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post #1621 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Ok, finally got to taking some spectrographs of f'in irene on sealed vs ported. Keep in mind, they're in separate corners of the room and the sealed boxes aren't LT'd flat at the moment. They are however, level matched and MultEQ XT 32 has been run. Here we go.

Sealed:
Wx1w5bm.jpg

Ported:
oolnf6A.jpg

Both:
1BZ4HkC.jpg

Both with higher level
828ntBb.jpg




I don't see the high level 6 Hz content that everyone makes a big deal about on those waterfalls.
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post #1622 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 06:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It is noticeable except it depends on room. Notnyt's room is massive so he is doing what is needed for him. He runs hot LFE so the extra headroom in the teens is most welcomed.

I'm betting that much of what isn't being heard is because, by comparison to FOTP and "Unstoppable," the BHD action sound track is volume filtered to 85dB/95dB. For measuring purposes, in my opinion, based on personal measurements, BHD was the purest example of reference level play (intentionally limited to 85dB at +/-0dB MVC) that I've every had the pleasure of holding a sound meter for.

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post #1623 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 06:47 AM
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Not is showing his in room response which lacks the 6 hz, why? He does not have a mic that is flat to 6 hz so it will be lower and he did not have any LT boost down low that sealed systems needs. The ported sub will have some content but always very low due to the steeper roll off of the design. I will show an in room response once I am back in town but the biggest problem will be the mic rolloff at 5 hz which is around 16 dBs. Without adding the corrective files I would never show my rooms true extension.

As for feel of the low stuff, it adds weight and pressure. If you look at TDKR scenes from above one shows high level 20-30hz and another clip shows high level 20-30hz plus high level 1-3hz stuff. All I know is the scene with it feels beefier and heavier.
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post #1624 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 06:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

As for feel of the low stuff, it adds weight and pressure. If you look at TDKR scenes from above one shows high level 20-30hz and another clip shows high level 20-30hz plus high level 1-3hz stuff. All I know is the scene with it feels beefier and heavier.

Not arguing.

How can one explain the lack of bass content in BHD? Using identical settings, if one plays BHD and immediately throws FOTP or "Unstoppable" into the tray, hit play, the bass is full and ever present where in the case of BHD, is was more complimentary than present?

I understand the need for calibrated measuring microphone and very capable playback gear to measure and playback 5Hz/6Hz content but what about the >10Hz content> In my opinion, there was little bass content in the whole of the soundtrack. And with the sound meter running both during BHD, FOTP and "Unstoppable," BHD was clearly the bass loser with it's less than impressive bass track. And that's not a knock on the movie as it was a very well done movie that sucks you in and keeps you there.

...confused.gif

"Battle: L.A. had a better bass soundtrack. (Unlike some others, I like the story and directing of "Battle: L.A. For a SciFi, well done.)


Regarding BHD's bass soundtrack, what am I missing?

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post #1625 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Not is showing his in room response which lacks the 6 hz, why? He does not have a mic that is flat to 6 hz so it will be lower and he did not have any LT boost down low that sealed systems needs. The ported sub will have some content but always very low due to the steeper roll off of the design. I will show an in room response once I am back in town but the biggest problem will be the mic rolloff at 5 hz which is around 16 dBs. Without adding the corrective files I would never show my rooms true extension.


I realize all of that. However, in effect all Notny shows is a comparison of how each subwoofer (sealed and ported) plays 18 Hz and above. My system will probably look the very similar to those waterfalls in that part of the spectrum!


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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

He needs to run an in room spec lab graph of the scene that he uses for this difference. Then we could see the differences in content and where.


Do you see any difference between sealed and ported waterfalls?
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post #1626 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 07:33 AM
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Yes I know. The digital graph has lower extension and less bass overall. The point of in room spec lab is to see how your system compares to the source. Although I love the sound of my system I am curious. I will also engage a 20hz high pass to feel the difference. It should be done blind too. These are great ways to show what we are listening too compared to what is on the disc. The ported subs show more distortion however still very low and not even close to audible. If no played the pulse scene the ported May have less distortion. I want to know how Not's sub would compare to a GH. These have to be the best two examples of their design.
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post #1627 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 07:35 AM
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I don't see much of a difference and certainly not audible however Not says they sound different. A different graph perhaps? He also has more headroom with his ported than sealed which is important in his room, my room not so much.
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post #1628 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I don't see much of a difference and certainly not audible however Not says they sound different.

Well perhaps the graphs show the same SPL level, but as @dominguez1 is trying to point out, SPL measurements alone fail to take everything into account. Around tuning, Notnyt's huge ported sub is probably creating lots of PVL (aka wind) that could be responsible for the added sensations.

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post #1629 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 08:22 AM
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I agree but the spec lab will show decay, THD, SPL, and extension. Decay could show up as not a flat response. Bosso would be better to answer as he has experience with these type of comparisons.
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post #1630 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Do you see any difference between sealed and ported waterfalls?

I do. The ported shows much greater output at about 36Hz. Without seeing the digital capture, it's hard to know whether that's content that's being missed by the sealed subs or content that's being added by the ported subs. My assumption is that it's harmonic distortion being added by the ported subs. Not what's the tuning frequency of your porteds?

What I don't know is how audible something like that will be and whether it is contributing to the difference he hears.

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #1631 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 08:50 AM
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Louder audible bass would most definitely seem better! I am looking on my phone so take that for what I is worth.
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post #1632 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Also something to note, having the crowson transducers running is a world better for me than having my subs running in such a way they could produce the 6hz fundamental. So awesome.

Nice.

Lol I keep seeing posts like this and I come out thinking, "Damn I want a Crowson!".

Flash forward to the next time I sit down with the new system and playback near reference.....

"Okkkaaaayyyy. Don't think I need the Crowson."

*On concrete, no riser*

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post #1633 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Do you see any difference between sealed and ported waterfalls?

I do. The ported shows much greater output at about 36Hz. Without seeing the digital capture, it's hard to know whether that's content that's being missed by the sealed subs or content that's being added by the ported subs. My assumption is that it's harmonic distortion being added by the ported subs. Not what's the tuning frequency of your porteds?

What I don't know is how audible something like that will be and whether it is contributing to the difference he hears.



I noticed that same thing, but as Noynyt noted the subwoofers are in different corners of the room.
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post #1634 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Also something to note, having the crowson transducers running is a world better for me than having my subs running in such a way they could produce the 6hz fundamental. So awesome.

Nice.

Lol I keep seeing posts like this and I come out thinking, "Damn I want a Crowson!".

Flash forward to the next time I sit down with the new system and playback near reference.....

"Okkkaaaayyyy. Don't think I need the Crowson."

*On concrete, no riser*

eek.gif


But then.... new toys! biggrin.gif




When are you going to update your thread?
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post #1635 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:01 AM
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Looking at Bosso's graphs and Not's it looks like the ported has more 4 hd and 6 hd?
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post #1636 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Lol I keep seeing posts like this and I come out thinking, "Damn I want a Crowson!".

Flash forward to the next time I sit down with the new system and playback near reference.....

"Okkkaaaayyyy. Don't think I need the Crowson."

In my opinion, the "Irene" scene is a one off phenomenon. I can take identical settings, pop in FOTP or "Unstoppable" and the whole room rumbles and rocks; floors, chairs, people, everything.

Personally, I believe that BHD is filtered for max volume as the Irene scene, we get a max blip of 99.8dB where as in the case of the FOTP and "Unstoppable," we measure, 112dB to 114dB. Again, all settings are the same. The blu-ray tray is opened, the old disk removed and new disk put in. No other changes.
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post #1637 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:10 AM
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No s**t 30hz at 112-114dB sounds more impressive than 6hz at 99dB.

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post #1638 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:12 AM
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When are you going to update your thread?


Awwww!

You were paying attention. biggrin.gif

I still have some things to do and I have been either too busy in general or too busy enjoying how it sounds now. smile.gif I will update it soon enough though. wink.gif

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post #1639 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

No s**t 30hz at 112-114dB sounds more impressive than 6hz at 99dB.

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post #1640 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:15 AM
 
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...tongue.gif
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post #1641 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I realize all of that. However, in effect all Notny shows is a comparison of how each subwoofer (sealed and ported) plays 18 Hz and above. My system will probably look the very similar to those waterfalls in that part of the spectrum!

Prove it.

Quote:
Do you see any difference between sealed and ported waterfalls?

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I agree but the spec lab will show decay, THD, SPL, and extension. Decay could show up as not a flat response. Bosso would be better to answer as he has experience with these type of comparisons.

It will also show all frequency response non-linearity. When, for example, there is a G2G comparo of different subs, what a given sub may 'hit' in dBSPL will have everything to do with that subs FR at the mic as it corresponds to what the content of the scene is. If, for example, there's a sound effect centered at 40 Hz and one sub has a FR peak @ 40 Hz, it may 'hit' a higher # vs other subs and the SL will show why.

Rob has a superb system, but he has chosen to roll off above the Irene scenes bottom fundamental. Thanks to Rob for posting the data. I've been wondering why no one has done this over the years I've been asking for it. It completely eliminates the controversy surrounding the "my system handles that scene with no problem" comments.

Ask Max and/or Nube how to input a correction file for SL if interested in this exercise. My measurement system requires no calibration file to 4 Hz, so I leave it at that when mic'ing scenes through SL.



The top graph is a digital measurement off of an AVRs SW output.

Since there's no 6 Hz fundamental from either system, there's of course no 2HD at 12 Hz, but the 2HD of the 18 Hz fundamental shows higher THD from the ported system. In this case, it's no doubt masked completely, but I seriously doubt JPC's system (and many other member's as well) would show this kind of performance at reference level, and especially at the +10dBRL level. wink.gif

As far as the experience of Irene as a listener, I've commented often over the years that this scene is not a good one to eval ULF because of the steady state nature of the fundamentals, the number of simultaneous fundamentals and the fact that the spread of fundamentals are odd-order from 6 Hz to 122 Hz (roughly). It's higher value is in seeing the extension and even order HD of your system at the seats when the system is pushed to whatever your listening level is. Most members comment that they never listen at RL. Most prefer -10dBRL to -15dBRL. But, if you run your subs hot then, for the purposes of this exercise (a SL graph to 120 Hz), you are listening at RL when your MVL is at -10dB.
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post #1642 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Not is showing his in room response which lacks the 6 hz, why? He does not have a mic that is flat to 6 hz so it will be lower and he did not have any LT boost down low that sealed systems needs. The ported sub will have some content but always very low due to the steeper roll off of the design. I will show an in room response once I am back in town but the biggest problem will be the mic rolloff at 5 hz which is around 16 dBs. Without adding the corrective files I would never show my rooms true extension.

As for feel of the low stuff, it adds weight and pressure. If you look at TDKR scenes from above one shows high level 20-30hz and another clip shows high level 20-30hz plus high level 1-3hz stuff. All I know is the scene with it feels beefier and heavier.

Please don't speculate on my gear. My mic is indeed flat to 6hz. I have like 6 of them, so I used the one appropriate here.

There is a 14hz 4th order filter applied to the output there. Maybe I'll grab another capture later without the filter.
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post #1643 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Please don't speculate on my gear. My mic is indeed flat to 6hz.

There is a 14hz 4th order filter applied to the output there. Maybe I'll grab another capture later without the filter.

Was the filter in place for the sealed measurement that you did?

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post #1644 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Was the filter in place for the sealed measurement that you did?

Yep. I'll see if I can find my old settings for the minidsp and run that scene again without multeq on. It was previously -3db at 7hz due to an 11hz hp, I'll run it unfiltered.
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post #1645 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:35 AM
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Oh! Okay, yeah, that kinda skews things a bit. tongue.gif

Look forward to your corrected measurement. smile.gif

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post #1646 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:37 AM
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Notnyt, flat to 6hz without a correction file or C-weighting? If not did you use a correction file? I am asking because I want to do these as my last step of tweaking. I need a correction file for sure.
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post #1647 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:40 AM
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Oh yeah, I would think Notnyt's subs will reproduce this scene better than any other ported sub system and he is running half of what to expect. Is lilmikes mic flat to 6 hz without correction files? If so I have one and could finally bust it out.
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post #1648 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:48 AM
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Easy to see the differences with the animation.

There is a FR diff between the 2 at the mic. It may be more or less pronounced at the ears and I suspect that the sonic difference is in the >80 Hz area.
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post #1649 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Since there's no 6 Hz fundamental from either system, there's of course no 2HD at 12 Hz, but the 2HD of the 18 Hz fundamental shows higher THD from the ported system. In this case, it's no doubt masked completely, but I seriously doubt JPC's system (and many other member's as well) would show this kind of performance at reference level, and especially at the +10dBRL level. wink.gif



Where do you get the idea that those Notnyt waterfalls are for playback levels of +10 dBRL? Notnyt did not disclose playback levels used when he generated those waterfalls.

I never implied that my system could compete with Notnyt's system SPL wise.

Now that I look real close I do see that the Notnyt ported subwoofer seems to have 2nd order HD of the 18 Hz fundamental frequency. In particular the 36 Hz content near the top of the waterfall where there is no 6 Hz content at all. Not sure what that means given that the two subwoofers are located in different corners of the room and are not EQ'd properly.
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post #1650 of 2252 Old 02-07-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post



Easy to see the differences with the animation.

There is a FR diff between the 2 at the mic. It may be more or less pronounced at the ears and I suspect that the sonic difference is in the >80 Hz area.



In addition to ported and sealed, there are also two different subwoofer locations in those two waterfalls.
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