Your Home Theater ULF Score - Page 67 - AVS Forum
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post #1981 of 2101 Old 06-18-2014, 08:22 PM
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Dom, which simulated graphs do you need from me? The ones that LTD02 did for my build?


Mktheater was kind enough to calculate my score. I still have that info from our PM's.

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post #1982 of 2101 Old 06-18-2014, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Dom, which simulated graphs do you need from me? The ones that LTD02 did for my build?


Mktheater was kind enough to calculate my score. I still have that info from our PM's.
Send both! Still trying to master the DIY estimates...

Are most sims at 1M ground plane?
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post #1983 of 2101 Old 06-19-2014, 06:01 AM
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Room size = 2720 actually it is a little bit smaller but I don't think that will effect the over all score.
Subs JTR cap s2 and 8x infinity 1260w 1.5 cubes (they just about have the same output in winisd)
is it ok to assume that this is equal to two cap s2's? If so....

10hz= 485
12.5hz= 453
16hz= 412
20hz= 438


that would be 4.5 stars across the board.

How do I figure 5hz?

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #1984 of 2101 Old 06-19-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Send both! Still trying to master the DIY estimates...

Are most sims at 1M ground plane?
So here's the simulated graph from LTD for one of my cabinets with the UXL-18 driver powered my one channel of my iNuke 6000DSP amp.





That graph was for a 11cubic/ft cabinet, mines actually 13cubic/ft but I'm sure its close enough to mine.
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File Type: png LTD-M18 graph.png (14.6 KB, 134 views)

My Gear:

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Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
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post #1985 of 2101 Old 06-19-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
They have a different number of subs...which has the correct sub count?
Neither are my correct scores because the spreadsheet doesn't have my actual subs listed for me to select from.
I am having to approximate my SPL by selecting other subs and quantities to make up the difference.

I'd need you to add these two to the list if you can:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
box models for my missing subs:




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post #1986 of 2101 Old 06-19-2014, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
For those that want to be included, just post your frequency response to 5hz.
I make no claim to the accuracy of my ECM8000 and CM-140 mics, but this is what it is telling me I get:




Wish I had an ACO pacific mic, that would make things easier...
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File Type: png fr2.png (79.6 KB, 119 views)
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post #1987 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

For those that want to be included, just post your frequency response to 5hz.

I have my chart but I never do a max spl reading. This was measured at -20MLV.

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File Type: jpg all subs newest.jpg (78.0 KB, 114 views)

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post #1988 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Post 2 Member Scores Updated
  • MiniHT 4.5 star (10hz)
  • laugsbach - 5 star (12.5hz), 4.5 star (10hz)
 
I've also calculated and added Ralph Potts score. I respect his work, and thought it would be interesting to understand what kind of ULF experience he has in his room.
 
Room Size = 14x23x8 = 2576cf
Sub = SVS PB13-Ultra (15hz mode)
 
1 PB13 = 2.3 SI @ 16hz
 
2576cf / 2.3 SI = 1120@16hz or 4 star
 
So, he's right on the edge of 4 and 3.5 star so he's probably right around reference output at 20hz or so...
Greetings,

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post #1989 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Room size = 2720 actually it is a little bit smaller but I don't think that will effect the over all score.
Subs JTR cap s2 and 8x infinity 1260w 1.5 cubes (they just about have the same output in winisd)
is it ok to assume that this is equal to two cap s2's? If so....

10hz= 485
12.5hz= 453
16hz= 412
20hz= 438


that would be 4.5 stars across the board.

How do I figure 5hz?
Do you have 1 sim of the infinity you can post? I can figure out from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
I have my chart but I never do a max spl reading. This was measured at -20MLV.

Impressive! Nice signal chain...rare to get to 5hz without thought out equipment selection.

That's all it takes to get into the 5hz category. Your ULF score will estimate at what output you can achieve.
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post #1990 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
So here's the simulated graph from LTD for one of my cabinets with the UXL-18 driver powered my one channel of my iNuke 6000DSP amp.





That graph was for a 11cubic/ft cabinet, mines actually 13cubic/ft but I'm sure its close enough to mine.
Here you go:





I basically subtracted 7db from your response to calculate your estimated output. 7db is the aprox. difference between the SI sim, and data-bass's measurements. Not perfect, but should be close.

Nice work! In that small room, it has to be plenty tactile!
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File Type: png jbrown15 Ported SI Estimate.png (6.7 KB, 96 views)
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post #1991 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 05:21 PM
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Thanks Dom! It's crazy to have 5 stars down to 10hz....lol


Pretty crazy what you can do with only 3 grand.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)
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post #1992 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Neither are my correct scores because the spreadsheet doesn't have my actual subs listed for me to select from.
I am having to approximate my SPL by selecting other subs and quantities to make up the difference.

I'd need you to add these two to the list if you can:
Are these sims at 1M? Something seems off. Your Mal-X once I subtract the 7db at 20hz equates to 106db...too low. The UXL-18 is 108, and the FTW-21 is estimated at 110.
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post #1993 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
Greetings,

Thanks for adding this dominguez1!

Regards,
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


At 16hz, a ULF Score of 1148 you are 3.5 stars and can produce an estimated 110db ground plane, 4M distance.

At 20hz, a ULF Score of 902 you are 4.5 stars and can produce an estimated 119db ground plane, 4M distance (above reference output).


The ULF star is just a very general way to group you at each ULF frequency. It becomes more meaningful when you compare others with a similar ULF score or star.

For example, Ralph Potts has a ULF score of 888 (since I added his PC12NSD), and is 4 stars at 16hz. Now you have a little better understanding of his ULF experience as compared to yours as he reviews movies.
Ralph, I actually will be updating your score since you added the PC12NSD. See above!
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post #1994 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi all,

Josh will be measuring a new XV15se before too long so I figured posting our in house data on it won't hurt. I believe this is only the warm weather tests averaged but I will need to triple check that. Cold weather can lead to 1-2dB more output.

16 / 97.2
20 / 107.5

25 / 110.7
31 / 112.9
40 / 114.2
50 / 116.5
63 / 116.7
80 / 117
100 / 116.3

16-100 / 113.7

this is all 2m/rms. Add 9dB to scale to 1m/peak

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Will be revising the XV15SE numbers to the above on the next update.

I imagine Tom feels pretty good about the accuracy of these as his test likely matched very closely to Josh's with the XS15SE and XV30SE
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post #1995 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Do you have 1 sim of the infinity you can post? I can figure out from there.


Impressive! Nice signal chain...rare to get to 5hz without thought out equipment selection.

That's all it takes to get into the 5hz category. Your ULF score will estimate at what output you can achieve.

Thanks! I sent you a pm of sim that LTD02 made for me.

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #1996 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Thanks! I sent you a pm of sim that LTD02 made for me.


The blue line represents 4 infinity 1260ws (as you told me) and produces 109db @ 20hz.

109db - 6db = 103db for 2 drivers
103db - 6db - 97db for 1 driver
97db - 7db = 90db at 20hz for the SI calibration

Based on the above, I calculated the below:



Multiply this by 8 drivers with appropriate power, and your S2 and you get:



Great theater btw! Love the nearfield placement of your infinity's!
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File Type: png Infinity 1260w.png (6.2 KB, 162 views)
File Type: png Pain Infliction ULF Score.png (9.1 KB, 163 views)
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post #1997 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Here you go:





I basically subtracted 7db from your response to calculate your estimated output. 7db is the aprox. difference between the SI sim, and data-bass's measurements. Not perfect, but should be close.

Nice work! In that small room, it has to be plenty tactile!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Thanks Dom! It's crazy to have 5 stars down to 10hz....lol


Pretty crazy what you can do with only 3 grand.
Ugh...that doesn't look right Jbrown...there's no way that 10hz number is correct. The UXL in a sealed design only produces 92.2db at 10hz, so no way a ported design with a 16hz tune can produce 96db at 10hz.

MK, can you run a sim like you've done in the past where you have the SI sim on the same chart as Jbrown's sim?
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post #1998 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 08:06 PM
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I was wondering about that, I know my inroom output is really strong at 10hz though. With just two subs up and running I measured with REW around 123dB.





I know its not scaled correctly but the graph still clearly shows around 123dB at 10hz from just two subs.
I'm hoping to get a chance to take some proper measurements this Sunday if I have a chance.
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File Type: jpg sub meas #2.jpg (33.4 KB, 198 views)

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
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Pioneer VSX-21TXH
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Falcon Screens FVHD105
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post #1999 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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post #2000 of 2101 Old 06-20-2014, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Crazy output for ported...what mic do you use?
I have a Cross-Spectrum UMIK-1 usb mic.


We LTD02 came up with the design we were shooting for a port tune of 15-16hz, but he thinks with the elbow in the port its actually closer to 13-14hz. Which some of my measurements kind of suggest also.

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JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)

Last edited by jbrown15; 06-20-2014 at 10:27 PM.
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post #2001 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


The blue line represents 4 infinity 1260ws (as you told me) and produces 109db @ 20hz.

109db - 6db = 103db for 2 drivers
103db - 6db - 97db for 1 driver
97db - 7db = 90db at 20hz for the SI calibration

Based on the above, I calculated the below:



Multiply this by 8 drivers with appropriate power, and your S2 and you get:



Great theater btw! Love the nearfield placement of your infinity's!

Thanks! Those infinity subs are small and cheap and perfect for behind my seats. I wouldn't use them anywhere else though, because I would definitely go with 18's. I just couldn't fit anything large behind my seats and be able to recline.

Thanks for figuring all of this out for me. Can you figure out 5hz with the chart that I posted or do you need a sim?

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #2002 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I was wondering about that, I know my inroom output is really strong at 10hz though. With just two subs up and running I measured with REW around 123dB.




I know its not scaled correctly but the graph still clearly shows around 123dB at 10hz from just two subs.
I'm hoping to get a chance to take some proper measurements this Sunday if I have a chance.
That smoothing and scale is the problem and why it is misleading.

I ran across another response of yours in a different thread that looks more realistic.

You should probably not use that chart any more as it is not representative of what you're really getting...especially below tune.
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post #2003 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
That smoothing and scale is the problem and why it is misleading.

I ran across another response of yours in a different thread that looks more realistic.

You should probably not use that chart any more as it is not representative of what you're really getting...especially below tune.

Yes but this measurement sweep was taken with my AVR master volume set at like -30 from two subs, the first graph while scaled incorrect was with my AVR at -10 if I recall. I'm not even pushing the subs yet. The first graph was not a max SPL sweep. Take away the null at around 68-70hz and that's a fairly flat graph with very little EQ work on my part to flatten it out. From 60hz down to 10hz there's only about a 7dB difference. That's not bad, I need to get my miniDSP setup and running before I can't really dial everything in. Both of those graphs were with 1/12th smoothing also.


I know the first graph is scaled incorrectly because its increments of 20dBs and the second graph is 5dB increments, but the two graphs both show the same thing, one is just stretched out more from 10hz-30hz.

My Gear:

JTR Noesis 228HT (LCR)
Axiom Audio QS8 surrounds
Sherbourn PA 7-350
Pioneer VSX-21TXH
JVC RS45
Falcon Screens FVHD105
Dual PSA XS30's (gone but not forgotten)

Last edited by jbrown15; 06-21-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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post #2004 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Yes but this measurement sweep was taken with my AVR master volume set at like -30 from two subs, the first graph while scaled incorrect was with my AVR at -10 if I recall. I'm not even pushing the subs yet. The first graph was not a max SPL sweep. Take away the null at around 68-70hz and that's a fairly flat graph with very little EQ work on my part to flatten it out. From 60hz down to 10hz there's only about a 7dB difference. That's not bad, I need to get my miniDSP setup and running before I can't really dial everything in. Both of those graphs were with 1/12th smoothing also.


I know the first graph is scaled incorrectly because its increments of 20dBs and the second graph is 5dB increments, but the two graphs both show the same thing, one is just stretched out more from 10hz-30hz.
The first graph uses the correct logarithmic scale on the x axis, the second one is not using a log scale. There is a simple fix...just reopen the first REW measurement, scale it properly, and re-save the image.

X axis log scale 10-200 Hz
Y axis 85-145(60 dB spread at higher level)

Oddly scaled graphs, which both of those are, make it difficult to get a clear visual representation of the FR

Its not the issue of 5 or 20 db spacing on the Y axis, it is too large of a total spread which makes the FR appear much smoother than it should be. A 60 dB total scale results in 5 dB increments....but if you had a 0-200 dB scale in 5 dB increments, it would still appear overly smooth.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #2005 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 06:53 PM
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For example, improper scaling followed by proper scaling, same exact sweep:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 110 non standard scaling.jpg (63.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 110 scaled properly.jpg (69.3 KB, 13 views)

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #2006 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 06:54 PM
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With eq I can see jbrown flat to 10hz and rhed flat to 5hz. Cutting that is, so I would tune jbrown's to 91db and boost the 65hz-90hz.
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post #2007 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 08:52 PM
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The problem is that 123 dBs at 10 hz with a MV at -10 is way off with a sweep. The mic is not calibrated to correct levels or the bass is running 18 dBs hot. These subs are tuned to 15hz? All of you should extend the graphs to 3-120hz and a range of 105 to 63 dBs just for response. After that then turn the MV up 5 dBs for compression sweeps adjusting the y axis accordingly. How big is the room jbrown and how far are the subs?
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post #2008 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 09:16 PM
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Have the PSA subs been fully updated? Not sure if I need to repost my numbers again?

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

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miniDSP

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post #2009 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
All of you should extend the graphs to 3-120hz and a range of 105 to 63 dBs just for response.
Although there is no "official" rule for scaling graphs, everything I have seen suggests 45-105 dB and low end of roll off to 200 i.e 10-200 or 3-200 or 5-200 depending on extension. Otherwise there is no standardization for how smooth one's graph appears compared to others that are in the more standard format.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #2010 of 2101 Old 06-21-2014, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Have the PSA subs been fully updated? Not sure if I need to repost my numbers again?
Not yet. I'll post the new ulf Calc soon, and let you know .
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