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post #1201 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 07:21 AM
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mktheater - the original intention was to have four 18.1 subs for the meet, a pair didn't show up.

Price is definately part of the equation. When you look at the results, they fall out as one would expect according to price. I don't see how anybody expected the pair of CHT 18.1 to beat the 2-3x more expensive subs.

derrickdj1 is correct in that at the time the iNuke DSP3000 was not well vetted, and we didn't know the 8ohm stereo (or dual mono in this case) capability was low in comparison to the four ohm bridged. Again this detail does not affect the music portion of the demo. As I've said before, the sub driver was being overdriven on the lowest notes during the music and was making bad noises on the bass sine sweep on the lowest notes and the on the bass I love you track -- without clip lights. That's not a amp problem, thats an excursion problem. Chase likes to say 200-400 watts from the iNuke amp at 8ohm per channel can't bottom out his woofer because it can handle 1000-1500 watts. At what frequency are we comparing the ability to bottom? The woofer might handle 1000 watts at 100hz?, but can it handle 1000 watts at 15hz in the sealed 18.1 enclosure? It seems that answer is no. Then how many watts can it handle at 15hz? Well clearly less than the iNuke amp was capable of delivering before the amp encountered clipping. I asked that question in his forum in direct response to one of his posts asking me how I could explain that the iNuke's paltry output could bottom out his sub, and he deleted my post. One of three legitimate posts on this topic he deleted of mine before I quit going to his forum.

derrickdj1 is not correct in thinking he can question all matters related to our meet because of one issue he takes with one component of the meet. We documented everything. Please list in the 2012 thread other elements you take issue with or invalidate the test. We can talk through them.


At this point I'm going to multiquote all of the 2012 subwoofer related discussion and move it over to the 2012 thread. We can continue discussion there if you'd like.


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post #1202 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 07:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I hate to bring this up again and it is not about CHT, any speakers or subs, it is just that so many bring up CHT. Comparing a $400 sub vs a $1500 sub is obvious, especially sealed vs ported. You know where I stand as I have mentioned this all the time. You guys always seem to compare $6000 worth of subs against $1000-$3000 worth of subs and say how the $6000 was better or in another league.

Well, I can't afford a set of three S2s so I'll just have to be happy with the pair we have on order with an eye on a future purchase of a third. In the end, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them one has to throw at a problem.

Three of what we ordered, $3,508.00.

vs

Three S2s which have a purchase price of about $9000.00

(not counting any multiple, JTR, discounts)

Yes, there's huge disparity in price and yes, agreeing with you, there's a huge disparity in performance.

(and yes Santa, i'll take three S2s for Christmas)

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post #1203 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I hate to bring this up again and it is not about CHT, any speakers or subs, it is just that so many bring up CHT. Comparing a $400 sub vs a $1500 sub is obvious, especially sealed vs ported. You know where I stand as I have mentioned this all the time. You guys always seem to compare $6000 worth of subs against $1000-$3000 worth of subs and say how the $6000 was better or in another league. I would say the same thing! The question is what happens when you put $6000 worth of the cheaper subs up against the $6000 more expensive subs. That is how I compare things and why I say what I do. I mean if we had a GTG at my house we could compare one CapS2 vs an OS vs my IB and see what wins. I had dual Cap1000's that cost as much as 4 18.2's so we could compare that as well(actually we can't, I don't own them anymore) but I bet people would not pick the usual suspects. I don't expect dual CS 18.1's to equal a single Cap, not even close near 17-25hz. It is what it is. I have been moving around my SEOS and 888LP and I just wanted to say the I think Jeff makes his speakers with concrete or bricks, damn they are heavy for little guys!

I've never been a fan of bringing price into a comparison. The only time it's relevant, IMO, is after David kicks Goliath's butt it's then cool to note that David charges less. The whole "Well, it SHOULD be better cause it costs 'x' as much" is BS. That just tells me if I want better, don't waste my money on the pretender who claims to be better. That's just common sense.

Remember, it was your buddy who favorably compared his subs to DIY subs that cost 5X his Eminence pro sound driver. So, is it OK to make false claims using price, or not OK to present the facts without mentioning price?

Honestly, Arch is defending his honor. He went so far beyond most of those who have preceded him in putting together a great GTG and presenting the data as if the reader was there. That's no trivial exercise. And he has been pi$$ed all over by CHT worshippers since, including yourself as quoted above and referring to him as "you guys".

Regarding statements about what sub will "win", you really tend to mean what sub will play louder. If your claim suggests that a Cap S2 will not do reference in your room, that should be mentioned. Otherwise, reference is reference. SPL is accomplished by multiples and has no other relevance.

You've claimed that 'x' CHT sealed subs played reference in your room to below 5 Hz. I call BS. I don't care if you had 50 of them, it was not set up for reference to 5 Hz and any posted measurements to that effect are not reliable vs the facts of the matter.

So, IMHO, Arch should be free to defend his honor in any thread where the subject presents itself. He isn't making it about any particular sub, others are.

Otherwise, what is a sub that has no ULF capability doing in a thread that scores subs with ULF capability?
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post #1204 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 08:06 AM
 
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Along with other intrinsic details, for the rest of us mortals, price/performance is key to the subwoofer purchase that we all know as: "best bang-for-the-buck."

(just saying)

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post #1205 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Along with other intrinsic details, for the rest of us mortals, price/performance is key to the subwoofer purchase that we all know as: "best bang-for-the-buck."

(just saying)

-

well done...it seems like we have an elitist on our hands rolleyes.gif

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post #1206 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 08:26 AM
 
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well done...it seems like we have an elitist on our hands rolleyes.gif

...rolleyes.gif...biggrin.gif
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post #1207 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I've never been a fan of bringing price into a comparison. The only time it's relevant, IMO, is after David kicks Goliath's butt it's then cool to note that David charges less. The whole "Well, it SHOULD be better cause it costs 'x' as much" is BS. That just tells me if I want better, don't waste my money on the pretender who claims to be better. That's just common sense.

Remember, it was your buddy who favorably compared his subs to DIY subs that cost 5X his Eminence pro sound driver. So, is it OK to make false claims using price, or not OK to present the facts without mentioning price?

Honestly, Arch is defending his honor. He went so far beyond most of those who have preceded him in putting together a great GTG and presenting the data as if the reader was there. That's no trivial exercise. And he has been pi$$ed all over by CHT worshippers since, including yourself as quoted above and referring to him as "you guys".

Regarding statements about what sub will "win", you really tend to mean what sub will play louder. If your claim suggests that a Cap S2 will not do reference in your room, that should be mentioned. Otherwise, reference is reference. SPL is accomplished by multiples and has no other relevance.

You've claimed that 'x' CHT sealed subs played reference in your room to below 5 Hz. I call BS. I don't care if you had 50 of them, it was not set up for reference to 5 Hz and any posted measurements to that effect are not reliable vs the facts of the matter.

So, IMHO, Arch should be free to defend his honor in any thread where the subject presents itself. He isn't making it about any particular sub, others are.

Otherwise, what is a sub that has no ULF capability doing in a thread that scores subs with ULF capability?

I find it funny that you are against me anytime I mention CHT. Did you not say the GTG's don't represent ULF accurately and more of a SPL contest. Defending honor? Where is the fight? Archaea does a fine job and can say whatever. Don't you guys blast me all the time with measurements and such? Why are others exempt? I showed my responses of my subs, I never said they played below 5hz at reference, I never showed a response to 5hz LOL. I would think a sweep to 115 dBs is much harder than a movie. Does a movie contain 115 dBs at 5hz? I never measured THD to 5hz anyways, just 10hz. I never did max sweeps either. I EQ'd flat to 7hz(where they dropped off) and played reference levels with all movies, no clipping, no noises. The only thing I could do is spec lab but my mic rolls off too much to be accurate. If it was accurate I would have spec lab graphs every where. Remember mine were falling off digitally on the low end so I stopped.

Can a S2 hit reference in my room, I don't know, never owned one. I showed my omnimic measurement of my CHT subs, it is as accurate as anyone's who uses omnimic, like Archaea. It is OK to get different opinions.

BTW, I hit 120 dBs at 10hz with 10% THD, RMS sine waves, with the CHT subs. I don't see many people doing THD numbers to see what their subs can do. I don't recall needing 120 dBs at 10hz at reference. If it did, then the subs would make terrible noises during movies because they make terrible noises past 10% THD, I know this because I tested them.
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post #1208 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 08:47 AM
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To the CHT apologists who continue to whine about price differences or setup issues (there's always an excuse with CHT, always) you seem to forget that it's a constant theme at these GTGs.

Look at the '11 "Subfest" at Husker's place. It included an SS-18.2 vs a single Submersive. This is 2 x18's versus 2 x15's. Fair fight, no? Chase would even claim the 18.2 has more displacement than the SubM.

The Submersive won easily, it was preferred across the board. Even Husker, a CHT sub owner at the time had no qualms with admitting the SubM was superior when asked by Craig at the meet.

Price and performance are absolutely not the only considerations. What about aesthetics or overall size? The SS-18.2 takes up twice the space of the SubM. So you think you have extra cash to add another in hopes of finally matching the SubM's performance instead of coming up short with one. Now you've taken up 4x the space in your room... what's the point?

Take the Rythmik FV15HP and the CHT VS-18.1- Craig loves to throw out the numbers it hits with a $7K amp, but when Ricci tested the amp Chase actually sells, it comes up short versus the FV15HP.

Comparing normal prices and shipping rates, they are nearly identically priced.

One is 18" wide, 24" deep, and 24" tall in black oak vinyl. The other is 22" wide, 22" deep, and freaking 40" tall in matte black.

One gives you two port tunes, extension and damping settings, gain, phase, variable crossover point and slope, SSF and single band PEQ controls. The other gives you SSF, LPF and gain controls.

And people still act like it's a no brainer to go with Chase stuff. Like we just haven't "gotten" it yet.
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post #1209 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

To the CHT apologists who continue to whine about price differences or setup issues (there's always an excuse with CHT, always) you seem to forget that it's a constant theme at these GTGs.

Look at the '11 "Subfest" at Husker's place. It included an SS-18.2 vs a single Submersive. This is 2 x18's versus 2 x15's. Fair fight, no? Chase would even claim the 18.2 has more displacement than the SubM.

The Submersive won easily, it was preferred across the board. Even Husker, a CHT sub owner at the time had no qualms with admitting the SubM was superior when asked by Craig at the meet.

Price and performance are absolutely not the only considerations. What about aesthetics or overall size? The SS-18.2 takes up twice the space of the SubM. So you think you have extra cash to add another in hopes of finally matching the SubM's performance instead of coming up short with one. Now you've taken up 4x the space in your room... what's the point?

Take the Rythmik FV15HP and the CHT VS-18.1- Craig loves to throw out the numbers it hits with a $7K amp, but when Ricci tested the amp Chase actually sells, it comes up short versus the FV15HP.

Comparing normal prices and shipping rates, they are nearly identically priced.

One is 18" wide, 24" deep, and 24" tall in black oak vinyl. The other is 22" wide, 22" deep, and freaking 40" tall in matte black.

One gives you two port tunes, extension and damping settings, gain, phase, variable crossover point and slope, SSF and single band PEQ controls. The other gives you SSF, LPF and gain controls.

And people still act like it's a no brainer to go with Chase stuff. Like we just haven't "gotten" it yet.

I love the perspective of Chase haters as well, it goes both ways Matt.

Here was my omnimic of the 18.2, with no EQ.

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post #1210 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 09:05 AM
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Edited for MK's mistake.
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post #1211 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 09:30 AM
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Oops, that was meant for Bosso.
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post #1212 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 09:36 AM
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Understood, it didn't make sense with the quoted post and you said my name too. biggrin.gif Removed the last one in response to your mistake.
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post #1213 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 09:37 AM
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OK to your post, Define wins hands down? The scores were not that far apart. The prices are. Of course there are other things to consider besides performance. Looks, size, performance, and price are the big ones. Do I think the submersive is a better sub than the 18.2, it should be. I have never owned one to compare myself. Define better? Size and looks for sure! Were all the subs optimized to their best abilities? Same response? These are the same questions I get when I make comparisons so I expect the same treatment elsewhere.
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post #1214 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 10:00 AM
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Hands down meaning no one thought the CHT 18.2 was better than the SubM. Everyone jumped up and down because only 2 CHT 18.1s were compared against the dual SubM at the KC blind test. There was supposed to be four, and that would have changed everything, they said (including you, MK). But Husker's meet was exactly that, an 18.2 vs a single SubM. No one preferred the 18.2 to the SubM.

Again, prices are not that different. All you get for the price of a Submersive is two SS-18.2s; adding another means you can only hope the 2x18's were being choked by headroom and you need more to compete with the SubM's 2x15's. For your gamble you are rewarded with two huge black boxes, where just one is significantly larger than the SubM.

In the end, the Chase sub is using an 18" with 12mm xmax per Eminence. Per Ricci, physical limits at 20mm, it has nothing more. There's nothing to see here, pack 40 of them in your room if you want, no one's stopping you.

Price has nothing to do with why a subpar product continually gets outperformed by ones that were properly designed for their intended purpose.
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post #1215 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 10:05 AM
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Bosso, one more thing, if the CHT sub does not belong in this thread for ULF then why just this sub, all ported and horn subs should go bye bye as well. The OS is a sealed horn so it is at least similar to a sealed Cap so it can remain.

My question is I was getting low end from my CHT subs but it required more boost to account for the roll off. It did not have headroom down low though for very spirited levels. Many of these GTG's use the omnimic so I showed a response graph with one to be relevant. My REW showed the same thing so I ditched the omnimic.
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post #1216 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 10:13 AM
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OK, then explain how one can get reference in their home to even 10hz then? Something has to be happening. The CHT subs do not distort like other subs, when the THD goes up to 11% they sound like crap, and not by a little. I have never heard that in my room, ever, except with sine wave testing. Never during a movie. I don't disagree that the submersive is a better sub.
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post #1217 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The CHT subs do not distort like other subs, when the THD goes up to 11% they sound like crap, and not by a little.

What do you mean by this, and how is it an advantage for Chase?

They are 12mm xmax 18's that hit a wall at 20mm. If you put together a system assuming they are 20mm 18's, yeah you're going to have a bad time. If you put 8 of them in a small room like you did, you'd probably get away without offensive sounds.
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post #1218 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 12:22 PM
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Not an advantage at all just that there is no mistaking that sound with distortion. The CHT subs I had were either clean or sound bad. Many of my subs would distort during sine wave tests but still sound really good, like 12-16% THD. The eD's 13av2's and F-20's could play more THD and sound great.
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post #1219 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I find it funny that you are against me anytime I mention CHT. Did you not say the GTG's don't represent ULF accurately and more of a SPL contest. Defending honor? Where is the fight? Archaea does a fine job and can say whatever. Don't you guys blast me all the time with measurements and such? Why are others exempt? I showed my responses of my subs, I never said they played below 5hz at reference, I never showed a response to 5hz LOL. I would think a sweep to 115 dBs is much harder than a movie. Does a movie contain 115 dBs at 5hz? I never measured THD to 5hz anyways, just 10hz. I never did max sweeps either. I EQ'd flat to 7hz(where they dropped off) and played reference levels with all movies, no clipping, no noises. The only thing I could do is spec lab but my mic rolls off too much to be accurate. If it was accurate I would have spec lab graphs every where. Remember mine were falling off digitally on the low end so I stopped.

Can a S2 hit reference in my room, I don't know, never owned one. I showed my omnimic measurement of my CHT subs, it is as accurate as anyone's who uses omnimic, like Archaea. It is OK to get different opinions.

BTW, I hit 120 dBs at 10hz with 10% THD, RMS sine waves, with the CHT subs. I don't see many people doing THD numbers to see what their subs can do. I don't recall needing 120 dBs at 10hz at reference. If it did, then the subs would make terrible noises during movies because they make terrible noises past 10% THD, I know this because I tested them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I love the perspective of Chase haters as well, it goes both ways Matt.

Here was my omnimic of the 18.2, with no EQ.


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Bosso, one more thing, if the CHT sub does not belong in this thread for ULF then why just this sub, all ported and horn subs should go bye bye as well. The OS is a sealed horn so it is at least similar to a sealed Cap so it can remain.

My question is I was getting low end from my CHT subs but it required more boost to account for the roll off. It did not have headroom down low though for very spirited levels. Many of these GTG's use the omnimic so I showed a response graph with one to be relevant. My REW showed the same thing so I ditched the omnimic.

Nothing funny about it, sorry if I gave the impression I was attempting humor.

Others don't post hundreds of graphs accompanied by "My computer fell and doesn't work", "I have a new computer and I don't know how it works", "I ran these with correction file off", "Somethings off with these graphs", "I think c-weighting was turned off when I did these", etc.

And no one has ever "blasted" you about it. Several of us have struggled to help you get on track so that you can someday start being consistent with the data you post. You always say you will heed the advice, but so far have not.

As far as the claimed THD @ 120dB @ 'x' Hz, again, the numbers do not jive. A FR trace at an arbitrary level in dBSPL is one thing but in order for a THD claim to have any meaning, the calibration, set up and execution are extremely critical, which is why other members (including myself) rarely care to go through all of that for a dubious result that can be disputed (and should be).

The only THD @ 10 Hz post I remember is this one:

68944b13fc469c0ff1d53057fabd7019.png

It's 110dB and shows a FR that's flat to below 5 Hz. It shows a reduction in THD of 70% or more by room gain.

The FR graph you posted using OM, let's put it on a graph scaled to what the rest of us use and have used for a long time:

af1c45daaf45858306af077beabe7943.jpg

With this FR, there is little chance you read 120dB @ 10 Hz with 10% THD accurately. No room can overcome the naked response of the CC subs. I don't care what boost you claim, it's not my first day with this subject. Look at it by the numbers:

The graph you posted shoes room gain knocking down THD. If you overlay the OM trace you posted onto the THD data, the CC sub sees no reduction in THD from the room. It's shows 22 dB of gain @ 10 Hz, but 20dB of gain @ 20 Hz… no help from the room in reducing 2HD, and so forth. You posted no info on the rig, the setup, the calibration, etc. So, no, I don't believe your THD result is accurate.

This is what I and others have been saying forever; it does not matter what the system that generated this in-room FR can "hit" at 5 or 10 Hz. You calibrate level at cross, not at 5 Hz. Push the system to reference level and you're not gonna hit anything at 5 Hz. This is not a debatable statement. Feel free to continue to debate it anyway, but that will not alter the facts.

Regarding rating resonant systems, this has been addressed. No such sub should be rated below tune.
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post #1220 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 12:46 PM
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With this FR, there is little chance you read 120dB @ 10 Hz with 10% THD accurately. No room can overcome the naked response of the CC subs. I don't care what boost you claim, it's not my first day with this subject. Look at it by the numbers:

+1 now that I can visualize from the graph. Also from just looking at the driver it reminds me of a driver that can get very loud to the right but quite challenged to the left/down low, obvious reasoning.

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post #1221 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 12:51 PM
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Cue MK's response of, "all I care about is <20Hz because I can EQ everything above that so it doesn't matter."

In 3...2...
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post #1222 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 12:52 PM
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Great post, Dave, both with regards to James' constantly changing measurements, and the last line regarding the resonant system ratings.

I've been thinking about something separately that I'll ping you about in the near future.
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post #1223 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Cue MK's response of, "all I care about is <20Hz because I can EQ everything above that so it doesn't matter."

In 3...2...

The master of out of context, no wonder why you get banned all the time, at least Bosso's post is helping. All I did was buy measuring gear per the guys on the forum and use them to measure. You know I have always mentioned what I have used with every graph I have posted at the time. The omnimic graph should be obvious. I also measured them with REW. I am trying to get the measuring thing right and keep buying and using equipment one tells me. It is wrong, then I change, then it is right but same graph, they both can't be right or wrong or the person who said it was wrong was wrong. Bosso, I am not sure what THD graph that was, it was either the F-20 system or one CHT in my room because I measured both. I did the same thing for both of them and the difference at 10hz was 12 dBs with the F-20 being lower by 12 dBs at 10hz. I don't know the absolute numbers but that was the difference in my room and it was felt.

You guys act like I am trying to hide something, I just post what I get and change when asked. I try to do what is asked. Right now I am doing close mic sweeps for Tux so the subs are taking a back seat right now. I got my HDMI computer working with my emc8000 and mobile pre.
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post #1224 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 03:31 PM
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Oh, the out of context fallback again. Nice.

How about this. The last time you posted that same omnimic graph (just 2 days ago), this is what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Here was my response with the 18.2's, maybe the 18.2's were better designed than the 18,1's? My minus 3 dB point was 15hz. I always start at 20hz with my rolloff because anything above can be EQ'd flat.

How's that for context.
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post #1225 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 03:55 PM
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Yeesh.

This thread =

Toe, steve nn and Archaea like this.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #1226 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 07:41 PM
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This thread got **** on.
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post #1227 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 09:42 PM
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WOW! Haven't been on AVS for awhaile.. What the hells going on?
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post #1228 of 2101 Old 12-12-2013, 10:32 PM
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Archeae honor has not been attacked in any manner or any of the participants. This discussion should be simple. It was pointed out that the I Nuke amp was not setup correctly and has went un-noticed for a long time on this forum. I did not comment on the results of the meet because for me, they are not relevant. I had no experience with any of the subs in the GTG at the time and was not an active member on this forum.

The setup problem of the I Nuke amp is a common problem with any new product or technology on the market. Working the bugs out is also common and may be related to easy of use or product design. The Berhiger manual is very vague on proper setup for non pro application. I did not comment on the result of the GTG because, they were effected by the setup of the amp and wished not to get into a discussion on the merits of a particular subwoofer. The focus was only directed at setup of the amp. Arheae was correct in re-opening the old thread and transferring the discussion over to that thread. People are talking about winners? The companies involved in the shootout most likely did not go there to win. In my experience in business, companies participate in events like the GTG to show their product, public relations and target a certain demographic section of the market. This can be based on price, performance, size, aesthetic or a combination of factors. I was at the auto show a couple of years ago, Ford and Mercedes Benz were there. I am sure these two companies were there to display their product, public relations and to targeted a certain demographic section of the car market. I also feel that all the subs in the GTG will target a particular demographic segment of the subwoofer market.

I am also sure that the people involved in the GTG planned to have a fun and productive event. The GTG required hard work and travel by it's participant. The problem with the amp was an unforseen bug at the event. Archeae and myself have had a very informative and educational directed discussion on what should have been done. Neither he nor I need anyone defending our statements or honor.

As to the purpose of this thread, it was created for people to evaluate their ULF score and have some fun. I hope it was not created to include or exclude owners of a particular brand of subwoofer. It seems that the primary purpose is way off track and need to be redirected. Any discussion related to the GTG should be directed to the old thread. I hope the setup information on the Berhinger amp makes it a useful tool for others to use. The amp has a lot of great features and is a solid performer in my HT.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus Five 200 amp, Chase SS 18.2(2), VS 18.1(2), Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
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post #1229 of 2101 Old 12-13-2013, 04:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post

WOW! Haven't been on AVS for awhaile.. What the hells going on?

A bit of a distraction from the main programming?

...confused.gif

...wink.gif
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post #1230 of 2101 Old 12-13-2013, 04:58 AM
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I want my ULF score thread back :'(

Panasonic 65VT30 | Denon x4000 | Emotiva XPA-5 | Emotiva XSP-1 | Emotiva DC-1 | PSB imagine B's |PSB image c5 | PSB B4's | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp
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