes.gif

Having been involved in large scale construction for decades, I get it ...
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post #1180 of 2101 Old 12-10-2013, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Having been involved in large scale construction for decades, I get it ...

That's one heck of a profession! uhhh... do you get this smile.gif

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post #1181 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I dont believe your experience has anything to do with ported vs sealed. You have to compare apples to apples. lets face it you went from 2600.00 worth of subwoofage to 6000.00. If there was not a dramatic difference in sound quality I would be very disappointed. The Triax has 4kw and 132lbs worth of drivers. The XV30 has maybe 40-50lbs worth of drivers and 750watts.
My last comment will be NO sub will be complete ported or sealed with the companionship of JTR Noesis 212's FACT! tongue.gif
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post #1182 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 02:42 PM
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Just an fyi. The differnce between a 2.5 star system and a 3.5 for 10 and 4.0 reference above is staggering!!! (I am in the latter now after adding a second xs30)

Wooooooot!!!!!!

A 5.0 system would just blow my mind.....

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post #1183 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 03:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Just an fyi. The differnce between a 2.5 star system and a 3.5 for 10 and 4.0 reference above is staggering!!! (I am in the latter now after adding a second xs30)

Kinda got lost what you were trying to post in your above, when you posted: "The differnce between a 2.5 star system and a 3.5 for 10..." confused.gif
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post #1184 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Forgive me for the long post - but I just copied in a couple old responses. I have a bit of new text in bold font to address Reef's and my aside.
Honestly,

I think the final results were too close to call no matter how you slice it. The top shelf subs were all within a couple percentage points of each other. Here was my commentary on the scoring.

As to identifying ported vs. sealed. Here is the outcome of the blind votes:
All considered this is terrible accuracy when you consider we had a bunch of avsforum subwoofer aficionados as the blind voters, All went in thinking they could clearly tell the difference between ported and sealed. My favorite example was HuskerOmaha who exuberantly preferred ported during the blind listening music tests --- this after berating ported for months and months before the meet. wink.gif Greg and I are friends, and I’ll give him a bit of crap on that as long as we remain such.

FWIW - I do think the subs have a different sound or characteristic to them. I'm not yet sure how much of that is EQ/frequency response and available headroom vs. ported or sealed alignment. But I expect it's boils out to mostly the former differences and a lot less the alignment (sealed vs. ported) differences on subs --- given generally equivalent quality and capability.


I think that the I Nuke was not setup correctly in that shootout and makes any data misleading from the posted results. There is something about the I Nuke 15 Hz tuned. The I Nuke lowest point to boost a frequency is at 20 Hz. The I Nuke 3000 DSP should have been setup in bridge mode, sealed sub should have had a bass boost, Neutrik speaker connector may not have been properly connected, and only the A input on the I Nuke should have been used in that shootout.

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post #1185 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I think that the I Nuke was not setup correctly in that shootout and makes any data misleading from the posted results. There is something about the I Nuke 15 Hz tuned. The I Nuke lowest point to boost a frequency is at 20 Hz.

What do you mean?

All the settings we used at that meet were listed in the first few posts, including the exact iNuke DSP settings - with screenprints. I don't know what you refer to?

To your point, during Friday night's setup period we saved the documented DSP settings on the iNuke DSP 3000 amp. We then recalled the saved settings on Saturday for the meet and Sunday for the retest. There is no secret to what we did. It's all publically published, and the settings were blessed by the sub owner. The owner of the 18.1 pair was very enthusiastic about the way the subs sounded in my room on Friday night. He stated they sounded the best he had ever heard them sound coupled to the iNuke DSP 3000, as witnessed by several other avsforum members who were present - HuskerOmaha, kwarney, and deserdome. PM them if you don't want to take my exclusive word for it. Take that for what you will.

Take Note:The iNuke was not out of gas on the musical clips at all at the volumes auditioned as verified during the Sunday afternoon's retest time. The clip lights never engaged for any of the musical demo pieces during the retest at the standardized volumes, and we played and replayed the deepest notes, and the loudest sections. There were no clip lights on the slow sine wave, and no clip lights on the Bass I love you track. The biggest controversy with the CHT sub's performance from the people who felt the CHT were treated unfairly was that people said they were underpowered for dynamic sections on the iNuke DSP 3000 amp. Two conflicts to that. 1) the owner chose to use the iNuke DSP 3000, despite my verbal caution on Friday night that the bad sounds we heard during Friday night's setup demos for the movie section and sine wave bottom note would be unacceptable in the next day's meet when compared to the more expensive subs. To that verbal caution I issued the owner, as witnessed by the aforementioned AVSforum attendees - the 18.1 owner said that his subs sounded the best he'd ever heard the subs sound, and if he wanted to proceed as it was, saying how good they sounded would over-ride the possibility or expectation of a few bad noises. He also mentioned he was afraid his Dayton amp would power off, when I questioned if we should consider using that amp. Also noteworthy, on Sunday's retest to see where the amp was clipping - - - the music section never clipped the amp - so whatever recognition the 18.1 pair received for their performance in the music section was merited on their own ability, and not due to the amp. (since no clipping was observed).
For the movies one could argue the iNuke amp hurt their perofrmance, but given the owner's blessing, and fears of the Dayton amp turning off, it could also be argued the iNuke didn't hurt their scores. I personally STRONGLY believe the CHT would have performed worse in the blind results if powered by the Dayton. This was certainly made my belief after witnessing the two amps back to back on Sunday's retest timeframe and hearing how much weaker the Dayton amp preformed the standardized demo tracks - both music and movies. There was no umpf using the Dayton amp in my room. none. The CHT owner at the time agreed fully with me, and thought the 18.1 subs again sounded great on Sunday, verbally questioning why the subs sounded poor during the blind demo on Saturday, since the subs sounded great (in his opinion) on Friday night and sounded great (in his opinion) on Sunday with the iNuke, since the same DSP settings were used on all three occassions? Answer --- Because on Friday Night and Sunday the 18.1 wasn't compared to subs that cost several times and much are were MUCH more capable. This wasn't a behind the curtain type setup. There were three of us involved in setup, and several others who observed the process. The CHT 18.1 owner was one of the setup guys, the HSU owner was on of the setup guys, and I was one of the setup guys. We all watched and verified each setup step, which is why we didn't make any known mistakes over the course of the setup. We had three pairs of eyes verifying everything and a written checklist to follow on each occassion. Vendors, Mark Seaton and Jeff Permanian were also present for the setup, but just observed. They did not offer advice, even when we initially asked for their opinion on a couple matters relating to sub positioning and crossover levels. They took the wise position of not being involved in anything at all - lest someone cry foul.

Any of the test results can be repeated by anyone with CHT subs and a DSP 3000 amp interested in doing so since we documented all settings to the nth degree, and were able to repeat the issue on three occassions - Friday night, Saturday during the blind meet, and Sunday in the retest timeframe. I offered the retest results verified through on Sunday thorugh PM to Craig Chase before they were published so he could try to recreate the problem with his own iNuke DSP 3000 amp he owned at the time on a pair of 18.1 subs. Seems like something he'd be interested in if he truly felt his subs were misjudged!?!?! I offered to e-mail them to him, snail mail them to him, or whatever, but somehow get him the results. Ominimic captures, screenprints, video, etc. He wasn't interested. My theory is the only reason he wouldn't be interested, is because he already knew this was to be expected or could recreate the issue from what we'd already published without the additional retest data, which showed the same thing as the meet results. There is a heck of a lot more I'd like to say here about the frustrations I encountered afterward in dealing with CHT through PM, my deleted posts on his public forum, with him publically saying I wasn't responding (we have screen captures of some of those in my 2012 thread) etc. and just generally having my integrity and honest intentions attacked. But I'll just let this post stand at the above without the other gory details. The information above addresses your specific comment. The above details are honest specifics as they relate to the meet setup. Those who know me wouldn't question my integrity otherwise. If you'd like to further question the results of our 2012 thread, please do so in that thread, as that would be a really off topic here. I'll be happy to respond there, though I think we've pretty much addressed everything commonly questions in spades throughout the course of that thread.

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post #1186 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

What?

All the settings we used were listed in the first few posts, including the exact iNuke DSP settings - with screenprints. I don't know what you refer to.

I just did a quick look over the last several pages in this thread a did not find anything on the settings. If it was in the original shootout please provide a link. Were the subs using the I Nuke setup as I have stated? I don't mind being corrected if I am in error. I have several I Nuke 3000 DSP unit and have test the different setting with my subwoofer and the result will differ if not setup correctly.

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post #1187 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 03:49 PM
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Post #3 for the iNuke DSP settings and AVR settings, and graphs showing resulting FR.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012#post_21492270

and Post #2
in the section entitled "Sub X didn't preform as well as I expected - did you do any retesting to see what happened?"

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post #1188 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Kinda got lost what you were trying to post in your above, when you posted: "The differnce between a 2.5 star system and a 3.5 for 10..." confused.gif
Sorry. My single xs30 was 2.5 at 10 hz and 3.0 above

After adding a second it has jumped to. 3.5at 10hz and 4.0 reference at 12.5 18 and 20hz

That additional star difference is staggering in actual output

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post #1189 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 04:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Sorry. My single xs30 was 2.5 at 10 hz and 3.0 above

That works. tongue.gif I realized it was a typo but I couldn't make it work in my head.

Quote:
After adding a second it has jumped to. 3.5at 10hz and 4.0 reference at 12.5 18 and 20hz

That additional star difference is staggering in actual output

My, then we're in store for an "uber" treat once UPS releases the hostages of ours they're holding. biggrin.gif

At best, on an exaggerated good day, our system would qualify as a one star system. So we'll be going from a one star system to a four star system.

(i have warned the wife)
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post #1190 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

That works. tongue.gif I realized it was a typo but I couldn't make it work in my head.
My, then we're in store for an "uber" treat once UPS releases the hostages of ours they're holding. biggrin.gif

At best, on an exaggerated good day, our system would qualify as a one star system. So we'll be going from a one star system to a four star system.

(i have warned the wife)
Holy cow what a jump that will be!!!

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post #1191 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 05:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Holy cow what a jump that will be!!!

...biggrin.gif

We just received a blu-ray copy of U-571 and I've read the depth charge scenes are quite the bass fest.

Comments like yours keep me quite wound up. The only thing I don't like is the thought of having to get these heavy beasts positioned and dialed in.
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post #1192 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 06:58 PM
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Thanks Archaea for the link. I read the info on setup and the amp was not setup correctly for max performance. I am not suprise the JTR clipped the amp. The most power delivered to the subs would have been a little over 400 watts. People may not have been using that amp for subs much at the time and my own personal experience with the amp supports that it is easy setup incorrectly. I know I did and there was a learning curve on using that particular proamp for sub duty. All the conclusions drawn on the sealed subs for that shootout are not valid. But, the participants observations were true.biggrin.gif I did not see any info on how the neutrik speakon was setup. My guess is that it would have been wrong also.

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post #1193 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

My last comment will be NO sub will be complete ported or sealed with the companionship of JTR Noesis 212's FACT! tongue.gif

I would love to hear them!
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post #1194 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Thanks Archaea for the link. I read the info on setup and the amp was not setup correctly for max performance. I am not suprise the JTR clipped the amp. The most power delivered to the subs would have been a little over 400 watts. People may not have been using that amp for subs much at the time and my own personal experience with the amp supports that it is easy setup incorrectly. I know I did and there was a learning curve on using that particular proamp for sub duty. All the conclusions drawn on the sealed subs for that shootout are not valid. But, the participants observations were true.biggrin.gif I did not see any info on how the neutrik speakon was setup. My guess is that it would have been wrong also.

What on earth are you talking about? You post exactly how you set it up and show everyone how "you" do it right.

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post #1195 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

What on earth are you talking about? You post exactly how you set it up and show everyone how "you" do it right.
The I Nuke amp

Reference was made using data from that particular GTG. When designing an experiment, if the initial design is wrong then the data supporting any conclusion is flawed. The I Nuke amp is a pro-amp. In stereo and dual mono at best the amp can deliver 440 watts according to Berhinger. Some independent test points to the delivered wattage being lower. In bridge mode the amp can deliver 1520/3000 watts according to Berhinger into an 8/4 ohm load. For a GTG the maximum deliverable wattage should be used to level the playing field. The Neutrik speakon connector can be wired to deliver the wattage for stereo, dual mono and bridge mode. There are 4 slots in the connector for wires, +1, +2, -1, and -2. Depending on how the wires are connected will effect how the amp operates. Unless someone can show data where all of this was taken into account, the amps were not setup correctly for normal performance..If 2 sealed 8 ohm subs were used the sub should have been connected in a parallel wiring configurations and the amp set to a 4 ohm load. Wiring would be different if two 4 ohm subs were used on the same amp.

Seeing that people are asking what am I talking about further my assumption that the people at the GTG were not familiar with that particular amp. I have stated that when I first started using the amps in my system that I made some of the same mistakes. My assumption in no way questions the knowledge, intent or credibility of anyone involved at the GTG.

My 8 ohm subs are wired in parallel , amp is set to bridge mode/4 ohm and the Nuetrik speakon is wired positive to +1 and negative to +2. Only input A and channel A on the amp are used. I have discussed this setup with Berhinger and have did output reading in my HT system. This is the best way to setup my 8 ohm subs to the amp. My apology for side tracking the thread from ULF scores.

The PEQ should have also be done after autocalibration which requires raising the low end of sealed subs by 3-6 db and proper adjustment of the Q or bandwidth to evenly elevate the LF's. The Berhinger I Nuke amps are outstanding amps for subwoofer use due to their DSP but, need more detail attention for proper setup compared to some other amps.

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post #1196 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 09:51 PM
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Why do you assume they had it wired wrong just because you did?

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post #1197 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 10:02 PM
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I didn't, and still don't know what you are talking about in regards to your first post 15Hz comment about the iNuke. N8DOGG was not at the meet.

But, I know exactly what you are talking about in regards to the newer comment about bridged vs dual mono and which pins to modify in the neutirk connector if using bridged. And I reject your conclusion for the reasons I already noted. As mentioned in the meet thread, and showed in the screen prints on post three we ran the subs dual mono off the amp. I suspect, if you read the thread, or saw Craig's rebuttals you know this. Each sub on one channel. Pin +1 and Pin -1. We discussed trying the subs out bridged to a combined four ohm load on Friday night, but again, the owner was very happy with the sound as it was and said he didn't want to mess with it.

Most importantly:
No clip lights on the music section means the amp was not over whelmed, during the music audition. Sunday's retest a/b session with the lesser performing "optimal" Dayton was telling. The CHT "recommended" config with the Dayton amp was weak in my room on the demo clips used in the meet and it was apparent to me thereafter why the 18.1 owner preferred the iNuke amp setup immediately on Friday night without even needing to audition the standard CHT recommended/bundled Dayton amp.

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post #1198 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 10:41 PM
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What exactly was the expectation by CHT?

To win the meet?

A look at the drivers in play would reveal the flaw in that hope.

JTR Captivator and Orbit Shifter driver


CHT 18.1 driver


The CHT performed along with their pricing. They did fine, better than the Klipsch, and in line with the HSU, according to nine blind voters. They may have fared a smidge better on the movie scores with an amp that didn't ever clip but they were not gonna catch the top four based on vast capability/headroom differences. The passive ported Captivator subs rebooted the same iNuke amp three times and clipped the same amp constantly on the more difficult tracks during their audition. They still scored within 3% of first place as I mentioned on the previous page's post.

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post #1199 of 2101 Old 12-11-2013, 11:46 PM
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It is no point in discussing the results since the subs were not setup properly, no matter who OK's it. When I noticed a few things done incorrectly it questions the attention to detail on other facets of the setup. My comment are only informational on the proper setup of the subwoofers. This far out from the GTG the setup problem can't be reversed or rationalized to fix the improper setup. Just the fact that dual mono was used is a major mistake. This is just what happen and is past history, A lesson can be learned for future use with this amp. No one likes being wrong but, we share our knowledge base on this forum so that we can become better educated on audio science. The PEQ graphs for the amp also do not look correct.

I am not trying to change any opinion of the results in that GTG. I have done research in other areas and research protocol design and if the design or execution of the design is flaw, results are flawed. There is no way around that particular point

Archeaa you are a true gentleman to share the info on that GTG. Our primary purpose is to share knowledge on this forum. The setup was a problem with people not being familiar with this particular amp. If one took a 200 watts amp and only used 60 watts in a high spl contest against another 200 watts amp working properly, the results would be flawed concerning the amp max output and handling demanding loads. The info I shared is for anyone using the Berhinger I Nuke amps with any brand of passive sub.

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post #1200 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 07:11 AM
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I hate to bring this up again and it is not about CHT, any speakers or subs, it is just that so many bring up CHT. Comparing a $400 sub vs a $1500 sub is obvious, especially sealed vs ported. You know where I stand as I have mentioned this all the time. You guys always seem to compare $6000 worth of subs against $1000-$3000 worth of subs and say how the $6000 was better or in another league. I would say the same thing! The question is what happens when you put $6000 worth of the cheaper subs up against the $6000 more expensive subs. That is how I compare things and why I say what I do. I mean if we had a GTG at my house we could compare one CapS2 vs an OS vs my IB and see what wins. I had dual Cap1000's that cost as much as 4 18.2's so we could compare that as well(actually we can't, I don't own them anymore) but I bet people would not pick the usual suspects. I don't expect dual CS 18.1's to equal a single Cap, not even close near 17-25hz. It is what it is. I have been moving around my SEOS and 888LP and I just wanted to say the I think Jeff makes his speakers with concrete or bricks, damn they are heavy for little guys!
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