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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Your Home Theater ULF Score
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 04:41 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Congrats Dave! 

The pressurization in your room has to be unprecedented. Combine that with some dialed in transducers has got to be one heck of a ride that I'd like to experience!

Have you ever thought about building a suspended floor over concrete in your room? I would imagine that a suspended floor over concrete would take it to a whole new level...you might even be able to get away with it with a riser under your seating.

Definitely the right move over the rotary...I think your HT now is capable of rotary levels for all intensive purposes.
Thanks, and you are right, the amount of pressurization I get in my room is incredible. I have thought about a suspended floor, but that will make the room height less ideal that it already is.

gpmbc's Avatar gpmbc 12:58 PM 01-03-2014
Dave, what amp did you use for your Crowsons?
carp's Avatar carp 01:07 PM 01-03-2014
I just bought a Crowson yesterday to try it out. Randall is a really nice guy, we talked for quite awhile about setup etc. and he shipped same day! Looks like it will get here Wednesday, how's that for service! Oh, and 10 percent off for AVS guys. smile.gif

He prefers running the Crowson up to 80hz, he says it makes all the higher bass - gun shots and what not - have a more realistic feel. He did say however that guys with a ton of bass from subs may not need that higher LPF on the Crowson.

I'm just trying out one for now to see what I think and get more if I like it.
Fatshaft's Avatar Fatshaft 01:47 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I just bought a Crowson yesterday to try it out. Randall is a really nice guy, we talked for quite awhile about setup etc. and he shipped same day! Looks like it will get here Wednesday, how's that for service! Oh, and 10 percent off for AVS guys. smile.gif

He prefers running the Crowson up to 80hz, he says it makes all the higher bass - gun shots and what not - have a more realistic feel. He did say however that guys with a ton of bass from subs may not need that higher LPF on the Crowson.

I'm just trying out one for now to see what I think and get more if I like it.

Carp,

I'm really looking forward to your impressions
I myself am super interested in these (after reading what JapanDave wrote)
I have 2 rows of seats...first on cement foundation and second row on the riser that's completely filled with sand.
I play an 8HZ tone and my house shakes stupidly violently...(you should see my table on the 2nd floor) and yet I hardly feel anything in my seats!)

Please post your impressions too once installed...I really need to do something.


Thanks in advance
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 03:17 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Dave, what amp did you use for your Crowsons?
I got the Crowson D-500 Tactile Motion Amplifier's for mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I just bought a Crowson yesterday to try it out. Randall is a really nice guy, we talked for quite awhile about setup etc. and he shipped same day! Looks like it will get here Wednesday, how's that for service! Oh, and 10 percent off for AVS guys. smile.gif
No 10% discount for me???
gpmbc's Avatar gpmbc 03:22 PM 01-03-2014
Thx, and you have to call and mention the deal to get the 10%.
gpmbc's Avatar gpmbc 03:23 PM 01-03-2014
Carp, I'll be interested in your feedback as well.
carp's Avatar carp 03:45 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I got the Crowson D-500 Tactile Motion Amplifier's for mine.
No 10% discount for me???

Yeah I asked him about the avs 10% discount on the phone.
carp's Avatar carp 03:49 PM 01-03-2014
I will definitely let you guys know what I think. Keep in mind I'm only buying one for my love seat and Dave bought 4. Also, I'm going to use the inuke 3000 that I borrowed from Archaea to power it. Randall said that was fine but be really conservative with the volume and slowly build up since the inuke has so much more power than is needed.


Dave, are you using the same delay as your subs or do you have another device (minidsp?) to tweak the distance of the Crowsons in relation to the subs?
Scott Simonian's Avatar Scott Simonian 04:13 PM 01-03-2014
Hey Dom,

You can update my spot on the list again. My new multi sealed subwoofer system has been installed and I'm pretty sure I'm keeping this and not putting the Ol' LLT's back. wink.gif

Currently using eight SI 18HTd4's and four Sound Splinter RLp18d4's (with two more coming soon) all in dual opposed sealed enclosures up front.

Also, not sure if you want to bother adding them but I also am summing LFE to my JBL's so there are those too. tongue.gif
Scott Simonian's Avatar Scott Simonian 04:14 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I will definitely let you guys know what I think. Keep in mind I'm only buying one for my love seat and Dave bought 4. Also, I'm going to use the inuke 3000 that I borrowed from Archaea to power it. Randall said that was fine but be really conservative with the volume and slowly build up since the inuke has so much more power than is needed.


Dave, are you using the same delay as your subs or do you have another device (minidsp?) to tweak the distance of the Crowsons in relation to the subs?

Sweet! I definitely want to know what you think of them Crowson's too! smile.gif
carp's Avatar carp 04:24 PM 01-03-2014
If I were you guys I would take what Dave says over me but I know what you mean, more opinions is a good thing. Dave said on the Crowson thread that using them makes LFE at -30 feel like -15 and he could not tell the difference! That's all I needed to know.

Randall told me that I could possibly be fine with just one transducer with my love seat, but it would all depend on placement and construction of the love seat if it would be localized since there is one of them not 2. If I like it I'll eventually buy 2 for the back row couch and 1 more for the front if it's needed.

Next I'll put one under the bar stool legs and bar table. tongue.gif j/k
Toe's Avatar Toe 04:24 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Thanks, and you are right, the amount of pressurization I get in my room is incredible. I have thought about a suspended floor, but that will make the room height less ideal that it already is.

Great to hear that even with a sub setup of your magnitude, you are still getting benefit out of the shakers which doesn't surprise me TBH going off my own experience with my BKs/mini riser setup. cool.gif I could not live without my transducers at this point for movies as they add an element that my subs cant on my concrete slab.
desertdome's Avatar desertdome 04:53 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

If I were you guys I would take what Dave says over me but I know what you mean, more opinions is a good thing. Dave said on the Crowson thread that using them makes LFE at -30 feel like -15 and he could not tell the difference! That's all I needed to know.

Randall told me that I could possibly be fine with just one transducer with my love seat, but it would all depend on placement and construction of the love seat if it would be localized since there is one of them not 2. If I like it I'll eventually buy 2 for the back row couch and 1 more for the front if it's needed.

Next I'll put one under the bar stool legs and bar table. tongue.gif j/k
Attach it to your bed for a little testing, but don't tell your wife. biggrin.gif
carp's Avatar carp 05:00 PM 01-03-2014
Haha, I have a lot of possible replies... none of them appropriate. biggrin.gif
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 06:41 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Dave, are you using the same delay as your subs or do you have another device (minidsp?) to tweak the distance of the Crowsons in relation to the subs?
I am using my receiver the RS20i. I can set all HP and LP filters, delays, Room EQ filters and volume adjustment for each individual channel. I have 16 channels to play with, so plenty of room for more speakers.

As for your question, I am using different delays for the transducers than my subs. Also, I do have each individual driver (subwoofer) setup with its own delay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Great to hear that even with a sub setup of your magnitude, you are still getting benefit out of the shakers which doesn't surprise me TBH going off my own experience with my BKs/mini riser setup. cool.gif I could not live without my transducers at this point for movies as they add an element that my subs cant on my concrete slab.
Thanks. I did try butt-kickers, but they just did not do anything for me, so I had given up on traducers. Lucky someone recommend them for me.
Toe's Avatar Toe 06:51 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I am using my receiver the RS20i. I can set all HP and LP filters, delays, Room EQ filters and volume adjustment for each individual channel. I have 16 channels to play with, so plenty of room for more speakers.

As for your question, I am using different delays for the transdcers than my subs. Also, I do have each individual driver (subwoofer) setup with its own delay.
Thanks. I did try butt-kickers, but they just did not do anything for me, so I had given up on traducers. Lucky someone recommend them for me.


Yeah, the BKs can be extremely good or not so good depending on how they are setup. Of course the same could be said for most transducers. How were the BKs setup/mounted exactly that you tried? I love my BKs with how I have them mounted to my platform which I could not accomplish with the Crowsons by the looks of how they work (which obviously is great for some people like you depending on the setup).
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 08:31 AM 01-04-2014

Great discussion with the Tranducers guys as it pertains to ULF Perception. Bottom line is that for those that have their HTs in concrete bunkers in the basement, ULF tactile feeling is difficult to achieve without the right Tactile Feedback (indirect) components in the room. In thinking about the Tactile Feedback Score more, I've revised the scoring:

 

 

Just to give this more color:

 

The thought based on my experience and others is that the Suspended Floor is king regarding Tactile Feedback. If your HT is in the basement, there are ways that you can simulate (similar but not the same) a Suspended Floor. We basement HT owners are unlikely to build a suspended floor over concrete after the fact, so pick some components to get near, at, or above the 10 points.

 

Also remember that your total ULF Experience is both the Tactile Feedback Score and your ULF score; meaning those that have high ULF scores that extend the lowest, combined with a high Tactile Feedback score, should have the best ULF Experience.

 

Note: I separated the Tranducers into two classes as I believe the quality of tactile feedback and extension is much better with the more expensive ones.

 

Again, these are generalizations and will likely vary per HT from a ULF experience standpoint. However, the hope is that it will get us close to understanding each other's ULF perception.

 

Let me know what you think.


dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 08:33 AM 01-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hey Dom,

You can update my spot on the list again. My new multi sealed subwoofer system has been installed and I'm pretty sure I'm keeping this and not putting the Ol' LLT's back. wink.gif

Currently using eight SI 18HTd4's and four Sound Splinter RLp18d4's (with two more coming soon) all in dual opposed sealed enclosures up front.

Also, not sure if you want to bother adding them but I also am summing LFE to my JBL's so there are those too. tongue.gif

Will do Scott, I'll get it on the next update. 

 

Congrats, BTW! That has got to be awesome!

 

Regarding your JBLs, can you run a sim of their ULF capability compared to the SI? 3 JBLs, correct? I'll add this to your score.


dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 09:25 AM 01-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


The new drivers have the most x-max, highest displacement and although I am running them 5 dBs hot they seem to be much stronger or louder than the others at 10 dBs hot with things like power cords getting knocked out of the wall outlets in the next room. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


Thanks mk. This ^^^ is exactly what I was referring to. Spl reads the same, but it feels a lot stronger.

So now that this Acoustical Energy theory is out there regarding Tactile Feedback, perhaps it explains the above and potentially why others have said high xmax drivers 'feel/sound' more visceral and deeper. MK, with his many setups, has said his latest most xmax drivers have the best ULF as compared to his other setups.

 

I'm going to throw out an analogy to help think through this more that I'm sure will get shot down...but what the heck. :cool:

 

Assume you have two sealed 14x18 rooms.

  • Room A has 20 18in diameter holes in the wall
  • Room B has 5 18in diameter holes in the wall

 

Water pours through the holes in both rooms so that after some time, both rooms are entirely filled with water at the same time.

 

If you stand in the middle of the room during this process, Room B will have much stronger "water jets" through the 5 holes, compared to the 20 holes in Room B. In fact, Room Bs water jet may knock you down because of how strong they are.

 

  • The water in this example is sound.
  • The volume of water is SPL. During the test, the rooms will be filled with the same sound at the same rates (amplitude is the same). 
  • The holes are 18in drivers, with the rate being analogous to the Xmax. In this example, 5 18in drivers' xmax of Room B is equivalent to the 20 drivers in Room A.
  • The water force coming out of the holes, is the acoustic energy. There is more force (acoustic energy) coming from the 5 holes (18in drivers) in Room B, as compared to the 20 holes (18in drivers) in Room A, but in both situations, the volume of water at any given time is the same (same SPL).

 

Does this analogy hold any water (pun intended) :)?  Could there be more acoustic energy in high xmax drivers as compared to lower xmax drivers in multiples? Remember, SPL is not necessarily equivalent to acoustic energy.

 

EDIT: In reality, the room would be filled in milliseconds if it were sound, and the 20 subs in Room A would sum to the same SPL as the 4 subs in Room B. The point of the analogy (and my theory) is to illustrate that the 4 subs in Room B need more acoustic energy (accomplished by a larger xmax) to reach the same SPL as the 20 drivers in Room A. Because the acoustic energy is more concentrated in Room B, it pervades the room more and has more impact, and perhaps why high xmax drivers 'feel' stronger.


MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 09:56 AM 01-04-2014
Hey Dom,
I just tried a little boost(3dbs) with the bassis and it made the bass seem I turned it up 10 dBs! It was so strong I thought for sure I would break something. I never felt anything like it! BTW, I am using a Sony AVR that cost $229 and here is the bass response at my LP with it.

This shows bassis and bypassed.



Here is a full range center channel without the bassis



The difference is huge subjectively between the two upper graphs and I am not sure why.
BeeMan458's Avatar BeeMan458 10:27 AM 01-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Does this analogy hold any water (pun intended) smile.gif ?

I've been raving on this point for a long time when I post about the laws of fluid dynamics.

One can use water to cut steel.
Scott Simonian's Avatar Scott Simonian 10:58 AM 01-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Will do Scott, I'll get it on the next update. 

Congrats, BTW! That has got to be awesome!

Regarding your JBLs, can you run a sim of their ULF capability compared to the SI? 3 JBLs, correct? I'll add this to your score.

Umm. I'm not sure what kind of model. I guess I can throw one up of what they are in now. Not a ton of ULF capability if you look at a single model but in room and with an array of twelve of them, there is some form of mutual coupling and inherent low end boost of that array. Right now I have the bottom six JBL's getting LFE. Member MaxMercy quoted to me directly that he believes that each quad array of JBL's is equivalent to a pair of Dayton 15" HF subs. Not sure if that helps. Let me know how you'd like me to figure the JBL's into your ULF calculator.

And thanks a ton, man! It does sound awesome. Totally and completely effortless, limitless sound from either the mains and/or the sub system. It's ridiculous and awesome. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Umm. I'm not sure what kind of model. I guess I can throw one up of what they are in now. Not a ton of ULF capability if you look at a single model but in room and with an array of twelve of them, there is some form of mutual coupling and inherent low end boost of that array. Right now I have the bottom six JBL's getting LFE. Member MaxMercy quoted to me directly that he believes that each quad array of JBL's is equivalent to a pair of Dayton 15" HF subs. Not sure if that helps. Let me know how you'd like me to figure the JBL's into your ULF calculator.

And thanks a ton, man! It does sound awesome. Totally and completely effortless, limitless sound from either the mains and/or the sub system. It's ridiculous and awesome. biggrin.gif


EDIT: Not sure if I did it right. I compared the what would be six JBL's in the box I built at full power (600w) each compared to a single d4 SI 18HT in 4cuft at 600w.


Luke Kamp's Avatar Luke Kamp 02:15 PM 01-04-2014
Love where you have been looking into here Dom. I found a bit of the same with port tune here. I don't know how to explain it but I think you may be onto something.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489801/bought-four-sealed-18-cabinets-on-a-wild-hare-direct-me-to-a-driver-setup-at-least-competitive-or-superior-to-jtr-captivators/150#post_23911926

Now about the resonant frequency of furniture, this is something I have contemplated since you started a thread measuring feel. I think this should be something those selling theater chairs seats should be looking into. They could measure and list what frequency excites each model and by how much doing simple tests such as you. I think someone lets say with a 20hz tuned bass reflex system would want a seat that shakes at 20hz over a seat at 15hz. Just something I was thinking of that I thought was worth discussing.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 07:39 AM 01-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Hey Dom,
I just tried a little boost(3dbs) with the bassis and it made the bass seem I turned it up 10 dBs! It was so strong I thought for sure I would break something. I never felt anything like it! BTW, I am using a Sony AVR that cost $229 and here is the bass response at my LP with it.

This shows bassis and bypassed.



Here is a full range center channel without the bassis



The difference is huge subjectively between the two upper graphs and I am not sure why.

Awesome MK...may need to try that Sony!!!

 

IMO, I think it's related to your high xmax drivers and associated acoustic energy. Not sure my theory above makes any sense, but the shoe seems to fit...


dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 07:42 AM 01-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Umm. I'm not sure what kind of model. I guess I can throw one up of what they are in now. Not a ton of ULF capability if you look at a single model but in room and with an array of twelve of them, there is some form of mutual coupling and inherent low end boost of that array. Right now I have the bottom six JBL's getting LFE. Member MaxMercy quoted to me directly that he believes that each quad array of JBL's is equivalent to a pair of Dayton 15" HF subs. Not sure if that helps. Let me know how you'd like me to figure the JBL's into your ULF calculator.

And thanks a ton, man! It does sound awesome. Totally and completely effortless, limitless sound from either the mains and/or the sub system. It's ridiculous and awesome. biggrin.gif
EDIT: Not sure if I did it right. I compared the what would be six JBL's in the box I built at full power (600w) each compared to a single d4 SI 18HT in 4cuft at 600w.

That's the info I was looking for! I'll add it in. 


steve nn's Avatar steve nn 07:51 AM 01-05-2014
Quote:
Scott And thanks a ton, man! It does sound awesome. Totally and completely effortless, limitless sound from either the mains and/or the sub system. It's ridiculous and awesome. biggrin.gif

I don’t get it Scott, how can that be?? confused.giftongue.gifbiggrin.gif
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 08:05 AM 01-05-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Love where you have been looking into here Dom. I found a bit of the same with port tune here. I don't know how to explain it but I think you may be onto something.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489801/bought-four-sealed-18-cabinets-on-a-wild-hare-direct-me-to-a-driver-setup-at-least-competitive-or-superior-to-jtr-captivators/150#post_23911926

Now about the resonant frequency of furniture, this is something I have contemplated since you started a thread measuring feel. I think this should be something those selling theater chairs seats should be looking into. They could measure and list what frequency excites each model and by how much doing simple tests such as you. I think someone lets say with a 20hz tuned bass reflex system would want a seat that shakes at 20hz over a seat at 15hz. Just something I was thinking of that I thought was worth discussing.

Thanks for the sounding board Luke! There's been a lot of echo around some of my ideas, so not sure if folks aren't understanding, agree, disagree, or just think I'm looney. It's great to hear you experienced something similar. The original thought that ported shakes more than sealed was hard to stomach as it just wasn't making sense. Add in acoustic energy, and more tactile feedback around the ported tune (as opposed to all frequencies), and it's much more palatable, IMO.

 

Like I said before, this acoustic energy stuff seems to be an unexplored dimension as it relates to tactile feeling. I'll keep exploring and throwing ideas out there until some one gives me a better navigation device for guidance. :) 

 

I 100% agree with you on identifying/building resonant frequencies into furniture. That, and Bosso's idea about how to build and 'tune' a suspended floor to a certain frequency are some very innovative ideas. I do like transducers, but IMO, nothing is more natural than sound/acoustic energy energizing the furniture or floor. When I give demos, and unveil the curtains, transducers sort of feel like your 'cheating' in a way; its much more impressive to me when they ask "do you have to have shakers (augmentation) in this couch", and I can answer with "no...au natural here" :cool:. BUT, I probably only feel that way because I have the luxury of both. If my couch didn't shake the way it does, I'd definitely go the transducer route for my main LP.


desertdome's Avatar desertdome 10:18 AM 01-06-2014
I've had dual ported, dual dual-opposed sealed, and now dual IB manifolds in my room. With the ported subs, the Auralex Subdudes made a big difference in the tactile feel. They eliminated some of the excessive shake I had which allowed the audible bass to be played at higher volumes. With the sealed subs, the Subdudes didn't change anything. This also points to ported providing more energy transfer and tactile feel in some way.
JapanDave's Avatar JapanDave 04:57 PM 01-06-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Great discussion with the Tranducers guys as it pertains to ULF Perception. Bottom line is that for those that have their HTs in concrete bunkers in the basement, ULF tactile feeling is difficult to achieve without the right Tactile Feedback (indirect) components in the room. In thinking about the Tactile Feedback Score more, I've revised the scoring:




Just to give this more color:

The thought based on my experience and others is that the Suspended Floor is king regarding Tactile Feedback. If your HT is in the basement, there are ways that you can simulate (similar but not the same) a Suspended Floor. We basement HT owners are unlikely to build a suspended floor over concrete after the fact, so pick some components to get near, at, or above the 10 points.

Also remember that your total ULF Experience is both the Tactile Feedback Score and your ULF score; meaning those that have high ULF scores that extend the lowest, combined with a high Tactile Feedback score, should have the best ULF Experience.

Note: I separated the Tranducers into two classes as I believe the quality of tactile feedback and extension is much better with the more expensive ones.

Again, these are generalizations and will likely vary per HT from a ULF experience standpoint. However, the hope is that it will get us close to understanding each other's ULF perception.

Let me know what you think.

I like this. How are you intending on implementing it?
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