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post #1261 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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There is but one person to blame for the many distractions and angst in the last 10 pages or so. The thread was moving along swimmingly before this statement:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Great thread.

This recent discussion, ... quite civil, it's appreciated.
 

 

As soon as I read this, I knew we were doomed....;) :D

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post #1262 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 07:33 AM
 
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LOL!

Kinda like holding your breath until the end of a tight ball game or waiting on the final action of a hard earned field goal.

Yogi Berra: " It ain't over 'til it's over "

...wink.gif

Wish people would get off the minutia and get back the the intent and flavor of the thread.
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post #1263 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

If you want to recreate that suspended floor type sensation you get from floor joist subwoofer shake, it actually can be done without buttkickers. I've never been a fan of buttkickers because you're paying money for something that adds no decibels to your setup. If you want shake AND decibel output, place a sub nearfield to the listening position and cross it over at 40hz to minimize localization. I've had people literally jump out of the couch the first time they heard my system because they thought someone was shaking the couch. That's on concrete with two 12" subs up front and one 18" sub nearfield behind the couch (that's the downside, works best if you have 3 subs). Prior to that setup, I too had floor joist envy, but now, when Cloverfield walks thru the room, it feels like Cloverfield walks thru the room. wink.gif
Your furniture is still firmly anchored on concrete so no, you are not creating the same floating floor sensation. No matter if you are using a nearfield sub or transducers, you at least need to build a platform for your seating to sit on (with enough room for your feet) to get it off the concrete slab to closer mimic the suspended floor effect.

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post #1264 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Post 1 Updated

  • The SI Conversion chart now indicates whether or not Josh Ricci noticed even slight port noise for vented/ported subs in his review. This is indicated by gray shaded areas on the chart. Feel free to double check my work

 

Post 2 Updated - Member scores

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post #1265 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Your furniture is still firmly anchored on concrete so no, you are not creating the same floating floor sensation. No matter if you are using a nearfield sub or transducers, you at least need to build a platform for your seating to sit on (with enough room for your feet) to get it off the concrete slab to closer mimic the suspended floor effect.

My furniture is "firmly anchored"? Did someone bolt it down when i wasn't home? lol man. Have you even tried what I'm suggesting? I actually have spent many many hours watching movies both on conc slab with nearfield sub and on floor joists. And while the direction of movement isn't quite the same, I can say without question the amount of movement is certainly the same and it is every bit as fun. In fact, with nearfield placement on conc slab I needed to cut the gain on the sub to about half (of what it was set to) because it was just so overpowering. So I stand by my statement, yes, there is no need to build a riser to get that sensation. wink.gif

Quit readin my signature ya stupid signature reader.
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post #1266 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 09:57 AM
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There's simply no way a vibration transmission device will ever accurately mimic external excitation from a 200 foot pressure wave. smile.gif

Building a stage for seating is cheap, easy and required if you have more than 1 row. Most people who build a riser to sit on the floor make the mistake of over-building it. It really has little load (seats and sitters) vs structural framing requirements, which are certainly already exceeded in the case of a concrete slab floor.

All one has to do is consult an "Allowable Floor Span Table" and choose joist size and spacing that's just beyond the maximum allowable span. The span chart below is based on L360. That means the Length of the joist divided by 360. For example, if you have a seating stage span of 12 feet, that would be 144 inches divided by 360 = over 3/8" (.4 in.). That's a LOT of allowable floor movement! No way a tactile transducer will ever approach that.

Here's the standard table for L360":



Here's a link for anyone who might like to look further into it:

http://www.awc.org/technical/spantables/tutorial.php

Even following the table to select the max allowable span will provide enough deflection, but assuming one did, that will still allow approximately 750# per seat with all seats taken.

Of course, as I've advocated for a decade, The system must be a 2nd order (sealed) alignment with adequate displacement capability, the system must be fed a clean signal to 5 Hz, the signal must be properly shaped to alter the anechoic response of the system to properly mate with Room Gain to result in a flat-to-5 Hz in-room response and the system must be sufficient to handle that signal at the desired playback level.

Nothing in, nothing out. But, do it right and there's no comparison, IMO.
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post #1267 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

My furniture is "firmly anchored"? Did someone bolt it down when i wasn't home? lol man. Have you even tried what I'm suggesting? I actually have spent many many hours watching movies both on conc slab with nearfield sub and on floor joists. And while the direction of movement isn't quite the same, I can say without question the amount of movement is certainly the same and it is every bit as fun. In fact, with nearfield placement on conc slab I needed to cut the gain on the sub to about half (of what it was set to) because it was just so overpowering. So I stand by my statement, yes, there is no need to build a riser to get that sensation. wink.gif


I just don't agree that you get the same sensation, but to be fair I have not tried exactly what you are doing. By "firmly anchored", I simply meant your seating cant be moved through the actual concrete/floor like it does on a suspended floor or even a platform built to flex. I do have one of my PB13s nearfield and I can certainly feel it interact with my couch/platform, but the BKs/platform provide a sensation that my subs simply cant on my concrete slab floor (I am not the only one who feels this way if you read the various shaker threads on AVS). With a platform, assuming you have not over-engineered it (you want it to flex), not only do you get the couch sensation like you get, but the actual floor has movement/shake (the platform) and especially when you have enough room for your feet (which is important if not reclined back) on the platform so they also get the effect, it gets as close to mimicking a floating floor sensation as you can get in a concrete slab room IMO and from my experience (my first HT had a suspended floor). Of course it is not the exact same, but it gets as close as you can get.

As wth718 mentioned above though, we have taken this thread off the rails enough with the shaker chat and I wont respond anymore in here out of respect for the thread (sorry we took it this far!). Shoot me a PM if you want to continue the conversation. I enjoy talking about it and I am certainly open to hear more of what you have to say even if our experiences don't quite line up. It's all good. smile.gif

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post #1268 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

The SI Conversion chart now indicates whether or not Josh Ricci noticed even slight port noise for vented/ported subs in his review. This is indicated by gray shaded areas on the chart. Feel free to double check my work

Thanks for the added information! That must have been tedious reading through all the reviews.

One thing that update taught me is ported subs are prone to port noise. Especially when trying for extension.

Why do manufacturers run port sizes so close to the edge for chuffing?
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post #1269 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie Isaac View Post

One thing that update taught me is ported subs are prone to port noise. Especially when trying for extension.
Why do manufacturers run port sizes so close to the edge for chuffing?
Two factors there be here. One, the larger the port area the longer the length of the duct required to tune it to the same frequency. To make the port of adequate area may make the cabinet larger than the marketing department is happy with. Two, if you use the commonly seen option of plugging a port to lower the tuning frequency for lower extension you're reducing port area, with chuffing the result. Here also this is more of a marketing decision than an engineering decision. The simple unrelenting reality of the physics involved are that if you want to go low and go loud you have to go big. But the larger the cab the harder it is to sell to the average person, who simply isn't aware of the limitations that the physics dictate,
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post #1270 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
 

ULF Perception comes in layers. Each layer adds to a better perception of reality or "realistic recreation of the onscreen event" (realizing this is silly and why it is in quotes). I'll explain the ULF layers in an example:

 

I have 4.5 Star ULF at 10hz in my 1900cf room. I sit on concrete, with 2 FV15HPs a foot behind my couch, and dual FTW21s flanking the front screen. The room is sealed with 3 concrete surfaces. I recently watched the OHF Washington Monument scene multiple times to try and get a better understanding of the different aspects of ULF perception:

 

  1. I watch the scene at the main LP. ULF Layer 1: lots of great shaking and wobble that occurs through the ULF interacting with the couch
  2. I watch the scene standing up, separating myself from the couch. ULF Layer 2: I lose the effect of the couch shaking...which certainly takes away from the effect. However, my clothes are exhibiting that same shaking/wobbling, almost like a fan was on. Keep in mind, I'm standing on concrete and no other object is interacting with me. I feel the 'weightiness' of the room, and movement/wobble of my clothes.
  3. I watch the scene again, but with tight under-armour type clothing so that my clothes don't move. ULF Layer 3: nothing is interacting with me, but ULF sound waves. My focus shifts more to the weight of the room, perception of increased heart rate, slight perception of internal organs being batted around, perception of hair moving, pressure/'ear popping', etc.
  4. Sitting back down again, I replay the scene appreciating all 3 Layers at once.

 

The point of it all, is that the combination of all of the above, adds to the overall "realism" and what I experienced "in total" sitting in my main listening position. Take one of the layers away, and you're missing the potential of the ULF effect.

 

Layer 1 for this scene can be recreated by high ULF that interacts to objects that are in contact with you (couch, suspended floor), and potentially be recreated by properly implemented tranducers.

 

Layers 2 and 3 for this scene can only be recreated by high ULF.

 

IMO, you need them all for the full ULF experience. :) 

I quoted myself (and edited my quote for clarity) because I wanted to bring this topic back up about ULF perception.

 

I'm thinking about expanding the ULF score to two separate star ratings to get a view into how others' HT systems perceive ULF through transmission of other objects (suspended floor, seating, transducers, etc.). You would use the star rating that you currently have, and then create another Star rating to determine tactile transmission.

 

If we can say ULF does impact us in layers, Layer 1 would be the new score that we would be measured. It would be largely subjective, but those with suspended floors, or nearfield placement, or properly implemented transducers, would heighten the ULF perception for Layer 1.

 

Layers 2 & 3, IMO, can be largely attributed to the original ULF score/star rating as I believe it is a function of the pressurization your room.

 

I would want to keep them separate and not try a combined rating as I would let others subjectively decide on what's more important to them, Layer 1, or Layers 2 & 3. Let's just throw out some examples:

 

The best HT ULF experience would be one where you have a 4.5 star and above ULF rating at 5hz or 10hz, combined with a 5 Star Tactile Sensation rating. Where it becomes interesting is what if you have a 5 Star ULF rating at 20hz only, with a 5 Star TS rating? How would that compare? Or perhaps you have a 3.5 Star ULF rating with a 5 Star TS rating...or a 5 Star ULF rating with a 3 Star TS rating...how would they all compare against each other?

 

Get the picture? Again, Layers 2&3 can be contributed to the current ULF Star rating, and Layer 1 would be the new Star rating for Tactile Sensation (TS), and could even potentially bring tactile transducers into the mix?

 

As far as how to determine your TS rating, I could describe the experience of what each TS star encompasses, and then the member could simply select their category, or I could collect info about their flooring, sub placement, transducers, etc...probably more the former the more I think about it.

 

Thoughts?

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post #1271 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 02:24 PM
 
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Great! I finally have a 4.0 star system in the mail and now I have to worry about a TS rating. Great! tongue.gif

(we sit over a suspended wood floor so we have that in our favor)

I think it's up to the individual and in my opinion (speaking from ignorance), a TS rating is more subjective than objective.

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post #1272 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I quoted myself (and edited my quote for clarity) because I wanted to bring this topic back up about ULF perception.

I'm thinking about expanding the ULF score to two separate star ratings to get a view into how others' HT systems perceive ULF through transmission of other objects (suspended floor, seating, transducers, etc.). You would use the star rating that you currently have, and then create another Star rating to determine tactile transmission.

If we can say ULF does impact us in layers, Layer 1 would be the new score that we would be measured. It would be largely subjective, but those with suspended floors, or nearfield placement, or properly implemented transducers, would heighten the ULF perception for Layer 1.

Layers 2 & 3, IMO, can be largely attributed to the original ULF score/star rating as I believe it is a function of the pressurization your room.

I would want to keep them separate and not try a combined rating as I would let others subjectively decide on what's more important to them, Layer 1, or Layers 2 & 3. Let's just throw out some examples:

The best HT ULF experience would be one where you have a 4.5 star and above ULF rating at 5hz or 10hz, combined with a 5 Star Tactile Sensation rating. Where it becomes interesting is what if you have a 5 Star ULF rating at 20hz only, with a 5 Star TS rating? How would that compare? Or perhaps you have a 3.5 Star ULF rating with a 5 Star TS rating...or a 5 Star ULF rating with a 3 Star TS rating...how would they all compare against each other?

Get the picture? Again, Layers 2&3 can be contributed to the current ULF Star rating, and Layer 1 would be the new Star rating for Tactile Sensation (TS), and could even potentially bring tactile transducers into the mix?

As far as how to determine your TS rating, I could describe the experience of what each TS star encompasses, and then the member could simply select their category, or I could collect info about their flooring, sub placement, transducers, etc...probably more the former the more I think about it.

Thoughts?

I think you should specify it as a T&A rating:
T=chest impact
A=butt impact
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post #1273 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Two factors there be here. One, the larger the port area the longer the length of the duct required to tune it to the same frequency. To make the port of adequate area may make the cabinet larger than the marketing department is happy with. Two, if you use the commonly seen option of plugging a port to lower the tuning frequency for lower extension you're reducing port area, with chuffing the result. Here also this is more of a marketing decision than an engineering decision. The simple unrelenting reality of the physics involved are that if you want to go low and go loud you have to go big. But the larger the cab the harder it is to sell to the average person, who simply isn't aware of the limitations that the physics dictate,
Aside from having space for big boxes, there are some nasty problems with getting giant heavy boxes from the factory to the destination.
Perhaps a company needs to become the IKEA of subwoofers that you assemble like furniture.
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post #1274 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post

I think you should specify it as a T&A rating:
T=chest impact
A=butt impact

LOL...............Or the woman version

T = Tits
A = Ass
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post #1275 of 2223 Old 12-14-2013, 05:43 PM
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Dom,

Another great idea.

I can't tell ya how cool it is to read about a Tactile Sensation scale for ULF after years of negative comments from 20 Hz ported sub salesmen. biggrin.gif

When I built my first dual opposed sub 10 years ago, I had a Marchand Bassis with the boost spun to 24dB (256 times) eek.gif Back then I didn't have the amp horsepower needed so I had to keep the levels down to keep from clipping or shredding the drivers (which i certainly inadvertently did several times during experimentation).

The sub was dead flat to 9 Hz before room gain! I then added more 15s and amps. I had 40L of displacement and 5600W and had by then backed off the Bassis to 12dB of boost giving me a flat response to 3-4 Hz @ the LP. Then, in 2005, came WOTW. Instant addiction! Someone had mistakenly reset my trims all to '0' while I was out of town. My SW trim was calibrated at -9dB, so I was watching WOTW with the subs @ +9dB hot! I shut the system off and ran to the forum and started this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/606962/throw-away-all-your-demo-dvds-theres-a-new-king-in-town

I had been extremely lucky in that I had given zero thought to signal chain roll off, a term no one had brought up until quite some time later. But, the Bassis was flat to 2 Hz, the pre/pro I was using was -3dB @ 5 Hz and the amplifiers were as well. That gave me a signal chain that was -6dB @ 5 Hz and -10dB @ 3 Hz with a bump in my room gain at around 6.5 Hz.

The point here is that I've been fortunate to be able to experience soundtrack ULF effects for a decade. I'm so used to it that I can tell when it's present without looking at SpecLab or my drivers. In my room, as Larry experienced, the frame structure instantly alerts any and all humans when there is ULF content in a soundtrack with what seems like violent flexing, although it really isn't if the flex was actually measured. That's the strongest effect in my room. Beyond that, I think MKT said it first... it's like being under water or the sound takes on a weight like no other recorded sound. No pants flapping, no hair blowing, just dark space moving through the room.

Here's my input: I feel it's imperative that people give some idea of playback level. Some of you guys can run +10dB hot and MVL above '0' with no system failure and that's a truckload above a flat calibration. Mega systems owners comment about violent bass, but reference level is supposed to be reference level. How loud above that a sub can keep going carries a cool factor but will skew the rtesults, IMO. The TS factor should be based on the system being properly calibrated with MVL at '0' and subs calibrated flat with no in-room FR peaks higher than +5dB. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for posting awesome stuff, young man! cool.gif
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post #1276 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Bosso.

 

BTW, I think it's crazy that you started a thread back in 2005 about your discovery and proclamation that WOTW was king; nuts I tell you! To think you and the few others have been talking/experiencing this for a decade is just crazy. No wonder this talk of ULF feels like a broken record to you most of the time... :)

 

I also got a kick on how you described ULF as 'dark space' moving through the room. It's actually a pretty good figurative description...goes right along with the talk about the 'Subwoofer theory of everything" or "Unified Subwoofer theory" discussion 15 pages back or so when we were trying to solve for the ULF model in order to make it work with very small and very large rooms.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Here's my input: I feel it's imperative that people give some idea of playback level. Some of you guys can run +10dB hot and MVL above '0' with no system failure and that's a truckload above a flat calibration. Mega systems owners comment about violent bass, but reference level is supposed to be reference level. How loud above that a sub can keep going carries a cool factor but will skew the rtesults, IMO. The TS factor should be based on the system being properly calibrated with MVL at '0' and subs calibrated flat with no in-room FR peaks higher than +5dB. Just my 2 cents.
 

This is a good point...

 

To add more input to this: I think it's pretty important to have a relatively flat Tactile Sensation response as well. I've experimented this in my own setup, where I boost some 'couch shaking frequencies' more than others. What I've found is while it is very cool in a 'Loudness Button' type of way, I actually found that the lopsided shaking took away from some of the other ULF effects (Layers 2 and 3) and as a result, felt like they were missing. Having the TS more evenly distributed enhanced the overall ULF experience, and I preferred it overall.

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post #1277 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post


If you want to recreate that suspended floor type sensation you get from floor joist subwoofer shake, it actually can be done without buttkickers. I've never been a fan of buttkickers because you're paying money for something that adds no decibels to your setup. If you want shake AND decibel output, place a sub nearfield to the listening position and cross it over at 40hz to minimize localization. I've had people literally jump out of the couch the first time they heard my system because they thought someone was shaking the couch. That's on concrete with two 12" subs up front and one 18" sub nearfield behind the couch (that's the downside, works best if you have 3 subs). Prior to that setup, I too had floor joist envy, but now, when Cloverfield walks thru the room, it feels like Cloverfield walks thru the room. wink.gif

+1.

 

While I do think it's probably the majority of folks that have HT's in their basement on concrete don't get much tactile sensation (Layer 1), there are some of us that definitely do. As part of this thread, I'd like to figure out why that is for some and not others. It is nearfield placement? Is it the resonant frequency of the HT seating? Is it the design of the sub? Is it because the HT seating is close to a boundary? Don't know...

 

But, I do know that in my room, there is no mistaking the tactile sensation. It's not slight at all, but in your face. I recently had another AVS member over, and he couldn't get over the tactile feel of my HT system. He thought for sure I had transducers connected! Well, I actually do have tranducers, but not on the main LP where he was sitting. My couch is three separate pieces, with the outer pieces connected with Clark transducers. The middle section is 'all natural'. He continued to believe that the adjacent sections must have been adding some shake to the seating, so I turned them off and played more demos. Needless to say, he's now a believer. :)

 

So regarding transducers, here is my story:

 

When I originally had 1 FV15HP, I placed it right behind the listening position. Very visceral...however, the outer sections of the couch paled in comparison. They were anemic...so, I installed a pair of Clark transducers. When I was trying to get them calibrated so that they would match the tactile sensation that my middle seat provided...I actually blew both transducers up in the process! The transducers at full power could not replicate the tactile sensation I was getting from the sub! Not even close. I have the tranducers directly mounted to the frame of each of the outer section, and they could still not keep up...remember, I sit on concrete.

 

After I purchased my second FV15HP, I flanked the pair so they were directly behind the outer sections (and nothing directly behind the center section). This solved the problem. The outer seats are very close from a TS standpoint as the middle, but still the main LP is better. I actually don't need the transducers anymore, but they do add a little bit to the overall experience...enough to not uninstall them anyway.

 

From strictly a ULF standpoint, I don't believe the transducers did much at all. Perception wise, it could fool you into thinking that it had ULF because there would also be above 20hz TS present, but it could not recreate the ULF shaking that the FV provided.

 

Was it realistic? If I didn't know what ULF shaking really felt like, I'd probably say that it would add to the experience. But when comparing the two, it did feel 'fake'. Of course, I did mount them directly to the seats and not to a riser...

 

I've heard that the Crowson's go very low, but are there others that do the same? I know that some claim to (I believe the Clark's do), but didn't know if in practice they actually are capable of below 20hz shaking in a meaningful way.

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post #1278 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Thanks Bosso.

BTW, I think it's crazy that you started a thread back in 2005 about your discovery and proclamation that WOTW was king; nuts I tell you! To think you and the few others have been talking/experiencing this for a decade is just crazy. No wonder this talk of ULF feels like a broken record to you most of the time... smile.gif


Tell me about. tongue.gifsmile.gif

Although Bosso, for whatever reason, has been the focal point and the target of most of the annoying stuff. biggrin.gif

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post #1279 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

+1.

While I do think it's probably the majority of folks that have HT's in their basement on concrete don't get much tactile sensation (Layer 1), there are some of us that definitely do. As part of this thread, I'd like to figure out why that is for some and not others. It is nearfield placement? Is it the resonant frequency of the HT seating? Is it the design of the sub? Is it because the HT seating is close to a boundary? Don't know...

But, I do know that in my room, there is no mistaking the tactile sensation. It's not slight at all, but in your face. I recently had another AVS member over, and he couldn't get over the tactile feel of my HT system. He thought for sure I had transducers connected! Well, I actually do have tranducers, but not on the main LP where he was sitting. My couch is three separate pieces, with the outer pieces connected with Clark transducers. The middle section is 'all natural'. He continued to believe that the adjacent sections must have been adding some shake to the seating, so I turned them off and played more demos. Needless to say, he's now a believer. smile.gif

So regarding transducers, here is my story:

When I originally had 1 FV15HP, I placed it right behind the listening position. Very visceral...however, the outer sections of the couch paled in comparison. They were anemic...so, I installed a pair of Clark transducers. When I was trying to get them calibrated so that they would match the tactile sensation that my middle seat provided...I actually blew both transducers up in the process! The transducers at full power could not replicate the tactile sensation I was getting from the sub! Not even close. I have the tranducers directly mounted to the frame of each of the outer section, and they could still not keep up...remember, I sit on concrete.

After I purchased my second FV15HP, I flanked the pair so they were directly behind the outer sections (and nothing directly behind the center section). This solved the problem. The outer seats are very close from a TS standpoint as the middle, but still the main LP is better. I actually don't need the transducers anymore, but they do add a little bit to the overall experience...enough to not uninstall them anyway.

From strictly a ULF standpoint, I don't believe the transducers did much at all. Perception wise, it could fool you into thinking that it had ULF because there would also be above 20hz TS present, but it could not recreate the ULF shaking that the FV provided.

Was it realistic? If I didn't know what ULF shaking really felt like, I'd probably say that it would add to the experience. But when comparing the two, it did feel 'fake'. Of course, I did mount them directly to the seats and not to a riser...

I've heard that the Crownson's go very low, but are there others that do the same? I know that some claim to (I believe the Clark's do), but didn't know if in practice they actually are capable of below 20hz shaking in a meaningful way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I found crossing my nearfield above 40Hz to be annoying for movies. I imagine the same for transducers.


I think it's a combination of having nearfield subs AND having your seating close to the boundary like you mentioned above. I have tried subs nearfield in my room and I lose so much output below 25hz compared to leaving the subs up by the front wall and I don't notice more ULF tactile feel. That and I don't have the room for subs in between my 2 rows. I could however do 2 subs as end tables on each side of my front row but like I said, the output below 25hz is pretty bad with subs out in the middle of the room like that anyway so I don't think it would be worth it.

I am jealous for sure of those of you that get a lot of feel below 15hz.

I have to admit though, I haven't taken the time to try the LPF at 15hz test while sitting in my second row on the riser. I plan on trying it, but motivation is low since the only time I'm on the second row couch for movies is when the whole family is down here and I'm not cranking up 5 star bass movies at those times anyway.

John (LTD) recommended that I try these on my front row just to give it a shot since they are cheap. I received them yesterday and will soon know if they make any difference on my front row that is on concrete.

http://www.parts-express.com/buttkicker-ri-4-pak-medium-kinetic-furniture-isolators-set-of-5--300-9462
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post #1280 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

+1.

While I do think it's probably the majority of folks that have HT's in their basement on concrete don't get much tactile sensation (Layer 1), there are some of us that definitely do. As part of this thread, I'd like to figure out why that is for some and not others. It is nearfield placement? Is it the resonant frequency of the HT seating? Is it the design of the sub? Is it because the HT seating is close to a boundary? Don't know...

But, I do know that in my room, there is no mistaking the tactile sensation. It's not slight at all, but in your face. I recently had another AVS member over, and he couldn't get over the tactile feel of my HT system. He thought for sure I had transducers connected! Well, I actually do have tranducers, but not on the main LP where he was sitting. My couch is three separate pieces, with the outer pieces connected with Clark transducers. The middle section is 'all natural'. He continued to believe that the adjacent sections must have been adding some shake to the seating, so I turned them off and played more demos. Needless to say, he's now a believer. smile.gif

So regarding transducers, here is my story:

When I originally had 1 FV15HP, I placed it right behind the listening position. Very visceral...however, the outer sections of the couch paled in comparison. They were anemic...so, I installed a pair of Clark transducers. When I was trying to get them calibrated so that they would match the tactile sensation that my middle seat provided...I actually blew both transducers up in the process! The transducers at full power could not replicate the tactile sensation I was getting from the sub! Not even close. I have the tranducers directly mounted to the frame of each of the outer section, and they could still not keep up...remember, I sit on concrete.

After I purchased my second FV15HP, I flanked the pair so they were directly behind the outer sections (and nothing directly behind the center section). This solved the problem. The outer seats are very close from a TS standpoint as the middle, but still the main LP is better. I actually don't need the transducers anymore, but they do add a little bit to the overall experience...enough to not uninstall them anyway.

From strictly a ULF standpoint, I don't believe the transducers did much at all. Perception wise, it could fool you into thinking that it had ULF because there would also be above 20hz TS present, but it could not recreate the ULF shaking that the FV provided.

Was it realistic? If I didn't know what ULF shaking really felt like, I'd probably say that it would add to the experience. But when comparing the two, it did feel 'fake'. Of course, I did mount them directly to the seats and not to a riser...

I've heard that the Crowson's go very low, but are there others that do the same? I know that some claim to (I believe the Clark's do), but didn't know if in practice they actually are capable of below 20hz shaking in a meaningful way.


How does "tactile" feel like? Sorry I don't know what tactile means. But my subs is on the second floor. Suspended floor? As others call it.
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post #1281 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
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How does "tactile" feel like? Sorry I don't know what tactile means. But my subs is on the second floor. Suspended floor? As others call it.


To me there are different types since tactile means feeling the bass (well, at least to me that's what it means).


There is the punchy bass you feel in your chest. After experimenting with my minidsp a lot I have come to realize this type of bass is not around 50-80hz as much as I used to think. Yes, that is part of it but equally if not more important is the bass on up to 200hz. If I have dips/peaks and an uneven response between 80hz and 200hz the punchy/feel in the chest bass really suffers.

The other kind is that shake the hell out of the couch and me tactile bass but isn't very loud, which for me in my room is between 15hz and 25hz. That doesn't mean that above 25hz can't shake the hell out me too (Plane crash scene comes to mind in Flight of the Phoenix and it's centered in the low 30's from what I've read) but that higher bass is much more audible at the same time.

Then there is the feel of the ULF frequencies below 15hz. I have yet to experience this. In my room that really low stuff makes it sound like my house is coming apart but I get no couch shake and body feel.


For music my favorite bass is the punchy chest feel stuff, for movies it's the 15-25hz stuff that isn't loud but shakes me and the couch a lot.

In your room with your subs you will get all of the above and then some!!!! smile.gif
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post #1282 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post





How does "tactile" feel like? Sorry I don't know what tactile means. But my subs is on the second floor. Suspended floor? As others call it.

Lots of shaking...seating, clothes, body...

 

I tried to measure it with a Vibration Meter Android App. I maxed at 7.0: "Very Strong, Difficult to stand" during the clip Black Hawk Down:

 

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post #1283 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 08:24 PM
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Thanks guys for the in depth of "tactile". I have a lot of slams, punch, shakes, and rattles. But the thing I don't like is the rattles. I hear some annoying rattles in my recess lights in my HT room. I don't know around at what region in hz it does that. Like for instance, WOTW pod emerge scene I get the rattles. Got it with OHF too! It can be very annoying. Think I gotta call my electrician to check it out.
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post #1284 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 09:42 PM
 
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Quote:
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How does "tactile" feel like? Sorry I don't know what tactile means. But my subs is on the second floor. Suspended floor? As others call it.

Think earthquake or a truck rumbling by.
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post #1285 of 2223 Old 12-15-2013, 10:25 PM
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These bass transducers seem to be the least understood and least commonly "correctly" installed piece of equipment, IMO.

Take the Aura's for example, their resonant frequency is 40 Hz. If someone tries to use them anywhere around this frequency, they better have a crossover setup perfectly otherwise they are going to get a lot more force transmission in the 40-50 Hz range than any others. If they set up the low pass xover for 80 Hz, for example, the shakers are going to be a one-note wonder at 40 Hz. I guess you could try an 80 Hz LPF and a 60 Hz HPF and that might work for music. Nobody seems to notice the force response curve??? The amplifier is kinda supposed to deliver a constant voltage with frequency so there is going to be a huge mismatch in the apparent frequency response.

For movies I would be perhaps set a steep 25-30 Hz low pass filter to get my ULF. Problem is that the force response is low below FS so you would need to implement more shakers to get a good tactile response. At least you'd be in somewhat a linear response range...



I read that the Buttkicker LFE's have an FS of only 9 Hz. To me, that means you'd likely want to use a HPF somewhat above that range. Otherwise you could suffer bottoming, which I suspect is the major complaint with these.

The Crowson's seem like they might be a different sort, where they are much higher force and they are not just throwing a mass around inside an elecromagnet. I don't know. People seem to like those.

All this from me who has never actually used any of these systems. I am just interested in implementing one and these are my observations...redface.gif

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post #1286 of 2223 Old 12-16-2013, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Lots of shaking...seating, clothes, body...

I tried to measure it with a Vibration Meter Android App. I maxed at 7.0: "Very Strong, Difficult to stand" during the clip Black Hawk Down:



Yesterday, I watched the series "Pacific" in all its glory..................................WOTW while impressive............... was no match in realism department! There were scene from Pacific that scared the crap out of me! The shaking and realism was unnerving............................16 inchers landing on the beach made me respect those poor fellows landing. ULF brings so much to the table.......................I'm looking forward to finishing the last 4 subs and will use whatever it takes to go lower!!! biggrin.gif
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post #1287 of 2223 Old 12-16-2013, 06:49 PM
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^^ That is cool. Wonder if there is an equivalent Apple app? Thanks.
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post #1288 of 2223 Old 12-17-2013, 11:28 AM
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Yesterday, I watched the series "Pacific" in all its glory..................................WOTW while impressive............... was no match in realism department! There were scene from Pacific that scared the crap out of me! The shaking and realism was unnerving............................16 inchers landing on the beach made me respect those poor fellows landing. ULF brings so much to the table.......................I'm looking forward to finishing the last 4 subs and will use whatever it takes to go lower!!! biggrin.gif


I raved about "The Pacific" a year or so ago, ... I'm not sure I've seen others discuss it, it's an absolutely tremendously powerful experience. No, that's not hyperbole/exaggeration, it's that good in my opinion.

It's extraordinary filmmaking, one can become fully immersed, stunningly powerful at times, and tearfully emotional at others.

My strongest recommendation.

this is a release that a big and highly capable system is made for
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post #1289 of 2223 Old 12-17-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I raved about "The Pacific" a year or so ago, ... I'm not sure I've seen others discuss it, it's an absolutely tremendously powerful experience. No, that's not hyperbole/exaggeration, it's that good in my opinion.

It's extraordinary filmmaking, one can become fully immersed, stunningly powerful at times, and tearfully emotional at others.

My strongest recommendation.

this is a release that a big and highly capable system is made for

I couldn't agree more! My theater room has been in operation for 6 months now and has seen almost all highly rated source material for ULF..............without question, Pacific series has been the most gratifying! A must see.............feel!eek.gif
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post #1290 of 2223 Old 12-17-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

I couldn't agree more! My theater room has been in operation for 6 months now and has seen almost all highly rated source material for ULF..............without question, Pacific series has been the most gratifying! A must see.............feel!eek.gif


BR or DVD version?
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