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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Your Home Theater ULF Score
bear123's Avatar bear123 10:22 PM 06-21-2014
Cool, thanks Dom.

jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 10:29 PM 06-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The problem is that 123 dBs at 10 hz with a MV at -10 is way off with a sweep. The mic is not calibrated to correct levels or the bass is running 18 dBs hot. These subs are tuned to 15hz? All of you should extend the graphs to 3-120hz and a range of 105 to 63 dBs just for response. After that then turn the MV up 5 dBs for compression sweeps adjusting the y axis accordingly. How big is the room jbrown and how far are the subs?
The mic was run with the calibration file, the room is 1803cubic/ft and the subs are about 10ft away. I run my speakers and subs level matched to 83dB which is what's used with the Disney WOW disc though. So I guess that's 8dB hot?
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 10:31 PM 06-21-2014
I just need more time to properly set them up and get them fully EQ'd.


Sadly I just don't seem to have much free time lately and its only going to get worse as my wife is expecting our third child in September LOL
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 06:16 AM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
The mic was run with the calibration file, the room is 1803cubic/ft and the subs are about 10ft away. I run my speakers and subs level matched to 83dB which is what's used with the Disney WOW disc though. So I guess that's 8dB hot?
It sounds as if your mic is reading 10db off. You should verify that your mic is correctly calibrated with a spl meter using pink noise test tones. -10 on th AVR running +8db hot should put the subs around 113db. If you were actually running +18db hot the bass would be drowning out the mains or atleast sound very unbalanced.

Congrats on the third child but it sounds like your free time is being spent working on the wrong things.

Subwoofers come first, making babies 2nd.
MKtheater's Avatar MKtheater 07:32 AM 06-22-2014
I forgot which is the bottom number but as long as one gets 5 dB increments on the y axis. 3-120 hz is the LFE bandwidth so one can see their crossovers effects as well. We like to see the signal chain drop off too.

I meant level calibration with the mic, not the correction files. What levels are the Disney sweeps? Are they 0 dBFS?
notnyt's Avatar notnyt 10:41 AM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
With eq I can see jbrown flat to 10hz and rhed flat to 5hz. Cutting that is, so I would tune jbrown's to 91db and boost the 65hz-90hz.
Boosting below tune is no good.
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 10:51 AM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Boosting below tune is no good.

Agreed, I won't be boosting anything below the port tune. Which is around 14hz, Notnyt what was your port tune again?
notnyt's Avatar notnyt 10:52 AM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Agreed, I won't be boosting anything below the port tune. Which is around 14hz, Notnyt what was your port tune again?
aimed for 15, ended up with 14.7
Pain Infliction's Avatar Pain Infliction 12:07 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Boosting below tune is no good.

I never said boosting below tune. I said cut everything to 91db and then boost the 65 to 90 area.

For rhed, I would tune everything to 75db.
rhed's Avatar rhed 12:25 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
I never said boosting below tune. I said cut everything to 91db and then boost the 65 to 90 area.

For rhed, I would tune everything to 75db.
Definately sounds like a plan Pain. Though, I'll just wait till the 215's,S8's, and new amps arrive and redo all the calibrations again. Probably might move the subs around too and see if my room can give me a more better response. The latest measurement I posted was just a auto calibration from the Antimode dual core. No house curve or boosting. Then I reran MCACC. I just redid everything since my electrician came by for a day and did work on my dedicated circuits. And to see if I could get bumped up from the 10hz category to 5hz category.
Pain Infliction's Avatar Pain Infliction 12:39 PM 06-22-2014
rhed, you actually have a great response. No auto calibration that I have seen can do it like a person can, but it seems like your room and subs work well together. That makes tuning so nice and easy and I bet it wouldn't take long to get a flat tune out of your subs. Mixing the 215's in with the cap s2's might make it a little bit harder though. Going to have to set some delays around port tune on the 215's. Are you still getting the other two cap s2's? Maybe that is another reason you had an electrician come by?
rhed's Avatar rhed 01:04 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
rhed, you actually have a great response. No auto calibration that I have seen can do it like a person can, but it seems like your room and subs work well together. That makes tuning so nice and easy and I bet it wouldn't take long to get a flat tune out of your subs. Mixing the 215's in with the cap s2's might make it a little bit harder though. Going to have to set some delays around port tune on the 215's. Are you still getting the other two cap s2's? Maybe that is another reason you had an electrician come by?
I'm no worries with the 215's. As with movies, I would still run them as small and X over 60 or 80hz. But with music is the main reason for me with those speakers. So when I listen to music I'll set subs to "no" and "large" for mains in pure direct mode. That was my plan.. As with the two more caps? My wife told it's either that or the Sony projector.. Dang.. Don't know which way to go.. Lol..
Pain Infliction's Avatar Pain Infliction 02:37 PM 06-22-2014
Depends on what Sony projector and how big your screen is. However, you already have FOUR cap S2's! It's all good though because I am more of an audiophile than a videophile too.
rhed's Avatar rhed 04:10 PM 06-22-2014
Yea so am I. More audio then video. Btw, I meant JVC not Sony. As far as which one, I don't know. As I will decide which route by end of this year or early next year.
BassThatHz's Avatar BassThatHz 05:23 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Are these sims at 1M? Something seems off. Your Mal-X once I subtract the 7db at 20hz equates to 106db...too low. The UXL-18 is 108, and the FTW-21 is estimated at 110.
I put in the single coil numbers instead of the dual coil. I was wondering why there was a bump in the response. LOL

It's 1m anechoic.




For the FTW-21 in the same box I get this.


Both of these are way over their rated power.

FTW 21 has 34mm and 1.2kW RMS.
Mal-X 21 has 32mm and 1.5kW RMS.

Which looks like this:


Attached: 1.png (6.0 KB)  2.png (26.8 KB)  3.png (29.5 KB)  4.png (29.3 KB)  5.png (29.3 KB) 
BassThatHz's Avatar BassThatHz 05:57 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Ugh...that doesn't look right Jbrown...there's no way that 10hz number is correct. The UXL in a sealed design only produces 92.2db at 10hz, so no way a ported design with a 16hz tune can produce 96db at 10hz.
MK, can you run a sim like you've done in the past where you have the SI sim on the same chart as Jbrown's sim?
Here is what I modeled for it:

With a 48db/oct filter at tune you could probably squeak this number out by avoiding bottoming out at 13hz.




Or limit the power so that you can get a 10hz score (your are probably somewhere in-between these two extremes with a reasonable filter):





Here it is in a sealed box, just for comparison:

Attached: 1.png (32.0 KB)  2.png (25.6 KB)  3.png (21.0 KB)  4.png (31.7 KB)  5.png (26.3 KB) 
BassThatHz's Avatar BassThatHz 06:42 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
It sounds as if your mic is reading 10db off. You should verify that your mic is correctly calibrated with a spl meter using pink noise test tones. -10 on th AVR running +8db hot should put the subs around 113db. If you were actually running +18db hot the bass would be drowning out the mains or atleast sound very unbalanced.
That's one thing that I like about having the TermLab meter, it's calibration is constant, factory set into the silicon and then they submerge it into epoxy, it's all glued in place and not overridable.
It has to be that way otherwise people would be tampering with it to win and make money and sponsors at bass-comps.

Not only that but it doesn't register non-bass, so thumping it with 140dbA of 300-20000hz from your JBL line-array won't do ANYTHING to improve your bass-score.
BUT that also makes it incomparable to any other flat mic, or G/C/A weighted mic on the planet; thus those mic's will always read the higher 140dbA value etc.

It's pretty much plug and play which is handy.
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 07:34 PM 06-22-2014
BassThathz, maybe if you end up coming to the GTG at some point you could help me try to measure my subs? And dial them in a little better?
BassThatHz's Avatar BassThatHz 09:34 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
BassThathz, maybe if you end up coming to the GTG at some point you could help me try to measure my subs? And dial them in a little better?
It looks like you have them dialed-in perfectly already, if your mic isn't lying to us.
Hard to say 100% for sure unless my ears are in the room; I know what musical bass sounds like (or at least I think I do ).

What's weird is that you don't have any roll off until at least 9hz, which is weird for a ported sub, although the UXL-18 is beefy (to say the least) so there could be some room gain that is adding to it(?)
At 7hz your ~14hz tune should be unloading like crazy and/or be filtered out by the high pass filter (if you enabled one).



Can you take a sweep to 2 or 5hz?

Take a look at NotNyt's ported subs, they are down -3db @ 12.5hz or so. Your UXL-18's should be very similar, although he has a 5000cuft room so you'll have more room gain.


If your mic has no roll-off until 1hz with ported subs, then that's a clear sign something is wrong with
the soundcard/mic (USB though right?)
that or, you have some real funky boost going on...
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 09:50 PM 06-22-2014
If you take a look at the other graph from the previous page there's one of my graphs that's scaled better in 5dB increments. It definitely shows some roll of below the port tune, I have a high pass filter set at 13hz to prevent the drivers from bottoming out.

Although notnyt has 8 LMS-U drivers I would think that we would have similar ULF performance considering his room is 5000cubic/ft and mine is only 1800cubic/ft.
BassThatHz's Avatar BassThatHz 10:56 PM 06-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
If you take a look at the other graph from the previous page there's one of my graphs that's scaled better in 5dB increments. It definitely shows some roll of below the port tune, I have a high pass filter set at 13hz to prevent the drivers from bottoming out.

Although notnyt has 8 LMS-U drivers I would think that we would have similar ULF performance considering his room is 5000cubic/ft and mine is only 1800cubic/ft.
Based on my box model above of 98db @ 10hz for 1; for 4 it would be +12db or about ~110db.



Have you tried lowering 50hz by 3db and increasing 67hz by 7db to smooth it? That would get you closer to +-3db from 100 to 13hz, which is darn good.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 09:35 PM 06-23-2014
Thanks for the charts bassthathz! Busy traveling for work this week, but when I get some time will update!
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 09:44 PM 06-23-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Have you tried lowering 50hz by 3db and increasing 67hz by 7db to smooth it? That would get you closer to +-3db from 100 to 13hz, which is darn good.

I'll give that I try when I get a chance, thanks for the suggestion.
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 12:00 AM 06-24-2014
^^ you have the 10db vertical scale. The graph has about 12db drop from 10 to 5hz.
rhed's Avatar rhed 12:06 AM 06-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ you have the 10db vertical scale. The graph has about 12db drop from 10 to 5hz.

Ok.. What does that mean? Sorry i'm still new to this measurement stuffs.. lol
Btw, Im using a cross spectrum labs mic.
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 12:12 AM 06-24-2014
^^ it means your output from 10 to 5hz drops tremendously. Depends on your max output at 5hz which your graph does not show, you might not have reference or sufficient output at 5hz to be felt. Scale your vertical to 5db and use 1/12 or no smoothing to make it easier to interpret. You also have a 60hz dip. What is your crossover?
bear123's Avatar bear123 12:14 AM 06-24-2014
Most graphs I am seeing are scaled horribly which makes it impossible to see a true representation for the FR.

X-axis 45-105 dB (5-125 makes it appear way to smooth, as does 1/6th smoothing)

Y-axis 5/10-200 (oddball scaling here drastically affects how smooth the graph looks as well)
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 12:14 AM 06-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Ok.. What does that mean? Sorry i'm still new to this measurement stuffs.. lol
Btw, Im using a cross spectrum labs mic.

rhed, I know I don't give two cr@ps but some would frown on posting graphs with 1/6th smoothing. I know the graphs that I've posted were 1/12th smoothing, so I don't see it as a big deal..lol


But I know guys were making comments about mine being 1/12th ..... but I got a good laugh out of the posts.
bear123's Avatar bear123 12:25 AM 06-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
rhed, I know I don't give two cr@ps but some would frown on posting graphs with 1/6th smoothing. I know the graphs that I've posted were 1/12th smoothing, so I don't see it as a big deal..lol


But I know guys were making comments about mine being 1/12th ..... but I got a good laugh out of the posts.
Well, if people are taking the time to try to measure their room and improve response, improper scaling and excess smoothing simply hides things and does not make them better. Or, does not help one to visualize their FR in an accurate way in order to see if improvement is needed or not. Take this identical sweep, first with meaningless scaling that hides everything, then scaled properly:
Attached: 1-6th bad scaling awmergerd look how smooth.jpg (58.8 KB)  proper scaling, how it really looks.jpg (68.0 KB) 
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 12:36 AM 06-24-2014
If the second graph was his it really isn't that bad, find a way to fix the null at 38hz and pull down the peak at 60-62hz and that's a pretty respectable graph from 70hz and down.
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